Low level combat simulation

steingar said:
I've always said that in the most entertaining flying videos someone is doing something either illegal or just plain stupid.
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Hey! He’s just an honest sunglasses salesman, okay? Hahaha
 
Lachlan said:
I didn’t see anything illegal, unlawful, or stoopid. I was still entertained. Now somebody grab me another beer... please.
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You need to review the FARs vis a vis VFR cloud and obstacle clearances. Flying that low that aggressively you don't have a lot of outs should things go sideways. That is, IMHO, stupid. I cannot fathom why someone would recklessly risk life and limb for a video.
 
steingar said:
You need to review the FARs vis a vis VFR cloud and obstacle clearances. Flying that low that aggressively you don't have a lot of outs should things go sideways. That is, IMHO, stupid. I cannot fathom why someone would recklessly risk life and limb for a video.
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Yawn. Why do people skydive, or race motorcycles, or juggle chainsaws?

Cause we just want to have some damn fun, man.
 
Katamarino said:
Yawn. Why do people skydive, or race motorcycles, or juggle chainsaws?

Cause we just want to have some damn fun, man.
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First, skydiving can be accomplished safely. They do have reserve chutes. Second, I don't know anyone who juggles chainsaws. They're really heavy. I do know knife and sword jugglers, but the blades are all well balanced juggling props, andean be handled safely with ease. I thought about tracking my 954, but the costs were prohibitive unless I gave up the airplane, which I'm loathe to do. Motorcycle racing is dangerous, no doubt about it. I know people who have died doing it. Thing is, the only way to race bikes is fast on the ground. Racers who go to the track are being as safe as they can be, street racing is way more dangerous. Guys trying to wax each others tail can do it at altitude, they don't have to fly low over the deck to do it. It's about having outs in case things go wrong.

Personally I think if you have to perform aerobatic maneuvers feet off the ground just to have fun you don't belong in an airplane.
 
steingar said:
Guys trying to wax each others tail can do it at altitude, they don't have to fly low over the deck to do it. It's about having outs in case things go wrong.
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I do aerial combat for a living and we have a 5k' AGL floor for our unlimited maneuvering. Lower than that we have to back it down in the name of safety. I don't know the quals of the guys in the video - maybe this is tame stuff for them? If not, I think it would be wise to put some time between you and the ground.
 
steingar said:
You need to review the FARs vis a vis VFR cloud and obstacle clearances. Flying that low that aggressively you don't have a lot of outs should things go sideways. That is, IMHO, stupid. I cannot fathom why someone would recklessly risk life and limb for a video.
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steingar said:
First, skydiving can be accomplished safely. They do have reserve chutes. Second, I don't know anyone who juggles chainsaws. They're really heavy. I do know knife and sword jugglers, but the blades are all well balanced juggling props, andean be handled safely with ease. I thought about tracking my 954, but the costs were prohibitive unless I gave up the airplane, which I'm loathe to do. Motorcycle racing is dangerous, no doubt about it. I know people who have died doing it. Thing is, the only way to race bikes is fast on the ground. Racers who go to the track are being as safe as they can be, street racing is way more dangerous. Guys trying to wax each others tail can do it at altitude, they don't have to fly low over the deck to do it. It's about having outs in case things go wrong.

Personally I think if you have to perform aerobatic maneuvers feet off the ground just to have fun you don't belong in an airplane.
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People die in skydiving accidents. People also fly airplanes safely without incident.


People do indeed juggle chainsaws. Believe it or not you are not *THE* apex male and there are others out there bigger, stronger and faster than you. ;)

There are ways to race motorcycles that involve huge amounts of air time. See arenacross for an eye opener.

A mid-air at altitude only gives your debris field a better chance to exhibit entropy, and possibly the pilots a little more time to say, “Ooops.” Dead is dead. Living can be divided between really living and merely existing, such as in a classroom, for example.

Aerobatic maneuvers are best performed at lower altitudes for the visual contact with a solid reference point, and it’s much easier for spectators to observe your aerial prowess and skilled airmanship.

But you’re right, @steingar- airplanes suck, they’re not for fun, and anyone who enjoys the thrill and freedom of aggressive flying should be castigated and ridiculed for their abilities.
 
