Lucky escape - LSA reportedly caught in 757 wake turbulence

AV8R_87

AV8R_87

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Smashed hard into the ground, but occupants survived. ADS-B trace has the 757 passing them as it lands on the upwind runway. Looks like the winds were light from the west at the time, could potentially push the vortices towards the LSA.

Any opinions from the controllers here?

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Accident Evektor EV-97 Harmony LSA N377YG, Sunday 11 February 2024

On February 11, 2024, about 1035 Pacific standard time, an Evektor-Aerotechnik Harmony LSA, N377YG, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Santa Ana, Californi...
aviation-safety.net
 
AV8R_87 said:
Smashed hard into the ground, but occupants survived. ADS-B trace has the 757 passing them as it lands on the upwind runway. Looks like the winds were light from the west at the time, could potentially push the vortices towards the LSA.

Any opinions from the controllers here?

Tracks here, start at 18:30z.

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Accident Evektor EV-97 Harmony LSA N377YG, Sunday 11 February 2024

On February 11, 2024, about 1035 Pacific standard time, an Evektor-Aerotechnik Harmony LSA, N377YG, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Santa Ana, Californi...
aviation-safety.net
Click to expand...
 
I can almost guarantee there’s a video of this somewhere.

Regardless, I give much smaller aircraft than a 757 a much wider berth.
 
This will be an interesting one to follow, if the wake turbulence thing is true. Controlled environment, tower lines you up for your runway and then the 757 passes you while landing on the other runway. Not much these guys could do. I will admit that the thought of the 757's wake being blown towards me while landing on a parallel runway would not cross my mind in that particular situation. And if they didn't have ADS-B IN they might've never seen it coming.

Runways aren't of similar lengths, so tower most likely had no choice with regard to runway assignment. Otherwise you'd think they would've swapped the two of them around.
 
AV8R_87 said:
This will be an interesting one to follow, if the wake turbulence thing is true. Controlled environment, tower lines you up for your runway and then the 757 passes you while landing on the other runway. Not much these guys could do. I will admit that the thought of the 757's wake being blown towards me while landing on a parallel runway would not cross my mind in that particular situation. And if they didn't have ADS-B IN they might've never seen it coming.

Runways aren't of similar lengths, so tower most likely had no choice with regard to runway assignment. Otherwise you'd think they would've swapped the two of them around.
Click to expand...
I don’t think the 757 just snuck up without them “ever seeing it coming.” This situation requires both a traffic call followed by a “caution wake turbulence.” If tower did their job, the Evektor would know about the 757. Whether or not they adjust their flight path is up to the Evektor. 500 ft between runways with wind from the west, you can bet I’m staying high the whole way down.
 
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These wake accidents happen occasionally, even now. Some are rather insidious, than simply following an aircraft in trail to the same runway.


A number of years ago, a very experienced pilot was flying over water(cruise) just east of Milwaukee, going to Oshkosh. He was low, I think it was a 737 vectored 1000’ above. The wake flipped the light aircraft, no room to recover before they hit the water. The angle you go through the vortices matter for severity.


With the Reno accident linked above, the west winds blew the wake towards the parallel runway. Just saying, one can’t count on ATC to keep one clear, setups vary. One can get used to the small airport, then when you go mingle at the Class C or larger, time for high alert.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Smashed hard into the ground, but occupants survived. ADS-B trace has the 757 passing them as it lands on the upwind runway. Looks like the winds were light from the west at the time, could potentially push the vortices towards the LSA.

Any opinions from the controllers here?

Tracks here, start at 18:30z.

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Accident Evektor EV-97 Harmony LSA N377YG, Sunday 11 February 2024

On February 11, 2024, about 1035 Pacific standard time, an Evektor-Aerotechnik Harmony LSA, N377YG, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Santa Ana, Californi...
aviation-safety.net
Click to expand...
Here's the rule.

b. Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight of:
1. The super or heavy to aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving super or heavy on the same or parallel
runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.
2. The B757/large aircraft to a small aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving B757/large aircraft on the
same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.

If the 757 passed the LSA, at that time, the LSA then becomes the 'landing behind' aircraft. The Tower should give the wake turbulence advisory before the pass happens so the LSA pilot can make his decision on whether to continue his approach to landing.
 
I got 360ed to allow a Challenger get by (apparently my Skyhawk's 105 kts on a ten-mile final wasn't good enough), and ran into its wake. Eye-opening, even though the difference in mass was much less than the LSA/757 encounter. Felt more, but probably a 45° bank, uncommanded.
 
A Evektor EV-97 Harmony LSA stalled at about 20 feet and crashed short of runway 20L at John Wayne/Orange County Airport (SNA/KSNA), Santa Ana, California.
The two occupants received unspecified injuries and the LSA received substantial damage.
Witnesses indicted that the airplane probably flew into wake turbulence.

