magic drugs against covid-19?

Palmpilot said:
Shouldn't we really be comparing the number of students and schools per capita? Higher population means higher resources too.
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Point being the complex differences in schools, public employees, private employers, economic profiles etc, etc, weren't taken account of in the article at all, which is why I initially said "glossed over", an observation with which you took apparent issue. Look, I'm not saying NYC handled this correctly. Neither has most of the rest of the nation. I'm simply saying Seattle isn't NYC, and to say " if only they had handled it the same way" is simplistic at best. I have to give NYC credit for eventually getting it's hands around it, where other parts of the country refuse to learn the lessons.
 
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Juliet Hotel said:
From what I've been told by those who have done both, a 747 handles very much like a cub, so long as you fly it by the numbers. Its way bigger and thus things can get way more deadly in the blink of an eye. But if you stop trying to fly it by the seat of your pants (like you can get away with in a cub) and actually listen to the engineers (scientists) and just fly it by the numbers, it handles just like a cub. There's a lesson in there I think.
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No matter how "by the numbers" you fly it, you aren't getting ia 747 into a 1500' grass strip.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Trolling. You mean the thing that 5 year olds and those who are mentally 5 years old do?
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Yeah. It's a lot like that. That is how 5 yr old deal with other 5 yr olds.
That is not a defense of Trump. That is a condemnation of the entire MSM and the way they deal with the public.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Maybe because the only reference is to NYC as having a population "somewhat denser" than Seattle. A bit thin on the compare and contrast, don't you think? Kind of like saying the 747 has somewhat different handling characteristics than a 152.
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The "somewhat denser" comment reflects a profound ignorance of the social mechanisms that have evolved in the context of perpetual overcrowding as a means of making something inherently unhealthy at least survivable -- most of the time. Unfortunately, these same mechanisms also make the city vulnerable to catastrophe, on whose edge the city actually borders even in good times, although few people who live there realize it.

Adaptations to the bizarre tend to be maladaptive in the context of the normal.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
The "somewhat denser" comment reflects a profound ignorance of the social mechanisms that have evolved in the context of perpetual overcrowding as a means of making something inherently unhealthy at least survivable -- most of the time. Unfortunately, these same mechanisms also make the city vulnerable to catastrophe, on whose edge the city actually borders even in good times, although few people who live there realize it.

Adaptations to the bizarre tend to be maladaptive in the context of the normal.

Rich
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Well said, Rich, and makes the point better than my groping about. It is indeed a delicate balance.
 
JOhnH said:
Yeah. It's a lot like that. That is how 5 yr old deal with other 5 yr olds.
That is not a defense of Trump. That is a condemnation of the entire MSM and the way they deal with the public.
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People have a tendency to exaggerate the faults of others.
 
They're trying famotidine now:

https://www.newsweek.com/famotidine-heartburn-medication-covid-19-new-york-1500341

It would be nice -- for the people -- if the magic bullet turned out to be an existing, off-patent medication.

I also read somewhere that one of the alkaloids in Uncaria tomentosa ("cat's claw") was being investigated because of its known efficacy in reducing inflammation, moderating the autoimmune response, and calming cytokine storms. I forgot to bookmark the page and can't find the article, though.

Rich
 
Also saw a funny that a couple of countries noticed LESS hospitalization of smokers. EX-smokers were very good.

LOL. They have no idea why.

I only mention it because at least one ER was carefully experimenting with adding nicotine to the cocktails being tried.
 
Tuberculosis is endemic in Africa, and there is an active vaccination program in progress there.

Africa has not been affected as severly by Covid-19. The BCG variety of the Tuberculosis vaccine may be a good attenuator for the COVID-19 virus.

-Skip (NOT a MD or medical researcher!)
 
denverpilot said:
Also saw a funny that a couple of countries noticed LESS hospitalization of smokers. EX-smokers were very good.

LOL. They have no idea why.

I only mention it because at least one ER was carefully experimenting with adding nicotine to the cocktails being tried.
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They should know why, at least in the case of current smokers. Nicotine suppresses cytokine production, which seems to be the actual cause of death in most COVID cases. I have no idea why ex-smokers would have better outcomes, though.

Rich
 
denverpilot said:
Also saw a funny that a couple of countries noticed LESS hospitalization of smokers. EX-smokers were very good.

LOL. They have no idea why.

I only mention it because at least one ER was carefully experimenting with adding nicotine to the cocktails being tried.
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Another interesting factoid that I've been told several times by people whom I think would know is that using a nicotine replacement (a patch or lozenge, for example; and maybe vaping, as well) reduces cancer risk compared to quitting cold turkey.