EvilEagle said:
I do aerial combat for a living and we have a 5k' AGL floor for our unlimited maneuvering. Lower than that we have to back it down in the name of safety. I don't know the quals of the guys in the video - maybe this is tame stuff for them? If not, I think it would be wise to put some time between you and the ground.
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Whose rules mandate that 5k’ floor? Are your ships a good bit faster, heavier, turbine-powered and taxpayer-owned? ;)
 
Lachlan said:
People die in skydiving accidents. People also fly airplanes safely without incident.


People do indeed juggle chainsaws. Believe it or not you are not *THE* apex male and there are others out there bigger, stronger and faster than you. ;)
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Probably, but they aren't common juggling prop. Please don't tell me what's what via juggling. I juggle balls, clubs, and scarves, and I ride a unicycle. I doubt you do any of that.

Lachlan said:
There are ways to race motorcycles that involve huge amounts of air time. See arenacross for an eye opener.
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You are correct, I was more thinking about supersport racing where the speeds are much higher. I bet that arena cross stuff isn't even as dangerous. The bikes are lighter, speeds slower, and the jumps aren't all that high.

Lachlan said:
A mid-air at altitude only gives your debris field a better chance to exhibit entropy, and possibly the pilots a little more time to say, “Ooops.” Dead is dead. Living can be divided between really living and merely existing, such as in a classroom, for example.
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If you're dong aerobatics with another aircraft one would think that you'd be carrying a parachute. I would. Being at altitude gives you a chance to bail out with enough room to deploy the chute.

Lachlan said:
Aerobatic maneuvers are best performed at lower altitudes for the visual contact with a solid reference point, and it’s much easier for spectators to observe your aerial prowess and skilled airmanship.
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Better to put yourself in danger so you can show off. I am so glad you don't write the rules for this stuff.

Lachlan said:
But you’re right, @steingar- airplanes suck, they’re not for fun, and anyone who enjoys the thrill and freedom of aggressive flying should be castigated and ridiculed for their abilities.
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No, those who enjoy the thrill of aggressive flying feet off the ground should be prosecuted, since they're putting themselves, their machines, and anyone under them in danger. Those who practice safe aerobatics, which by the way make far more boring videos (no clouds, no ground, not other airplanes...) should be lauded in pages like this. Were everyone here like you I'd have left long ago. I much prefer a safety-oriented culture than one that celebrates showboating and illegal maneuvering. A pity some of you seem insufficiently versed in the FARs to even know what that looks like.
 
You must think I'm a right idiot and should be prosecuted for flying over oceans in a single engine, then?

Luckily, not everyone thinks like steingar or the world would be a very sad and dull place. If everything in life was mandated to suit the "lowest common denominator" of person, as you seem to want, nothing interesting would ever happen.

People who think like you are the ones calling for all general aviation to be banned. "There's a slight risk, and I'm not interested in it, therefore anyone who does it should be prosecuted". I for one don't have any respect for people who try and impose their own views on others in that way.
 
Lachlan said:
Whose rules mandate that 5k’ floor? Are your ships a good bit faster, heavier, turbine-powered and taxpayer-owned? ;)
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You’d be surprised. Even in a combat zone it’s not a free for all. The Air Ops Center publishes an aviation procedures rule book. Lots of restrictions...and exceptions to those restrictions.
 
Katamarino said:
You must think I'm a right idiot and should be prosecuted for flying over oceans in a single engine, then?
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No, but I would hope you've included commonsense safety measures like an inflatable raft and survival suits. If you've left this sort of equipment behind flying such a mission you might be a right idiot.

Katamarino said:
Luckily, not everyone thinks like steingar or the world would be a very sad and dull place. If everything in life was mandated to suit the "lowest common denominator" of person, as you seem to want, nothing interesting would ever happen.
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Perhaps if more people thought like me there'd be fewer crashes and our insurance rates would go down some.

Katamarino said:
People who think like you are the ones calling for all general aviation to be banned. "There's a slight risk, and I'm not interested in it, therefore anyone who does it should be prosecuted". I for one don't have any respect for people who try and impose their own views on others in that way.
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Actually, I wasn't trying to impose my views on anyone. I was saying the guys in the video should try following the FARs vis a vis ground and cloud clearances. If that's too much for everyone than you can kiss my six goodbye. I will not participate in a forum that lauds or advocates unsafe operation.
 
steingar said:
I juggle balls, clubs, and scarves, and I ride a unicycle. I doubt you do any of that.
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:D


steingar said:
No, those who enjoy the thrill of aggressive flying feet off the ground should be prosecuted, since they're putting themselves, their machines, and anyone under them in danger. Those who practice safe aerobatics, which by the way make far more boring videos (no clouds, no ground, not other airplanes...) should be lauded in pages like this. Were everyone here like you I'd have left long ago. I much prefer a safety-oriented culture than one that celebrates showboating and illegal maneuvering. A pity some of you seem insufficiently versed in the FARs to even know what that looks like.
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Well now, do you wear your official lawman badge when you’re riding around on your unicycle, reprimanding hooligans for their miscreant behaviors? This is real, right? You’re not just pulling PoA’s leg with this nonsense? Too good.
 
