Make way for Cherokee @ JFK
- Thread starter WannFly
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Tim Taylor
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Toolman
That's the way it's supposed to work!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hats off to all. It started with the pilot seeing the problem, making a decision and ‘TELLING’ ATC what he needed. So many of these things turn into a circus because a pilot doesn’t take the bull by the horns
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
I was wondering about that but don’t want to question the Cherokee guy since I wasn’t there. But it sure did seem like there were several (not just those two) others in the same area VFR who seemed to be just fine. Again, wasnt there and not questioning the pilot for making a conservative choice at all.
WannFly
Final Approach
the cirrus was at 300.... the only time i am at 300 feet is on final about to land, sometimes i fly between 500 - 800 .. but not for long and i have a whole world of various fields to land here.. cant imagine flying at that level over a concrete jungle or open waters
Weather reports can often paint an entirely different picture than what actually exists. And many pilots have no qualms about VFR flight in IMC. I'm not suggesting that either was happening here however.
GMascelli
En-Route
One of my friends that I fly with. Once he landed I had sent him text about wanting to fly with the big boys. He called once the plane was secure.
It's typical for JFK to send you up the coast VFR at 500, he was headed to Republic. He saw the wx change and made a 180. He is not one to ever fly into IMC, he's a good pilot, familiar with the airspace and made a good call to turn around. Always better to try another day.
I should add he was flying up to meet his daughter and grandkids. He flew out the next day, no getthereitis.
It's typical for JFK to send you up the coast VFR at 500, he was headed to Republic. He saw the wx change and made a 180. He is not one to ever fly into IMC, he's a good pilot, familiar with the airspace and made a good call to turn around. Always better to try another day.
I should add he was flying up to meet his daughter and grandkids. He flew out the next day, no getthereitis.
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He did good.
I still can’t imagine flying sub 500 there even in perfect weather. Not my cup of tea.
jspilot
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Except if you look at the charts around JFK you will see that the floor of the bravo does not start until 500ft just off the coast of Long Island in that area. It’s extremeley common during the summertime especially, for a steady stream of Helicopters and single engine pistons, to fly in and around that area at very low altitudes to avoid the bravo. It’s also common for this route to be used when flying up the Hudson on the “skyline tour.”
I’m a local Long Island pilot and I’ve done it once... that was enough. It’s fun but literally 0 safety margin. Whenever I go west, I request the bravo clearance and the controllers are fine with it. You just end up flying directly over JFK and then they vector you once past the airport. The New York controllers are fantastic and some of the calmest and most efficient controllers out there. Just don’t screw up and they love you!
GMascelli
En-Route
Me either! I flew him up to Republic twice in the past to pick up his plane, I filed. I'm not doing that 500 or below up the island to Republic crap.
WannFly
Final Approach
Not disputing, just saying the pilots who fly over there under 500 have bigger brass than me, I ain’t doing it
jspilot
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Yeah i agree. It’s really unsettling not just because you are out of glide range to any land but because on a nice VFR day their is a ton of traffic. I often wonder that if the flying public knew their were all the bugsmashers were flying so close to their airliners if they would rally for some changes( even though it is safe for sure!)
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Great move by this guy. I'm Not sure why JFK declared an emergency for him - he's got the right to land at Kennedy and didn't have an issue seeing the airport. I'm a little surprised the Cirrus and the Sikorsky continued, though who knows what their minimums were?
For those familiar - I was under the impression that this corridor goes along a beach (Rockaway?). Didn't the jerk who pretended to lose his engine who landed on the beach do exactly this?
You'd love the San Diego Bay Tour then.
There is a beach, no?
For those familiar - I was under the impression that this corridor goes along a beach (Rockaway?). Didn't the jerk who pretended to lose his engine who landed on the beach do exactly this?
You'd love the San Diego Bay Tour then.
There is a beach, no?
jspilot
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jspilot
Yup you are correct. There is a beach on the entire South and North Shore of Long Island but during summer months these beaches are packed with people and 95% of the beach is covered. Plus, the sand is soft and there is a heavy tilt towards the water- not ideal for landing on.
