Lost Trust in Foreflight

LauraE51

LauraE51

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
272
Location
Modesto,CA
Display Name
Display name:
Laura
Today, for the second time Foreflight would not connect to my GPS unit and i was forced to cancel my flight. i'd like to think this was pilot error and i would appreciate advice. Here's the data.

iPad Mini Retina, 32GB (with lots of extra space)
DUAL X150 GPS
Foreflight

Normally, i turn on the Dual first and confirm that bluetooth is working. At that point, i open up my iPad and turn on bluetooth, confirming that it's paired with the Dual. I then check my Dual to confirm the green light is on, showing i have a GPS connection. Finally, i open up Dual's Status Tool on the iPad, which shows how many satellites are connected as well as my current coordinates.

The first time this happened, i was in the air before i noticed and i spent a little too much time playing with my iPad and Foreflight before i gave up. Fortunately, that was a local flight, so no harm was done. When i returned, i got on the foreflight forums which told me the best solution would be to restart both my iPad and the Dual unit.

Which is what i did today, twice. Both times, the Dual was paired with the iPad and the Status tool told me i was connected to satellites and that i had coordinates. However, ForeFlight was telling me that it had NO FIX.

After 30 minutes of playing with FF and the Dual, i gave up, parked the plane, and came home.

At home, i'm finding the same problem. i can't see myself trusting FF again if it won't always connect to GPS. Anyone else have this problem and if so, how did you fix it?
 
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You scrubbed a flight because your tablet didn't work?

It should never be primary. You should be able to navigate without it. As well as have a backup.
 
MAKG1 said:
You scrubbed a flight because your tablet didn't work?

It should never be primary. You should be able to navigate without it. As well as have a backup.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your support. My iphone is my back up, but because i'm still a fairly low time pilot since my return from a 42 year slumber, i chose to be more conservative.
 
I'm assuming you're VFR? Why not just go and navigate by visual reference, and perhaps use a VOR if you wanna check your position? Even without GPS, the charts still work...
 
It certainly seems that for you, the iPad is currently more of a distraction than an aid to flight. I think what you need to do is leave the iPad home and fly with a paper chart, and between flights, work on learning the iPad well enough on the ground that in the air you can use it effectively while maintaining control of the aircraft and good visual lookout.
 
Ron Levy said:
It certainly seems that for you, the iPad is currently more of a distraction than an aid to flight. I think what you need to do is leave the iPad home and fly with a paper chart, and between flights, work on learning the iPad well enough on the ground that in the air you can use it effectively while maintaining control of the aircraft and good visual lookout.
Click to expand...

Control has nothing to do with it. It's only a distraction IF IT DOESN'T WORK. I was flying to an unfamiliar airport and without FF's little airplane, i won't have situational awareness. i'm not feeling the love guys. All i want is for FF to work.
 
Ron Levy said:
It certainly seems that for you, the iPad is currently more of a distraction than an aid to flight. I think what you need to do is leave the iPad home and fly with a paper chart, and between flights, work on learning the iPad well enough on the ground that in the air you can use it effectively while maintaining control of the aircraft and good visual lookout.
Click to expand...
or that the GPS "magenta line syndrome" is the problem. He could still use the iPad for the easy access charts, and still learn better pilotage, dead-reckoning, and VOR navigation.
 
bbridges51 said:
Thanks for your support. My iphone is my back up, but because i'm still a fairly low time pilot since my return from a 42 year slumber, i chose to be more conservative.
Click to expand...

The stuff you used 42 years ago still works today. I recommend a refresher.
 
JoeSelch said:
The stuff you used 42 years ago still works today. I recommend a refresher.
Click to expand...

Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
I believe i've found the problem. Location Services on the iPad needs to be on and FF needs to access them for some reason while connected to the DUAL GPS. Why? who knows? In any case, when i updated to IOS 8, Apple changed Location Services so that they were turned off. Once i turned them back on, FF connected to the GPS.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
 
JoeSelch said:
The stuff you used 42 years ago still works today. I recommend a refresher.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I didn't know you could complete a flight review without using VORs or even looking out the window to navigate...
 
bbridges51 said:
Thanks for your support. My iphone is my back up, but because i'm still a fairly low time pilot since my return from a 42 year slumber, i chose to be more conservative.
Click to expand...
It's really easy to follow 99 or some other feature to your destination from MOD. The tablet is a crutch, and you'll do much better to develop your pilotage. Almost all the features except for the suburban sprawl were there 42 years ago.

They screw up all the time. Depending on your tablet is not conservative at all.
 
I've used FF for 3+ years and never had an issue, but I use the internal GPS via 3G or 4G, works even on an airliner, if I can get a window seat! ;)
Honestly, it's easy to get to dependent on electronics, especially when they show your position on the chart for you! :D I have GPS in my plane and use the iPad for back up and IFR charting. Your issue isn't FF, it's the Bluetooth GPS, the charts were still there, right? ;)
I'll chime in as another to say practice with paper charts until you're comfortable, think of FF as a good to have vs a must have! :D
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Exactly. I didn't know you could complete a flight review without using VORs or even looking out the window to navigate...
Click to expand...

I found VORs a pain 42 years ago. for those of you not currently living in the 21st century, i found that piloting solely by VORs took my eyes off of outside too often so i could find and plot two or more VORs to find my position. What i love about FF is that i don't need to look down at the screen very often and that i have MORE time to look outside for traffic and location confirmation.

but, feel free to remain in the stone age if you'd like.
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
I believe i've found the problem. Location Services on the iPad needs to be on and FF needs to access them for some reason while connected to the DUAL GPS. Why? who knows? In any case, when i updated to IOS 8, Apple changed Location Services so that they were turned off. Once i turned them back on, FF connected to the GPS.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
Click to expand...

We're showing the love. Really. We want you to be safe.
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
Click to expand...

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the ability of this board to criticize!!:D:D
 
bbridges51 said:
Control has nothing to do with it. It's only a distraction IF IT DOESN'T WORK. I was flying to an unfamiliar airport and without FF's little airplane, i won't have situational awareness. i'm not feeling the love guys. All i want is for FF to work.
Click to expand...
If you don't have sufficient situational awareness without the iPad/FF/GPS, you need more training/practice in flying without it so you can handle an inflight failure of that system safely. There are good reasons I don't sign off anybody with a GPS for the IR practical test unless they can fly an approach safely and accurately with the GPS simulated failed, and it's no different for VFR flying -- if you can't handle a foreseeable single-point failure, you aren't safe for solo.
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
I believe i've found the problem. Location Services on the iPad needs to be on and FF needs to access them for some reason while connected to the DUAL GPS. Why? who knows? In any case, when i updated to IOS 8, Apple changed Location Services so that they were turned off. Once i turned them back on, FF connected to the GPS.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
Click to expand...
people haven't reported that "problem" because it's not one. As of IOS6, it's by design for privacy.

And no, sorry, but I'm not gonna show anyone love who can't fly a simple pattern without GPS. That's how people get killed.
 
N747JB said:
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the ability of this board to criticize!!:D:D
Click to expand...

While i began my journey back this summer, i began tracking PoA last fall and am constantly learning from the great posts and comments on this board. I do feel like a low-time pilot, since i've only 12 hours since returning. i DO want to be a better pilot which is why i'm thankful for the electronic tools at our disposal. Having the software take care of the location and direction services provides me more time to aviate, navigate, and communicate.
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
Click to expand...
Someday that system will fail on you in flight, and then you'll discover what a bad day really is. Alternatively, you could get some additional training in operations without that gadget so you can handle such a failure without blinking an eye. I most strongly recommend you do the latter before the former happens.
 
bbridges51 said:
I found VORs a pain 42 years ago. for those of you not currently living in the 21st century, i found that piloting solely by VORs took my eyes off of outside too often so i could find and plot two or more VORs to find my position. What i love about FF is that i don't need to look down at the screen very often and that i have MORE time to look outside for traffic and location confirmation.

but, feel free to remain in the stone age if you'd like.
Click to expand...

You have a VOR on the field. How hard can it be?

When the "21st century" stuff fails, you MUST be able to use the "stone age" techniques.

Fly the airplane, not the gadget.
 
I have the same issues with my Dual and FF. Updated iOS and everything.

I thought it was my GPS unit and now I'm starting to think its the iPad.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
people haven't reported that "problem" because it's not one. As of IOS6, it's by design for privacy.

And no, sorry, but I'm not gonna show anyone love who can't fly a simple pattern without GPS. That's how people get killed.
Click to expand...

well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
 
You should get the iPad that has 3G. Even if you don't activate or subscribe for a cellular service, it has a built in GPS. It's never failed me so far. That way you could use external wifi GPS for higher accuracy, but it can fall back on its internal one.
 
bbridges51 said:
well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
Click to expand...
Wait, you trust the little airplane on a map that can fail at any time over simply looking at what's on the ground?!?! :mad2: How on Earth do you drive a car?
 
bbridges51 said:
well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
Click to expand...
What would happen if 20 miles from that unfamiliar airport you lost your GPS signal (something that can and does happen from time to time)? As I said above, if you can't handle a failure of this system, you aren't safe for solo outside that little area you mentioned being able to handle, and you need more training to reach that essential level of skill and proficiency.

BTW, I'm wondering what CFI would sign your flight review for return to flying after 42 years if you couldn't handle a GPS failure outside your own aeronautical back yard. I have to say I suspect that CFI failed in his/her responsibilities if s/he signed you off without you being able to navigate and maintain situational awareness anywhere you might fly (including unfamiliar territory) without a working GPS and moving map display.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Wait, you trust the little airplane on a map that can fail at any time over simply looking at what's on the ground?!?! :mad2: How on Earth do you drive a car?
Click to expand...

So, when you drive to a brand new city and an address you never been to, you don't use a GPS unit? Are you using paper maps when you drive to unfamiliar places? Are you that good a driver, or pilot, that you can just look outside and fly to far off unfamiliar places?

Wow, you must be great.
 
Okay, GPS is great, especially on Foreflight or any moving map. But give pilotage a few more shots. Bring along another pilot, doesn't have to be a CFI, who is comfortable with using pilotage. Get in a few flights to more familiar destinations via pilotage. Expand from there.

Pilotage is fun.
 
Go with an IPad with an internal GPS.foreflight has never let me down since it was introduced. I now use an iPad air with the stratus 2. I would also carry paper charts while you build time.
 
bbridges51 said:
So, when you drive to a brand new city and an address you never been to, you don't use a GPS unit?
Click to expand...
Not analogous. When I drive to a brand new city and I have a navigational problem, I can pull over at the next gas station and ask directions. That's not an option in an airplane. Flying ain't driving, and it's a whole lot easier for lack of skill or knowledge to kill you in a plane than in a car.
 
bbridges51 said:
well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
Click to expand...

Then work on your pilotage until you do. That's what saves your bacon, especially if you go east. Or your certificate.

It's pretty easy in central CA. Lots of terrain, reservoirs, and isolated highways.

You might back it up with radio navigation, but a printed nav log (ded reckoning) will work as well.

Simple is good. Fewer ways to break.
 
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bbridges51 said:
So, when you drive to a brand new city and an address you never been to, you don't use a GPS unit? Are you using paper maps when you drive to unfamiliar places? Are you that good a driver, or pilot, that you can just look outside and fly to far off unfamiliar places?

Wow, you must be great.
Click to expand...
No, I don't have a GPS in my car. With flying and driving, I study maps beforehand when the pressure isn't on, and familiarize myself with the route. Then use landmarks and points on the map to quickly confirm while enroute, and adjust as necessary. And if checking your position with a VOR really takes as long as you claim, then that's just reiterating our point of why you need more practice without relying on GPS.
 