Rich
 
Skip Miller said:
Tuberculosis is endemic in Africa, and there is an active vaccination program in progress there.

Africa has not been affected as severly by Covid-19. The BCG variety of the Tuberculosis vaccine may be a good attenuator for the COVID-19 virus.

-Skip (NOT a MD or medical researcher!)
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The only African country that has done significant testing is South Africa and they have pretty much the strictest lockdown on the planet that I know of outside of the original China lockdown:

1) They are under effective Marshal Law complete with an 8p to 5a curfue with the full military force deployed to the streets for enforcement. There are passes for essential workers.

2) The ONLY places you can travel to/shop at is your closest grocery store, drug store, gas station or hospital and the ONLY goods you can buy doing the lockdown are:
a) Raw Food, non-alcoholic beverages, animal food
b) Cleaning supplies & hygiene products
c) Medical supplies
d) Fuel
e) Airtime and Electricity

It specifically excludes alcohol & cigarettes and any prepared food. Even the personal transportation of alcohol is illegal.

3) No restaurants, bars, cafes, coffee shops are open in any form.

4) No going outside apart from essential shopping & services. No exercise, no walking your dog.

5) All domestic flights suspended. No non-South African returning arrivals allowed. Returning South Africans are quarantined for 14 days.

6) Illegal to refuse coronavirus treatment and quarantine. People who knowingly defy quarantine while positive are being charged with attempted murder.
 
denverpilot said:
Also saw a funny that a couple of countries noticed LESS hospitalization of smokers. EX-smokers were very good.

LOL. They have no idea why.

I only mention it because at least one ER was carefully experimenting with adding nicotine to the cocktails being tried.
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Much of the mortality from the virus comes in the third stage, when cytokine storming causes the body to essentially attack itself in trying to eliminate the virus. It's thought that nicotine from smoking mutes that reaction. The problem is that as the nicotine in the smoker's system is eliminated due their inability to smoke, the ability to suppress storming is also reduced.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Much of the mortality from the virus comes in the third stage, when cytokine storming causes the body to essentially attack itself in trying to eliminate the virus. It's thought that nicotine from smoking mutes that reaction. The problem is that as the nicotine in the smoker's system is eliminated due their inability to smoke, the ability to suppress storming is also reduced.
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Makes sense. Be interesting to see if the nicotine test helps non-smokers. Haven’t seen it *widely* tested but hospitals usually have some supply on hand for avoiding nic fits in their smoking patients stuck inside.
 
Trying to be apolitical, I cant imagine any other past president of either party, or respected world leader musing and speculating at a news conference of such a serious topic, nor Putting their gut feel out there on such a grave subject confusing people (not speaking of the injections here but similar, like the magic pill that wasn't) vs just simply and soberly relaying on the information from experts...

Left, right, democrat or republican, libertarian or green, all partisan politics aside; theres an amount of decorum and sobriety that should be sacrosanct to holding the most powerful office in the world.
 
Huckster79 said:
Trying to be apolitical, I cant imagine any other past president of either party, or respected world leader musing and speculating at a news conference of such a serious topic, nor Putting their gut feel out there on such a grave subject confusing people (not speaking of the injections here but similar, like the magic pill that wasn't) vs just simply and soberly relaying on the information from experts...

Left, right, democrat or republican, libertarian or green, all partisan politics aside; theres an amount of decorum and sobriety that should be sacrosanct to holding the most powerful office in the world.
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It’s really not the most powerful. We’ve got a very separated powers and even massively distributed government for a reason. The Most Powerful thing is mostly marketing fodder.

I don’t hate the guy but agree that the bloviating is worthless. But there’s also nothing useful out of the ones who read from prepared scripts on teleprompters.

The vast majority of it could be a one liner as far as actual useful info goes.

I get a kick out of bored people who would NEVER have any time at all for watching an entire political press conference ever, any day of their lives, just now figuring out how useless they are. Haha. They’ve definitely never watched replays of the sausage getting made on C-SPAN when they couldn’t sleep at 2AM. LOL.

I’ve had to explain to friends in other countries that nobody normal here pays much attention to ANYTHING out of DC, in normal times. Many friends in Western civilizations have bought into that “Most Powerful Man” garbage fairy tale even harder than we do as kids when they first teach us that drivel. They are really into it.

Most adults here certainly don’t set alarms in their calendar app to watch any politician at a podium. Very rare.

I tell them to just turn it off zzzz. They’ll experience a great sense of mental well being and anything actually news will be spread quickly by press releases and social media.

There’s very little use these days for a taking head at a podium. But the sound bite media is overjoyed. :)

Tiger King is less of a waste of time before during and afterward. LOL.
 
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denverpilot said:
It’s really not the most powerful. We’ve got a very separated powers and even massively distributed government for a reason. The Most Powerful thing is mostly marketing fodder.

I don’t hate the guy but agree that the bloviating is worthless. But there’s also nothing useful out of the ones who read from prepared scripts on teleprompters.

The vast majority of it could be a one liner as far as actual useful info goes.

I get a kick out of bored people who would NEVER have any time at all for watching an entire political press conference ever, any day of their lives, just now figuring out how useless they are. Haha. They’ve definitely never watched replays of the sausage getting made on C-SPAN when they couldn’t sleep at 2AM. LOL.

I’ve had to explain to friends in other countries that nobody normal here pays much attention to ANYTHING out of DC, in normal times. Many friends in Western civilizations have bought into that “Most Powerful Man” garbage fairy tale even harder than we do as kids when they first teach us that drivel. They are really into it.

Most adults here certainly don’t set alarms in their calendar app to watch any politician at a podium. Very rare.

I tell them to just turn it off zzzz. They’ll experience a great sense of mental well being and anything actually news will be spread quickly by press releases and social media.

There’s very little use these days for a taking head at a podium. But the sound bite media is overjoyed. :)

Tiger King is less of a waist of time before during and afterward. LOL.
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Responses to Trump's thinking-out-loud style depend mainly on what people already think of Trump. The same goes for Cuomo, de Bozo, and the rest of them. There's no shortage of musing, speculation, or stupidity going around. People just interpret it in the light of what they already think about the person spewing it.

For people like me who think they're all full of ****, it becomes a matter of learning their games and styles for the sole purpose of trying to filter out what little they say that's important from the rest of the garbage. With Trump, a lot of the garbage is just thinking out loud -- public brainstorming, as it were -- that can be safely discarded because it means nothing until and unless it finds its way into actual policy.

Cuomo, for his part, does the same thing, but more elegantly. He uses "the tease" to hint at something he's thinking about doing, but doesn't give any details until a few days later. My guess is that he does this to gain time to gauge the responses on social media. I've noticed that lots of Twitter comments on his speculation wind up making it into the actual policies a few days later.

Of course, Twitter is also a cesspool of tribalism. That puts the politicians in the same position as the public: having to try to filter out the occasional gold rings from the tidal waves of turds floating by. But I suppose that's still better than relying solely on the symphony of sycophants who are paid to be advisers.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
<SNIP>

Of course, Twitter is also a cesspool of tribalism. That puts the politicians in the same position as the public: having to try to filter out the occasional gold rings from the tidal waves of turds floating by. But I suppose that's still better than relying solely on the symphony of sycophants who are paid to be advisers.

Rich
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Almost all social media is, as is much of the news media. I appreciate the efforts of the moderators in this forum for their efforts in keeping the cesspit from overflowing.
 
bbchien said:
Remdesivir. Shortens the disease by 4 days. Fabulously expensive. For the ICU only.
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Reduces fatalities by 30% as well.

Am I getting this right? (Dropped from 11.6% to 8% in the study).
 
bbchien said:
Remdesivir. Shortens the disease by 4 days. Fabulously expensive. For the ICU only.
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Karen confirmed HCA is trialing that network wide whenever they can get it, as soon as I read that to her, Doc.

Which basically means they’ve seen some results or it wouldn’t be in the internal scuttlebutt.

Her level and specialty probably won’t get follow up detailed study info, but they get a lot of trials and other internal messages surrounding what’s working and not inside the company.

Putting stuff out too soon via wider PR channels can’t happen though without approvals and lawyers and...
 
How many people? I heard 19? Is that enough for good statistics? Hope the good news holds.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
How many people? I heard 19? Is that enough for good statistics? Hope the good news holds.
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All the trials start really small. “Do no harm...”

It’s only when they start seeing a particular treatment really change odds by a “reasonable” amount that they can expand them past even a few.

And lowering by four days is just barely there... on something that can last a month.

But... when you’re losing the patient... or think you’re going to... ideas have to be tried...
 
At least remdesivir has the advantage of actually targeting a viral target protein, unlike some other touted therapeutics. Remdesivir may not be optimised for SARS-CoV-2, but its molecular mechanism provides clues as to how to design something better. Coronaviruses have some clever tricks up their sleeves to evade some typical antiviral agents that target viral RNA polymerases.
 
denverpilot said:
All the trials start really small. “Do no harm...”

It’s only when they start seeing a particular treatment really change odds by a “reasonable” amount that they can expand them past even a few.

And lowering by four days is just barely there... on something that can last a month.

But... when you’re losing the patient... or think you’re going to... ideas have to be tried...
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All very true, but I don't read much more than "it is worth continuing and expanding the trials"
This gives some more information, from another study:
"Findings
Between Feb 6, 2020, and March 12, 2020, 237 patients were enrolled and randomly assigned to a treatment group (158 to remdesivir and 79 to placebo); one patient in the placebo group who withdrew after randomisation was not included in the ITT population. Remdesivir use was not associated with a difference in time to clinical improvement (hazard ratio 1·23 [95% CI 0·87–1·75]). Although not statistically significant, patients receiving remdesivir had a numerically faster time to clinical improvement than those receiving placebo among patients with symptom duration of 10 days or less (hazard ratio 1·52 [0·95–2·43]). Adverse events were reported in 102 (66%) of 155 remdesivir recipients versus 50 (64%) of 78 placebo recipients. Remdesivir was stopped early because of adverse events in 18 (12%) patients versus four (5%) patients who stopped placebo early.
Interpretation
In this study of adult patients admitted to hospital for severe COVID-19, remdesivir was not associated with statistically significant clinical benefits. However, the numerical reduction in time to clinical improvement in those treated earlier requires confirmation in larger studies."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31022-9/fulltext

This agrees with lowering the treatment time.
 
Just read about a trial of thousands. The FDA is now very interested. I hope I have stock in Gilead Biosciences, the makers of remdesivir. Works about like Tamiflu, which is still the best and only influenza treatment outside of immunization.
 
chemgeek said:
At least remdesivir has the advantage of actually targeting a viral target protein, unlike some other touted therapeutics. Remdesivir may not be optimised for SARS-CoV-2, but its molecular mechanism provides clues as to how to design something better. Coronaviruses have some clever tricks up their sleeves to evade some typical antiviral agents that target viral RNA polymerases.
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It targets adenosine metabolism, which like a cancer drug attenuates fast replication, and when the virus is about to kill you, it, not you is doing most of the adenosine metabolism.
 
bbchien said:
It targets adenosine metabolism, which like a cancer drug attenuates fast replication, and when the virus is about to kill you, it, not you is doing most of the adenosine metabolism.
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Remdesivir is an "impostor" molecule targets the viral RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (nsp12). It works by inserting itself by mimicing and occasionally replacing adenosine where it occurs in the growing RNA chain being copied by that enzyme. The chemical structure of the incorporated remdesivir clogs up the RNA polymerase only after another 3-4 nucleotides get added to the copied RNA chain, thus evading the proofreading exonuclease (nsp14) that might remove it if it were on the end of the growing chain. The molecular reason for the blockage caused by remdesivir is rather subtle and possibly unique to coronaviruses. RNA chains being copied by nsp12 thus get terminated prematurely leading to nonviable RNA copies. The structure of remdesivir fortuitously is not recognized by human DNA polymerases or mitochondrial RNA polymerase, greatly reducing its toxicity and side effects. Unfortunately, it is probably not the best tuned substrate for nsp12, so like many antivirals it is not a wonder drug, but has some effect in reducing viral load. The mechanism of action, a delayed blockage of the viral RNA polymerase, is shared with some other RNA polymerase antivirals that are effective against viruses that have proofreading exonucleases.
 
deonb said:
Reduces fatalities by 30% as well.

Am I getting this right? (Dropped from 11.6% to 8% in the study).
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I do not think the mortality rate differences were statistically significant. But the shortening of the course of disease was apparently statistically significant. That doesn't mean it doesn't have an affect on mortality, but this study does not provide sufficient evidence to be confident (say to 95% probability) in that assertion.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Trolling. You mean the thing that 5 year olds and those who are mentally 5 years old do?
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Funny since half the posts in this thread, including yours, are trolling.

I am in favor of human trials with a sample size of 7.6 billion.
 
bflynn said:
Funny since half the posts in this thread, including yours, are trolling.
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The list of people I would not want to see elected to the office of President is long and definitely includes myself. I guess I expect better from people in that position than I would be capable of myself. I have the same kind of expectation for other positions as well. Brain surgeons, oil tanker captains, nuclear power plant designers etc. Perhaps I'm a bit unreasonable in that respect.
 
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