Low alt cross controlled turns.

motoadve

motoadve

Pre-takeoff checklist
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motoadve
Reason to make this turn, the need to turn at low alt and at low speed, and avoid lowering the wing too close to the ground.
I dont see it being used on regular take offs other than in some backcountry challenging kind of flying.
Sportsman and Vgs changes the wing dramatically, I dont think I would try this turns at this speeds with the stock wing.
STOL kits and VGs doing their job here.
Making those turns are fun though.
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There are a lot of older designs that won't forgive cross-controlling at low altitude and low airspeed. Videos like this can be fatally misleading.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There are a lot of older designs that won't forgive cross-controlling at low altitude and low airspeed. Videos like this can be fatally misleading.
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I tend to agree. Awesome video, but it should come with a disclaimer. Definitely an advanced maneuver that should be used with caution.
 
I don't see wing clearance as an issue. You can probably bank 30 degrees without placing the wingtip below the landing gear.

And I don't see the advantage in the technique. If you have sufficient airspeed to do that, instead crank the thing into the appropriate bank level and carry on.
 
Here's the disclaimer I use.
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Whenever I think of cross control I go back to my days flying as crew on P-3 Orions. We had a camera installed in the aft observer station. The camera gimbal was limited to about 30 degrees in elevation. When tracking ballistic missiles we would run out of elevation. To gain more look up angle, we had the commander, with #4 feathered (Improved optics with no exhaust in view) give us as much 'up' right wing while using top rudder to maintain heading, followed by a shallow turn holding the wing up. That old Lockheed would fly on the edge of stall, shaking like a wet dog. They actually stalled once, departed and wound up with a cracked wing (I wasn't onboard) and retired her to the desert in China Lake. They fire it up now and then for fire/rescue training.

Sorry for the divergence on thread but seeing the cross control flying brought back memories
 
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In the video I explain the airplanes is modified and it has a Sportsman STOL kit and VGs and I wouldnt try it in a stock Cessna wing.
 
motoadve said:
In the video I explain the airplanes is modified and it has a Sportsman STOL kit and VGs and I wouldnt try it in a stock Cessna wing.
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I still wouldn't do it. An aileron down will still stall that wing first if you get too slow, and things get ugly real quick.

A friend flew a Robertson-equipped 185 for a long time. Those are placarded against intentional stalling or spinning. He decided to find out why, so climbed up to 10,000 feet or so and to get the stall, he had to use a lot of power. It shuddered and shook and warned him, then flicked rapidly over into a nasty spin that took thousands to feet to recover. Now he knew why it was placarded.

VGs and wing cuffs can enable slower flight, but like four-wheel-drive that can get you further but can also get you much more deeply stuck, they have their drawbacks, and stall/spin behavior is sometimes one of them.

There is really no need to cross the controls. The turn radius isn't helped by skidding instead of banking, and you really don't need much altitude at all for ground clearance, especially in a high wing airplane. I could get a 20 degree bank or close to it in a Citabria in a crosswing landing on the runway.
 
Take off, ground effect and then left rudder towards the turn and point the nose where I want to go. Corrected with some right aileron, as soon as the nose points where I want I start reducing rudder input, and centering aileron towards where I want to go.
AoA indicator shows lift, stall warning not going off and avoiding high bank angle.

Done this turn more than 200 times, its not a video show off thing, it works in my plane for avoiding banking too much at low alt.
 
motoadve said:
Take off, ground effect and then left rudder towards the turn and point the nose where I want to go. Corrected with some right aileron, as soon as the nose points where I want I start reducing rudder input, and centering aileron towards where I want to go.
AoA indicator shows lift, stall warning not going off and avoiding high bank angle.

Done this turn more than 200 times, its not a video show off thing, it works in my plane for avoiding banking too much at low alt.
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Until you get some wind shear, then it don’t.
 
motoadve said:
Take off, ground effect and then left rudder towards the turn and point the nose where I want to go. Corrected with some right aileron, as soon as the nose points where I want I start reducing rudder input, and centering aileron towards where I want to go.
AoA indicator shows lift, stall warning not going off and avoiding high bank angle.

Done this turn more than 200 times, its not a video show off thing, it works in my plane for avoiding banking too much at low alt.
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I think you’ll regret it one day. If I’m wrong wouldn’t be the first time. Tailwinds and be safe.
 