He has the right to do that, granted by the FARs. But, administratively, doesn't he need a landing reservation approved by ATC prior to landing at this very busy Class Bravo airport in advance? ATC's emergency declaration for this pilot made this landing without conflict with any FAR or administrative procedure, and covered ATC's butt for any possible separation issues that may have occurred between the GA plane and commercial traffic, and between one or more commercial plane as they went through the go-around dance as may have been necessary. Good Job to the controller(s).
Yes and Yes, almost. He landed on the beach, not on the runways. His engine was running a teensy bit rough, as I remember.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-yor...affic-controllers-recordings-article-1.109667
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sometimes ATC declares an emergency not so much for the pilot but for themselves. If they might have to do something that conflicts with ‘normal’ procedure, the declaration justifies it. They did send Aerolineas around so he could land.
C-1 PILOT
Pre-takeoff checklist
With the other aircraft transiting the JFK exclusion, at or below 500, something I’ve done a hundred times over the years, it appeared do able. However and I’m not going to second guess the Pilot, he had an immediate issue with weather that he was uncomfortable with that had him divert to JFK.
When I was based at FRG in the 90’s, we lost a Tiger owner who perished at the Jones Beach Inlet, while transiting west to east back to FRG. I believe he flew into a marine layer blowing in off the Atlantic while at or below 500. It could have been the issue with the Pilot in the original post.
The JFK exclusion is not bad and is a handy tool if ATC is busy and you need to fly west or east. You are never or at least shouldn’t be far off the beach when doing so. It’s also nice to know, that if you had to ditch and were talking and squawking, emergency responders might be there before you splash in.
When I was based at FRG in the 90’s, we lost a Tiger owner who perished at the Jones Beach Inlet, while transiting west to east back to FRG. I believe he flew into a marine layer blowing in off the Atlantic while at or below 500. It could have been the issue with the Pilot in the original post.
The JFK exclusion is not bad and is a handy tool if ATC is busy and you need to fly west or east. You are never or at least shouldn’t be far off the beach when doing so. It’s also nice to know, that if you had to ditch and were talking and squawking, emergency responders might be there before you splash in.
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
I don’t really understand why so many do it. Its not that hard (ok some days it can be) to get a NY bravo clearance and it’s certainly not that hard to fly over it. Ive never done that low level shoreline transition and I have 1000+ hours of flying in that airspace.
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
Honestly, controllers in general do a very good job. Everybody has a bad or grumpy day, but in general I feel like these guys get a worse rap than they deserve. If you're s halfway competent pilot controllers tend to be pretty awesome
What bad rap do controllers get?
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
"This ******* flew me right through the localizer, turned me too late, and had to resequence me!" <- you hear a lot of that kind of stuff.. so maybe not a bad rap, but a lot of pilots seem to engage "confrontation mode" when referring to ATC
Around LAX they're unusually accomodating
James331
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Different experience levels probably factored in too, or their ability to go IFR I’d needed, lots of low level traffic up and down the shore around there
NY controllers are fantastic. I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them. Doesn’t matter how busy they are, they always seem to go above and beyond.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
NY, SoCal and NorCal controllers are all excellent to work with. This isn't Phoenix that scared people out of FF.
Huckster79
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There is no argument it was undoable- 110% undoable- if he as Pilot In Command believed it to be undoable, to continue on as if all was fine would have been a dereliction of duty.
He can armchair quarterback himself and every decision he made as PIC that day, you know he will because we all would...
We often say post crash, if ya truly need something you need to ask.. this could have been avoided if the pilot had simply asked/ did......
Great job to both..
He can armchair quarterback himself and every decision he made as PIC that day, you know he will because we all would...
We often say post crash, if ya truly need something you need to ask.. this could have been avoided if the pilot had simply asked/ did......
Great job to both..
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Because it was an emergency, which includes an urgency condition: "A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition."