LPV / WAAS Upgrade

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Ryan Harris

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rcharris
Yet another struggle, the #2 Nav/Com is struggling and I think it's time for replacement (Narco MK12D). Plane currently has GTX335 ADS-B out/ KX-155/ MK12D/KLN-90A/PS7000B setup. Looking for the best approach to get rid of the MK12 and get LPV at the same time. Garmin 430W used? Just suck it up and get an IFD440 or GTN650?
 
I would go with new, the diff is about 2k when I last checked
 
When I upgraded for ADS-B several years ago, in my mind I had to choose either upgrade my G530 to WAAS or purchase new. I chose to upgrade the G530 before the upgrade cost were $$$$. I also installed the FS210 along with GTX345. I'm very happy with my decision and enjoy the way things work together. However, looking back, I wish I would have given more thought to installing the IFD540. I would not have needed the FS210 and this would have taken one piece out of the puzzle.
 
530/430W is still the gold standard, guess it depends on the deals you can find, I’d rather have a 430w and $2k for gas than pay more for a 650 that does the exact same thing, one might even say without the knobs less so.
 
I would consider the GTN 650,if I’m keeping the airplane.
 
The screens are whales better on the GTN or IFD series compared to the 430/530 series. And the 430/530 series is decade old technology at this point. My NGT9000 transponder has a better screen than my 430. Just saying. The 430 is still a workhorse, though. Long term support could be questionable at this point. That would be the main risk of buying one now.
 
I have a used Non-Waas 430 that we will be selling. I still would not recommend buying a used 430/530. Ours was 20 years old. We also put in the the Lynx 9000 transponder and it does have a better screen than our old 430.
 
Garmin took away too many knobs and the 650/750s can be a pain to use when it's bumpy/turbulent.
 
SbestCFII said:
Garmin took away too many knobs and the 650/750s can be a pain to use when it's bumpy/turbulent.
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With a IAS autopilot in a engine failure I can set best glide and have the plane fly on speed to the nearest field in seconds off muscle memory with a GNS. This is useful.
 
Install costs will be the same, seems silly to use antiquated avionics. Didn’t Garmin announce they will not be able to replace the screens anymore because they are no longer manufactured?


Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Install costs will be the same, seems silly to use antiquated avionics. Didn’t Garmin announce they will not be able to replace the screens anymore because they are no longer manufactured?


Tom
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That was for the 480W units.
 
For a new install, the difference in total cost between a used 430W or something new (think Garmin 650, or Avidyne 440 - both are very capable and very popular units) is going to be very minimal. I would go with a new unit.
 
Ravioli said:
You're clearly not in Sales and Marketing.
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True - I am an Engineer. I am way too analytical for sales! I would talk too many people out decisions that don’t make sense and I would never get a commission.
We did sell the 430 though. If you can find the situation where the buyer can do the labor and have someone to sign it off it can be a low cost way to equip.
 
I just went through this same decision an am awaiting an Avidyne install. The used asking prices for a 430W are fairly high and when you take into account, age of units, updates, less than perfect working condition, very high cost of repairs and Garmin's history of abandoning products, it's worth the extra 2 to 3K for an IFD unit. Good news is that if you prefer new Garmin, competition has prompted them to keep the prices lower on the 650/750.
 
i will say it again, why buy a box that has not been made since 2011. the 480 has been orphaned, one version of the 430 has been orphaned. how much longer will parts be available? some people will not believe it, but the supply of screens is getting very low. and there will NOT be a new run of screens. I would not want to buy a 430w and find out next year or two when the screen dies that you cannot get it fixed. then your either buying a IDF or a GTN and paying again to have that installed. also, with the flat rate repair cost of the 430 one problem eats up the savings of over the GTN. stick with a in production box if you are going to install a GPS.
 
unsafervguy said:
i will say it again, why buy a box that has not been made since 2011. the 480 has been orphaned, one version of the 430 has been orphaned. how much longer will parts be available? some people will not believe it, but the supply of screens is getting very low. and there will NOT be a new run of screens. I would not want to buy a 430w and find out next year or two when the screen dies that you cannot get it fixed. then your either buying a IDF or a GTN and paying again to have that installed. also, with the flat rate repair cost of the 430 one problem eats up the savings of over the GTN. stick with a in production box if you are going to install a GPS.
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Don’t think the sky is falling when it comes to the GNS
 
think again james, i have a very good friend that runs a very large garmin install shop and he says the word is screens supply is almost gone, but keep telling people to save 2k or 3k by buying a radio that is 8 years out of production.
 
Ryan Harris said:
Yet another struggle, the #2 Nav/Com is struggling and I think it's time for replacement (Narco MK12D). Plane currently has GTX335 ADS-B out/ KX-155/ MK12D/KLN-90A/PS7000B setup. Looking for the best approach to get rid of the MK12 and get LPV at the same time. Garmin 430W used? Just suck it up and get an IFD440 or GTN650?
Click to expand...

I would go with the GTN650. There's a case to be made for the 440, but FWIW I have no problem using the GTN in turbulence and I still am not completely comfortable with Avidyne's reliability and customer service.

The GNS series is simply not worth the cost to install it any more, IMO. It's old tech that will need to be replaced sooner, and the limited savings you might see now will vanish when you have to replace it a decade earlier than you would have otherwise. Unless you're selling your plane soon (in which case you might want to avoid an upgrade, period), I would not bother with a GNS x30W at this point.

James331 said:
530/430W is still the gold standard, guess it depends on the deals you can find, I’d rather have a 430w and $2k for gas than pay more for a 650 that does the exact same thing, one might even say without the knobs less so.
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The 650 has a MUCH better display, faster processor, etc... The GNS x30W units display only a limited number of traffic targets because of that, and their screens are smaller, and... There's a fair bit of difference.

But, the big thing is that the GTN is a dozen years more recent technology, and thus we can assume it will be supportable for at least a dozen more years than a GNS. The cost of the units is $2K (or less) different, and the cost of installation is the same. So, would you rather have something that will last most likely another 15 years or so, or something that's likely to become unsupported in 5 or maybe less?

asicer said:
2 decades, no?
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Yup. The GNS 430 came out in 1999.

Flybuddy said:
I just went through this same decision an am awaiting an Avidyne install. The used asking prices for a 430W are fairly high and when you take into account, age of units, updates, less than perfect working condition, very high cost of repairs and Garmin's history of abandoning products, it's worth the extra 2 to 3K for an IFD unit. Good news is that if you prefer new Garmin, competition has prompted them to keep the prices lower on the 650/750.
Click to expand...

Uhhh... Garmin's history of abandoning products?!? They're still supporting 20-year-old technology in the GNS line!

If you're speaking of the 480, that may not really be in their control as that unit wasn't produced by Garmin, it was one of the things they acquired with their purchase of UPS Aviation Technologies.

When a new unit like the 430/480/650 is first designed, the certification takes long enough that the components used to build them are close to end-of-life when certification is first achieved! Thus, Garmin (or UPSAT) pretty much has to purchase ALL the components they will EVER use to build the units up front. UPSAT may not have been able to make as big of a purchase as Garmin could, and by the time Garmin bought UPSAT it was likely too late to purchase more. That's probably one reason why the SL30 went away in favor of the GNC255 as well. (The SL30 was another former UPSAT product.)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I would go with the GTN650. There's a case to be made for the 440, but FWIW I have no problem using the GTN in turbulence and I still am not completely comfortable with Avidyne's reliability and customer service.

The GNS series is simply not worth the cost to install it any more, IMO. It's old tech that will need to be replaced sooner, and the limited savings you might see now will vanish when you have to replace it a decade earlier than you would have otherwise. Unless you're selling your plane soon (in which case you might want to avoid an upgrade, period), I would not bother with a GNS x30W at this point.



The 650 has a MUCH better display, faster processor, etc... The GNS x30W units display only a limited number of traffic targets because of that, and their screens are smaller, and... There's a fair bit of difference.