Some people take uncommon risks and have the skill set to do it.

I worry a lot more about the idiots I see on YT who don’t KNOW they’re taking a risk and DON’T have the skill set or experience to pull it off, and just barely make it.

An example would be that Jerry moron in his medium sized cabin class twin. When he can’t operate half of the equipment on board, doesn’t use checklists, comes out of clouds on an ILS he’s completely botched in a 30 degree bank and enough nose down that the majority of the windscreen is full of dirt and houses...

Yeah. I’ll not worry about these guys and their low level fun more than that guy who has needed immediate and harsh remedial instrument training for a number of years now.

He puts passengers at risk during that crap also. Anybody hopping in a back seat with the low level guys knows the risk they’re taking right about the time someone fits their brain holder with a second layer of heavy duty plastic and straps it under their chin.
 
Lachlan said:
Whose rules mandate that 5k’ floor? Are your ships a good bit faster, heavier, turbine-powered and taxpayer-owned? ;)
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Yep, a little faster (M2+), a good bit heavier (~45k#), TWIN afterburning turbine powered and thankfully tax payer owned!

Air Force Instruction 11-214 "Air Operations Rules and Procedures" specify many limits - one of them being the 5k' floor. Those rules have been written in blood. This is a dangerous business. I'm 100% sure that my squadron could do BFM at 100' and get away with it. Right up until one random day when someone doesn't make it. Honestly, the maneuvers in the video are super benign and very very basic so they resemble stuff that we do at low level as well. The difference is that we *have to* train to low level combat in case we do it for real. Sure, it's fun but it's also much more dangerous than training at higher altitude. With enough proficiency, you can do all the stuff in the video and more with a reasonable margin of safety. Proficiency is certainly a subjective term (especially in GA). None of us know the background, training program or proficiency of the pilots in the video (well I'd say most of us don't at least) so we really don't know if it's truly unsafe. Could it be safer? Of course. At some point it's just safer to keep it on the ground, but none of us do that either. What is the reward vs risk for this type of flying? There's always a risk and hopefully there's also a reward. What about the people on the ground or that may be out fishing in a boat when they are doing it? What is their risk? Reward? People on IFR clearances *legally* punching through those clouds shown in the video? This is why we have to do this stuff in MOA/Warning areas and Restricted areas. But we still have limits - cloud clearances, min distance between aircraft, floor, etc.

To the "well I guess you just aren't a good enough pilot to hack it" crowd... the best combat pilots I have ever flown with are normally the most humble. If you are truly the best pilot in the room, you won't have to be the one telling everyone. They'll know.
 
steingar said:
Probably, but they aren't common juggling prop. Please don't tell me what's what via juggling. I juggle balls, clubs, and scarves, and I ride a unicycle. I doubt you do any of that.
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I can do all of these, but I’m not brave enough to try use it as proof of my bravado and manliness on the internet. Rotfl you are the king!
 
Salty said:
I can do all of these, but I’m not brave enough to try use it as proof of my bravado and manliness on the internet. Rotfl you are the king!
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Me neither. I do most of my juggling for fun, and not to impress people.
 
steingar said:
No, but I would hope you've included commonsense safety measures like an inflatable raft and survival suits. If you've left this sort of equipment behind flying such a mission you might be a right idiot.



Perhaps if more people thought like me there'd be fewer crashes and our insurance rates would go down some.



Actually, I wasn't trying to impose my views on anyone. I was saying the guys in the video should try following the FARs vis a vis ground and cloud clearances. If that's too much for everyone than you can kiss my six goodbye. I will not participate in a forum that lauds or advocates unsafe operation.
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It has been real. It has been fun. It has not been real fun.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Goodbye
 
I saw the Flying Karamozov Brothers juggle chainsaws on stage sometime in the '80s. It seems pretty common nowadays. FWIW.
 
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