This is a rather typical LSA accident involving normal xwinds and turbulence and may not have involved wake turbulence at all.
 
luvflyin said:
Here's the rule.

b. Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight of:
1. The super or heavy to aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving super or heavy on the same or parallel
runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.
2. The B757/large aircraft to a small aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving B757/large aircraft on the
same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.

If the 757 passed the LSA, at that time, the LSA then becomes the 'landing behind' aircraft. The Tower should give the wake turbulence advisory before the pass happens so the LSA pilot can make his decision on whether to continue his approach to landing.
Click to expand...
There’s some gray here though on the application of class C services. A 757 overtaking a small with runways less than 2,500 sep is a no go under sequencing. There’s also the application of radar wake turb (4 miles) for VFR (small) vs IFR (757). Now, if they had visual before all of this, that’s all out the window.
 
Velocity173 said:
There’s some gray here though on the application of class C services. A 757 overtaking a small with runways less than 2,500 sep is a no go under sequencing. There’s also the application of radar wake turb (4 miles) for VFR (small) vs IFR (757). Now, if they had visual before all of this, that’s all out the window.
Click to expand...
Ah. I see now it was at KSNA
 
Clip4 said:
This is a rather typical LSA accident involving normal xwinds and turbulence and may not have involved wake turbulence at all.
Click to expand...
Eyewitnesses reported the plane being stable on short final at about 50 feet before abruptly banking 90 degrees and pitching at the ground. Sounds like a bit more than regular crosswinds and turbulence.
Velocity173 said:
There’s some gray here though on the application of class C services. A 757 overtaking a small with runways less than 2,500 sep is a no go under sequencing. There’s also the application of radar wake turb (4 miles) for VFR (small) vs IFR (757). Now, if they had visual before all of this, that’s all out the window.
Click to expand...
Looking at the track replays, I think the light sport was already on final before the 757 was even close. Don't think they ever had a visual on him.
Maybe someone with better LiveATC Google FU skills can pull the tape and see what kind of warnings they were given, if any.
 
Yikes. We had a Navajo go down here in Vancouver years ago from Wake turb. Trailing a 767 I believe. Cargo ops, both crew dead. Nothing to take lightly.
vancouver.citynews.ca

TSB: 2009 plane crash in Richmond caused by wake turbulence

The Transportation Safety Board is confirming it was wake turbulence that caused a small plane to crash near the Ikea parking lot in Richmond two years ago, killing two pilots.
vancouver.citynews.ca vancouver.citynews.ca
 
AV8R_87 said:
Eyewitnesses reported the plane being stable on short final at about 50 feet before abruptly banking 90 degrees and pitching at the ground. Sounds like a bit more than regular crosswinds and turbulence.

Looking at the track replays, I think the light sport was already on final before the 757 was even close. Don't think they ever had a visual on him.
Maybe someone with better LiveATC Google FU skills can pull the tape and see what kind of warnings they were given, if any.
Click to expand...
When the LSA established on base, the 757 was on a 6.5nm final. It would have been 5nm from the LSA, at their 1 to 2 o’clock and about 1300’ higher.

About 90 seconds later, when the LSA was beginning their turn to final, the 757 was on a 3.4nm final. It would have been 1.6nm from the LSA at their 1 to 2 o’clock (actually would have appeared as if very close to a collision course the entire time) and 150’ higher.

The 757 overtook the LSA when both were on a 1.3nm final, the 757 150’ lower and a bit more than twice the groundspeed of the LSA. Due to the offset final of the LSA, they were separated laterally by about 2000’ at the time, the courses of which later converged toward the 500’ lateral separation of runways 20L and 20R.

For what it’s worth, the loss of control happened almost exactly where I would expect a wake turbulence encounter to occur. 20L does not give a lot of room for landing long to avoid wake turbulence, especially if you’re doing touch and go’s. Almost certainly a call for an early go around in hindsight.
 
While flying a C-207 I got caught in the rotor wake of a CH-47 as it crossed the runway in front of me while I was landing.

I used up my entire bag of luck and skill that day, but I did not hit the ground. Nope, the ground is not what I hit that day...
 
I guess if you're keeping good situational awareness you will know the 757 is coming in and start to picture what might happen based on prevailing winds. Maybe an immediate exit from pattern is in order...
 
Don't know if they used a single tower frequency for both runways. If they used different frequencies, there goes a lot of your situational awareness, espe ially if tower doesn't point out what's happening.
 
I’ve had the deny landing clearance at KSNA a few times as they will try and squeeze me on 20L with big traffic coming. Sometimes telling me to turn direct the numbers when my comfort level of wake turbulence isn’t met.

Unable, I’ll extend downwind.
 
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