But, the big thing is that the GTN is a dozen years more recent technology, and thus we can assume it will be supportable for at least a dozen more years than a GNS. The cost of the units is $2K (or less) different, and the cost of installation is the same. So, would you rather have something that will last most likely another 15 years or so, or something that's likely to become unsupported in 5 or maybe less?



Yup. The GNS 430 came out in 1999.



Uhhh... Garmin's history of abandoning products?!? They're still supporting 20-year-old technology in the GNS line!

If you're speaking of the 480, that may not really be in their control as that unit wasn't produced by Garmin, it was one of the things they acquired with their purchase of UPS Aviation Technologies.

When a new unit like the 430/480/650 is first designed, the certification takes long enough that the components used to build them are close to end-of-life when certification is first achieved! Thus, Garmin (or UPSAT) pretty much has to purchase ALL the components they will EVER use to build the units up front. UPSAT may not have been able to make as big of a purchase as Garmin could, and by the time Garmin bought UPSAT it was likely too late to purchase more. That's probably one reason why the SL30 went away in favor of the GNC255 as well. (The SL30 was another former UPSAT product.)
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Just to add a bit to this (slightly old) thread, there's a lot of misinformation online that you always have to use the touchscreen on the GTN (mostly on a competitor's web site). For the most-common in-flight operations, like tuning/swapping frequencies, setting a direct-to waypoint, etc., the GTN has always supported knob-only operation.
 
SbestCFII said:
Garmin took away too many knobs and the 650/750s can be a pain to use when it's bumpy/turbulent.
Click to expand...

That's highly overrated. You'd have to be in insane turbulence and have a major reroute to have that make any difference. You can always change frequencies with the knob.

David Megginson said:
Just to add a bit to this (slightly old) thread, there's a lot of misinformation online that you always have to use the touchscreen on the GTN (mostly on a competitor's web site). For the most-common in-flight operations, like tuning/swapping frequencies, setting a direct-to waypoint, etc., the GTN has always supported knob-only operation.
Click to expand...

In fact, direct-to is A LOT more convenient on the GTN - push the D button, tap the FPL menu and select which waypoint. No swapping menus, no hitting the wrong button, nothing.
 
N1120A said:
That's highly overrated. You'd have to be in insane turbulence and have a major reroute to have that make any difference. You can always change frequencies with the knob.

In fact, direct-to is A LOT more convenient on the GTN - push the D button, tap the FPL menu and select which waypoint. No swapping menus, no hitting the wrong button, nothing.
Click to expand...
I've realised that the clumsy stab-and-grab technique is always a bad idea in turbulence, whether it's a knob, button, or touchscreen. The right approach is to do every adjustment in two deliberate steps:
  1. Anchor your pinky and ring finger to the radio or panel, so that your hand is moving the with it.
  2. Manipulate the knob, button, or touchscreen with your index finger and thumb.
I used to miss buttons all the time in turbulence, and I've had two expensive knob replacements over the years because of the (unintentioned) strain of the knob's trying to steady my whole arm while I'm holding it.
 
For a $2k delta including installation costs, I would think a GTN650 would have to fall pretty close to the "no-brainer" category when compared to a 430W.

I taught (and still teach) the GNS as well as the GTN series. Don't get me wrong, the 430/530 have been and still are great units. But they don't hold a candle to the new generation. The 650/750 is light years ahead, far more user-friendly, with a decades-distant life horizon. The 430/530 is already decades old. When it comes to avionics, you have to give serious thought to the installation costs. It'll cost just as much to install either box, so for $2k, I'd eliminate the concern over the eventual 430/530 sunset and just put modern equipment in the panel.

The whole "hard to program in turbulence" discussion is moot in my experience. It's very easy to adjust to the touchscreen. I use the little shelf on the bottom of the screen to anchor my hand if needed. It's really a non-issue with a very small amount of exposure.

My general advice on GNS vs. GTN is, if you have a GNS series, keep it. It's still a good unit. If you don't, buy a GTN. There's not a good argument to spend the money on such an old box to save so few benjamins.
 
Just saw a buddy at the airport. He bought an older S model Bonanza.
He was messing with the radio which was a GNS 530.
I asked him what's up, he said he just had it upgraded to WAAS. And now there's some static in the radio.
I said oh, what did that cost couple thousand?
He said no it was over 10K.
I stood there a minute speechless...
 
Ryan F. said:
My general advice on GNS vs. GTN is, if you have a GNS series, keep it. It's still a good unit. If you don't, buy a GTN. There's not a good argument to spend the money on such an old box to save so few benjamins.
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Great advice on both points. In the interest of fairness (as a Garmin owner), I'll add that if you have a GNS and really want to upgrade, that's the one time Avidyne's IFD series has a genuine advantage, since they're mostly slide-in replacements for the old GNS series (I think you still need a bit of tweaking to enable all the features), while the GTN series requires a new tray and harness.

Otherwise, GTN and IFD series are comparable in every way that matters. When I bought in 2017, a GTN 650 was $1,500 cheaper than an IFD 440, so that pushed me to Garmin (also, after I downloaded the IFD 440 emulator to my computer, Avidyne's marketing team started spamming me aggressively, which left a bad taste); since then, I think Avidyne has lowered their price to be more competitive.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Just saw a buddy at the airport. He bought an older S model Bonanza.
He was messing with the radio which was a GNS 530.
I asked him what's up, he said he just had it upgraded to WAAS. And now there's some static in the radio.
I said oh, what did that cost couple thousand?
He said no it was over 10K.
I stood there a minute speechless...
Click to expand...

He must have had something else done in conjunction with that (ADS-B Out transponder, perhaps?).

The WAAS upgrade of the GNS box by Garmin was $3600 when I did mine a while back to provide a position source for ADS-B.

It's now $4500. Garmin ships it back with a new WAAS antenna and current database, upgraded and refurbished (mine came back looking like it was brand new). The coax from the antenna may also have to be replaced. But no way the 530 WAAS upgrade alone should cost $10,000.
 
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Skyrys62 said:
Just saw a buddy at the airport. He bought an older S model Bonanza.
He was messing with the radio which was a GNS 530.
I asked him what's up, he said he just had it upgraded to WAAS. And now there's some static in the radio.
I said oh, what did that cost couple thousand?
He said no it was over 10K.
I stood there a minute speechless...
Click to expand...


:eek2::hairraise::no::sigh:
 
GRG55 said:
He must have had something else done in conjunction with that (ADS-B Out transponder, perhaps?).

The WAAS upgrade of the GNS box by Garmin was $3600 when I did mine a while back to provide a position source for ADS-B.

It's now $4500. Garmin ships it back with a new WAAS antenna and current database, upgraded and refurbished (mine came back looking like it was brand new). The coax from the antenna may also have to be replaced. But no way the 530 WAAS upgrade alone should cost $10,000.
Click to expand...

And it's about $1000-1200 to refurbish a 430, so the WAAS upgrade is still more like $3500
 
James331 said:
530/430W is still the gold standard, guess it depends on the deals you can find, I’d rather have a 430w and $2k for gas than pay more for a 650 that does the exact same thing, one might even say without the knobs less so.
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You might want to give the GTN (or IFD) emulator a spin to see how much the technology has advanced in 20 years. Just the fact that the screens are almost 5× the resolution makes a huge difference to what they can display (weather, route, traffic, terrain, etc).

There's nothing wrong with keeping your old GNS if you already have one, just like lots of us keep an old KX 170B in the panel — in both cases, they work, but they're old and clunky and it wouldn't make sense to pay to install one if you didn't already have it.
 
One thing I like better about the 430 is the CDI page. It is much simpler and less cluttered.
 
If you aren't ADS-B yet I would consider staying simple with the radios and getting a gnx 375.
 
N1120A said:
One thing I like better about the 430 is the CDI page. It is much simpler and less cluttered.
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Really? The Default Nav page on the 650 is user programmable, as is the 430. Seems sort of like a modern emulation of the old Nav 1 page. Has a software CDI and six user-definable fields, just like the 430.