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.

All this whining about other means of nav are fine, and anyone can use other means. But - the best means, and the best situational tool was not avail and the right decision was to scrub the flight unless or until the main nav tool is working.

GPS outages are vanishingly small and also typically of very short duration. If the GPS was avail during the take off, and later failed, I'm sure the OP could have used radio or DR to get somewhere, but the principle utility is just so much better.
 
bbridges51 said:
So, when you drive to a brand new city and an address you never been to, you don't use a GPS unit? Are you using paper maps when you drive to unfamiliar places? Are you that good a driver, or pilot, that you can just look outside and fly to far off unfamiliar places?

Wow, you must be great.
Click to expand...

(I know your response wasn't directed at me.)

When I drive to an unfamiliar city, I use a map.
These days, it usually isn't a paper map ... But I don't need or usually use GPS to keep up with my route. I prefer to know where I am and where I'm going, to have the lay of the land.

You can do the same while flying with your beloved I toys ... Even when you can't get a GPS signal.
 
Please, tell me this is all a joke!
was this airport a few hundred miles away?
A paper sectional is still available, as is all airport information is readily avilable online for pre flight planning. And a printer for the computer will get all that information to you from your computer screen to bring with you.
 
Not wanting to bash the OP for his wanting the additional security and situational awareness of the tablet. About a year and a half ago I had a scheduled BFR. When we met he asked me to put away my iFly and plan to KXXX airport the old fashioned way.I had to use the POH to calculate taxi fuel, time to climb, enroute fuel, W&B. I used a whiz wheel for my enroute heading figuring in all the variables. Since the airport didn't have an on field VOR I didn't even have that.

I remember looking at him like you want me to do what???? It took me a bit longer but I figured it out and off we went with nothing but a starting course and some visual references. Know what, I made it just fine.

We all like our gadgets and they have made flight much easier than when I learned in the 80's, but it was good to find out I still had the old stuff tucked away in the recesses of my mind. One day the GPS will NOT work and we will HAVE to use dead reckoning, or VORS, or what ever else is available.

Just my $.02 worth, YMMV.
 
docmirror said:
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.

All this whining about other means of nav are fine, and anyone can use other means. But - the best means, and the best situational tool was not avail and the right decision was to scrub the flight unless or until the main nav tool is working.

GPS outages are vanishingly small and also typically of very short duration. If the GPS was avail during the take off, and later failed, I'm sure the OP could have used radio or DR to get somewhere, but the principle utility is just so much better.
Click to expand...

Has everyone (or anyone) said he made the wrong call on scrubbing the flight?
 
bbridges51 said:
... when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
Click to expand...

Where is your sense of adventure? 80nm is less than an hour and if you fail you can simply return home.

I remember my first flight across the sierra in my Quad City Challenger ultra-light, From Mammoth to Mariposa. I did have a handheld with a VOR, I didn't have enough gas for a return flight if I couldn't find the field. My backup plan was to continue to the valley and land on a road.
 
I seem to be a little late on this thread and haven't read all the post yet,
but,
You are not going to find love on this board. However, if you earn it, you can feel respect. But pilots tend to give respect to pilots that know how to fly and navigate, or are trying to learn. People that learn to be dependent of electronic gizmos early in their flying career, and refuse to learn the basics of VFR navigation, and are not open to advice from more seasoned pilots, are probably not going to be earning a lot of respect.

If you haven't already, I suggest an apology and a promise to try to learn to navigate. What are you going to do some day when you are in sticks and we have a GPS outage? They can happen.

bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
I believe i've found the problem. Location Services on the iPad needs to be on and FF needs to access them for some reason while connected to the DUAL GPS. Why? who knows? In any case, when i updated to IOS 8, Apple changed Location Services so that they were turned off. Once i turned them back on, FF connected to the GPS.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
Click to expand...
 
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