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but if winds allow it I would be taking off towards that large open area across the creek instead of towards the trees.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There are a lot of older designs that won't forgive cross-controlling at low altitude and low airspeed. Videos like this can be fatally misleading.
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Ryanb said:
I tend to agree. Awesome video, but it should come with a disclaimer. Definitely an advanced maneuver that should be used with caution.
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If you watched the video, he explains it, how its done and gives a warning about the issues....
 
Zeldman said:
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but if winds allow it I would be taking off towards that large open area across the creek instead of towards the trees.
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First thing I noticed as well. Why turn away from an open field with no trees around it? Must be something we can’t see.
 
While the maneuver may work, I didn't see anything in the video that indicated a new ramp coordinated turn would be any less safe.
 
MauleSkinner said:
While the maneuver may work, I didn't see anything in the video that indicated a new ramp coordinated turn would be any less safe.
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I think what it comes down to is risk assessment and acceptance. The op has made their decision. It’s easy for me to say that uncoordinated low airspeed turns at low altitude are outside my acceptance level regardless of how the aircraft is equipped. If I’m trying to get in a spot that requires that type of maneuvering then I find another spot. Again other people have to make their own decision.
 
Cross controlling requires added speed and lower AOA. No benefit in that. Coordination allows slower speeds, more positive control, and the shortest rollouts. Better rate of climb and more precise turns for climbout, too.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
If I’m trying to get in a spot that requires that type of maneuvering then I find another spot. Again other people have to make their own decision.
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Any high wing Cessna or long wing Piper can make a coordinated turn with one main still on the runway without risk of snagging the wingtip. If there's something there that you can't lower a wing into, you'll hit it with the prop in a skidded turn.

And as @Stewartb said, performance will be better when coordinated, anyway.
 
Yeah, this cross controlled bit doesn't make any sense to me..
 
It looks like the climb performance of that aircraft makes a turn like that unnecessary.......just do a short field t/o and climb at Vx
 
PaulS said:
Skidding turns low, especially very low, frighten me.
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They scare the holy livin sheet outta me to. But he's not skidding. Cross controlled is the opposite of skid. He's doing a 'climbing slip' so to speak

EDIT: On second thought I think you can be skidding while cross controlled.
 
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motoadve said:
Reason to make this turn, the need to turn at low alt and at low speed, and avoid lowering the wing too close to the ground.
I dont see it being used on regular take offs other than in some backcountry challenging kind of flying.
Sportsman and Vgs changes the wing dramatically, I dont think I would try this turns at this speeds with the stock wing.
STOL kits and VGs doing their job here.
Making those turns are fun though.
icon_e_biggrin.gif


Click to expand...

Wingspan of a 182 is 36 ft. Even at a 45 deg bank, you have to be below 12 ft AGL in order to strike the wing. A skidding turn does not mean you will spin right away, but I fail to understand the compelling need for it in this case.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, a skid is also cross controlled, and he’s skidding.
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I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that. A skid and a slip are both uncoordinated. Left aileron with to much left rudder is a skid, but it's not 'cross' controlled. They are in the same direction. Right aileron with left rudder is 'cross' controlled
 
luvflyin said:
I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that. A skid and a slip are both uncoordinated. Left aileron with to much left rudder is a skid, but it's not 'cross' controlled. They are in the same direction. Right aileron with left rudder is 'cross' controlled
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A skid is too much rudder relative to a coordinated turn...a slip is not though rudder for a coordinated turn. Either can be done with both controls deflected in the same direction or opposite directions. Any of it can be considered cross-controlled.
 
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Cheating a turn like that, adding more left (or right) rudder from coordinated to a skid, to bring the nose around quicker in a turn is a death maneuver in the pattern when you are low and slow. That's what I was taught, so I refuse to do it. Sometimes, turning to final, I screw up and end up off centerline opposite the side I turned from. I just continue the coordinated turn until I'm back on centerline and then come out of the bank. The urge to kick it around early with the rudder can be strong when you see it happening, as is the urge to roll harder into the bank (more than 30 degrees). You just have to refuse to do it and go around if you screwed it up too badly. The price is too high for a stall spin down low.
 
motoadve said:
Reason to make this turn, the need to turn at low alt and at low speed, and avoid lowering the wing too close to the ground.
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At the altitude the plane was when the turn was made, the wingtip wouldn't have gotten into the ground if you tried. Seems like this is just increasing risk for the purpose of increasing risk to me.
 
yes, this doesn't make any sense at all, there is no practical need for it like the other posters have said and aerodynamically it doesn't help you turn faster to be uncoordinated
 
Maybe I missed something. I’ll watch again, but I didn’t really see any need for an uncoordinated turn. That said, I have never flown in that type of environment and videos don’t always show the entire picture.
 