Except the Default Nav page on the 650 has direct links to map, flight plan, and the CDI button, and much higher resolution. To me it's a big improvement. But I'm biased. I bought one.

The 430s and 530s are still very nice. Just doesn't make as much sense to spend the money for one out of the box and have it installed, these days.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Just saw a buddy at the airport. He bought an older S model Bonanza.
He was messing with the radio which was a GNS 530.
I asked him what's up, he said he just had it upgraded to WAAS. And now there's some static in the radio.
I said oh, what did that cost couple thousand?
He said no it was over 10K.
I stood there a minute speechless...
Click to expand...

Either he had something else done at the same time, or he got ripped off. The upgrade from Garmin is $4500, and an installation with all new coax and wiring should be $4K max.
 
Ryan F. said:
Really? The Default Nav page on the 650 is user programmable, as is the 430. Seems sort of like a modern emulation of the old Nav 1 page. Has a software CDI and six user-definable fields, just like the 430.

Except the Default Nav page on the 650 has direct links to map, flight plan, and the CDI button, and much higher resolution. To me it's a big improvement. But I'm biased. I bought one.

The 430s and 530s are still very nice. Just doesn't make as much sense to spend the money for one out of the box and have it installed, these days.
Click to expand...
Maybe @N1120A was thinking of the GTN 750, which doesn't have a Default Nav page.

Yes, the Default Nav page on the 650 is more powerful than new users realise. As you mentioned, you've always been able to get from there directly to the map or flight plan in a single tap (no going to Home first), and with last year's system software upgrade, you can install shortcuts for single-tap access to any page or function. If you don't have an external CDI switch installed, it's also where you switch the CDI between VLOC and GPS mode, and where you suspend/unsuspend a procedure or hold.

D
 
David Megginson said:
You're comparing it to the 650's "Default Nav" page?
Click to expand...

David Megginson said:
Maybe @N1120A was thinking of the GTN 750, which doesn't have a Default Nav page.

Yes, the Default Nav page on the 650 is more powerful than new users realise. As you mentioned, you've always been able to get from there directly to the map or flight plan in a single tap (no going to Home first), and with last year's system software upgrade, you can install shortcuts for single-tap access to any page or function. If you don't have an external CDI switch installed, it's also where you switch the CDI between VLOC and GPS mode, and where you suspend/unsuspend a procedure or hold.

D
Click to expand...

It isn't the "power" of the default nav page. It is the big, uncluttered nature of the indicator. The 650 one is prettier, but more cluttered and a little smaller.
 
N1120A said:
It isn't the "power" of the default nav page. It is the big, uncluttered nature of the indicator. The 650 one is prettier, but more cluttered and a little smaller.
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Totally fair -- I agree that a slightly-bigger indicator would be nice (though we always have an external indicator anyway, at least for an IFR installation, and are supposed to use that for actual navigation).

Disagree on the clutter. The Default Nav page shows just six data fields, in nice big type, and I wouldn't want any fewer. I choose to display time to next fix, distance to next fix, ground speed, actual track, desired track (I waffle between this and bearing to next fix), and GPS altitude MSL.
 
David Megginson said:
Totally fair -- I agree that a slightly-bigger indicator would be nice (though we always have an external indicator anyway, at least for an IFR installation, and are supposed to use that for actual navigation).

Disagree on the clutter. The Default Nav page shows just six data fields, in nice big type, and I wouldn't want any fewer. I especially like to have GSL (GPS height MSL) visible as a last safeguard against a bad altimeter setting. It will almost never match the altimeter, but if it's absurdly different, I know to be careful.
Click to expand...

Of course the external indicator is primary, and particularly important on a glideslope/path. That said, I've been doing a lot of right seat flying and it is much easier to use the GPS stack from there and the larger indicator is nice.

I don't disagree that the other info is nice, but the way it is set up on the 650 just isn't as nice to my eyes. Of course, my favorite is a 530 or 750, with no compromises.
 
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