Kritchlow said:
Maybe I missed something. I’ll watch again, but I didn’t really see any need for an uncoordinated turn. That said, I have never flown in that type of environment and videos don’t always show the entire picture.
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I don't think you missed anything. :)
 
apilotb said:
Wingspan of a 182 is 36 ft. Even at a 45 deg bank, you have to be below 12 ft AGL in order to strike the wing. A skidding turn does not mean you will spin right away, but I fail to understand the compelling need for it in this case.
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And I think your 12 ft AGL is measured at the wing, not at the wheels, right? SInce the wingtip is already six feet off the ground when the airplane is on the ground, the wheels would have to be pretty close to the ground in a 45° bank for that tip to strike.
 
apilotb said:
Wingspan of a 182 is 36 ft. Even at a 45 deg bank, you have to be below 12 ft AGL in order to strike the wing. A skidding turn does not mean you will spin right away, but I fail to understand the compelling need for it in this case.
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Obviously because it looks cool.
Maybe it allows him to build some speed to do that big vertical climb you see right at the end of the vid.
I hope what we don’t see is a lot of practice of these maneuvers.
Do you need to cross control to tighten turn without excessively banking to maintain sharper coordinated turn??
 
MauleSkinner said:
A skid is too much rudder relative to a coordinated turn...a slip is not though rudder for a coordinated turn. Either can be done with both controls deflected in the same direction or opposite directions. Any of it can be considered cross-controlled.
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I can see that you can be either skidding or slipping with both aileron and rudder deflected in the same direction. But I'm still having trouble calling that cross controlled. But I can see an argument for it. It would be 'they aren't equal, so therefore they are crossed.
 
I flew a Citation X for a number of years where hitting a wing was a real concern. 37° sweep with huge wings. The wingtips were almost the furthest aft part of the airplane.
On landing pitching up plus banking were always a concern.
Never had to do such a maneuver.
 
Jeez, to each their own. "Right or "wrong", he's doing a type of flying that 99.9% of pilots don't do. Nobody needs to imitate anyone else. The flying farmer acts skid low level turns way more aggressively than this. I'm not concerned about the OP doing anything dangerous. There is room for pilots to have sufficient skill with their airplanes even if there is disagreement on the validity of certain techniques.
 
Used to routinely do extremely steep turns just above tree tops to hook into and out of a tight farm strip we pulled banners from. Was always coordinated. Never came back with any branches or birds nests in the wing tips.
 
In winter I routinely operate on and off a frozen creek with a cut bank on one side and a sloping bank on the other. Realistically there's probably 75' for the wings in most places. The problem is the creek twists so the cut bank switches from one side to the other. Getting slow at the treetops and dropping in is required and then I still have to navigate a RH bend in the middle. For landing I land at the top of the bend. I usually skid around the turn for departures, but that's skidding on the skis with the tail up. Coming in the other way I have to drop under the tree tops and fly a 45* plus turn to touchdown. There's a bank there, too, and I don't want to catch the bank with a wingtip. Slower and steeper is the best method. Sometimes the wind makes it sporty. I've never considered flying it uncoordinated and never will. There's nothing to gain. If the LZ is short and tight? Slow is the key. I think I need to put the Fluidynes on and go flying!
 
RoscoeT said:
Jeez, to each their own. "Right or "wrong", he's doing a type of flying that 99.9% of pilots don't do. Nobody needs to imitate anyone else. The flying farmer acts skid low level turns way more aggressively than this. I'm not concerned about the OP doing anything dangerous. There is room for pilots to have sufficient skill with their airplanes even if there is disagreement on the validity of certain techniques.
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The point here is that it is best to use proper technique. You'll have bigger margins. We don't want 100 hour pilots coming here and blindly duplicating poor technique because "a guy does it that way on Youtube".
 
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