Lost Trust in Foreflight

midlifeflyer said:
Ah. Very nice. :). So no ILS approaches for you (if you fly under IFR), huh.
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Sure I can. It more perfectly emulates an ILS than any needles ever did. It also generates a highway in the sky (HITS) approach to any runway in America -- even grass strips.

Just fly through the projected white squares, right to the numbers. Don't want to bother with even that? Flip on the autopilot, and let it do it for you.

Is it legal? Nope. But if I ever need it, I'm glad it's in my toolbox, and I practice with it frequently.
 
I've had similar issue with Dual this weekend. The built in was working fine, and thus the FF was usable. Try it without the Dual, perhaps it would still work for you. And yes, as a newbie pilot, FF is not my primary tool, but I would not leave on XC without one. This weekend \I fat fingered the center frequency while in class Bravo and was able to sort out the mistake (off by one digit) with FF. Saved me the embarrassment of going back to the previous guy (who was busy) and saved everyone else little bit of time on the busy channel.
 
darthnomster said:
I guess my point is that he asked for help in figuring out how to use Foreflight w/ his iPad. He didn't ask for a critique on his ADM, choice of navigation methods, or anything else. He happened to mention that he scrubbed a flight because he couldn't get Foreflight working. The bulk of the responses ignored the question asked, and proceeded to bash the dude on a topic for which he wasn't seeking comment.
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Possibly because most of us viewed the original post as being two parts - first, there's something wrong with FF and second, he depends on FF as his sole navigation source. The first issue was promptly dealt with, and was useful data to many of us here.

The criticism is on the second part of the posting - single method of navigation with refusal to consider use the 430 (and he admitted he's not that familiar with the 430) or non-GPS navigation.
 
petrolero said:
*He already posted that he used his phone as his backup.
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iPad & iPhone are the same technology. If both are running the same version of iOS and the same version of FF, the same problems will occur regardless of which device.
 
petrolero said:
Check the first 5 posts.
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Only Cap'n Ron referred to not using the tablet and that was only because he felt it might be a distraction. The rest referred to having backups (which don't need to be paper; mine aren't) or using alternative means of identifying location and even specifically the use of the tablet as a chart reader without GPS services.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Sure I can. It more perfectly emulates an ILS than any needles ever did. It also generates a highway in the sky (HITS) approach to any runway in America -- even grass strips.

Just fly through the projected white squares, right to the numbers. Don't want to bother with even that? Flip on the autopilot, and let it do it for you.

Is it legal? Nope. But if I ever need it, I'm glad it's in my toolbox, and I practice with it frequently.
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Hence my comment. In an emergency, of course, all bets are off about what one uses.

BTW, the "very nice" wasn't sarcastic. I looked at the website.
 
darthnomster said:
Maybe I'm being naïve here, but I expect better from a community of pilots.
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Frankly, I think the community responded to the challenge correctly. If this pilot needed a strong cold shower to make him think and question his practices - all the better perhaps it will make him a safer/better pilot. Because I think the scenario he described bordered on comedy (originally when I started reading it sounded like a joke) - a pilot arrives at the airport and finds a perfectly fine airplane with not a bad panel (430 is certainly a very nice navigation instrument, this is not a 60-ties panel) yet decides not to go ahead with his VFR flight because his consumer electronics gadget he carries malfunctions. If he argued that this Ipad carried some critical maps he couldn't do without that would be sort of understandable but arguing that this was his primary navigation tool sounded really bad.
 
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9 pages and over 200 replies :goofy: At least we know what gets the crowd roaring. Now I feel obligated to throw in my 2 cents.

If your apprehension exceeds a safe margin for growth then walk away regardless of the reason. That would be the "s" in IMSAFE

I do have to admit last month I got the the airport for a planned IFR trip in an airplane with manual radios, no GPS and one working CDI (no glideslope) and of course I left my IPAD/ Stratus back at the office charging.

The initial feeling was bummer, probably should scrap the flight since I dont have my normal tools with me and the airplane is barley IFR legal. This was a bad sinking feeling, since it was a business flight.

But after a minute, and looking into what was causing my stress (mostly finding frequencies in the Darn AFD), I went into the FBO, grabbed the necessary charts AFD's for the two states I was flying in, a pad of paper started plotting and writing down all the frequencies I needed (in case my paper book rebooted or fell on the floor:rofl:) This had now become a challenge...

Yes it all went well....Took off marginal, got on top, and flew a localizer approach at my destination, Had a blast, boosted my confidence and probably helped with my CRM.
 
The OP asked for advice, which he got in great abundance. I may be harsh but I will throw in my opinion. I don't believe his CFI should have signed off his BFR without making sure he could operate all the equipment in his plane. The OP said he did not know how to operate the 430 or the VOR receivers. What else did he not know how to use? Perhaps if the CFI restricted him to local flights until he demonstrated better knowledge it would have been more reasonable but going away from his home/practice area without knowing how to use the navigation equipment in his plan was not a safe thing to be signed off for.
 
docmirror said:
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.

All this whining about other means of nav are fine, and anyone can use other means. But - the best means, and the best situational tool was not avail and the right decision was to scrub the flight unless or until the main nav tool is working.

GPS outages are vanishingly small and also typically of very short duration. If the GPS was avail during the take off, and later failed, I'm sure the OP could have used radio or DR to get somewhere, but the principle utility is just so much better.
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I agree, wtf - judgmental people on here. Basically a new pilot, with a 42 year gap and he wants the safety of a 'modern device'. Chill out self righteous ones.
 
dcotton said:
I agree, wtf - judgmental people on here. Basically a new pilot, with a 42 year gap and he wants the safety of a 'modern device'. Chill out self righteous ones.
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Then he shouldn't be flying around until he is proficient with the 430 that happened to be mounted in the panel. That is a safe modern device, ipads are toys. This is what happens to a country when everyone gets a medal for showing up.:lol:
 
everone forgot the point he wants to use fore flight feels more comfy i feel that too when going ion long trip using vor and paper i mean come on this is 2014
 
timwinters said:
Allow me to refresh the memory of all you aviation gods as to what was said in post #60. A post that you apparently continue to overlook...or ignore...on purpose because acknowledging it might just spoil your wienie roast.



Not all of us were instantly given the wisdom provide by 500 hours of flying time. Something many here are obviously forgetting.

I presently don't have anyone blocked but that may soon change. And it's amazing how they're all relative new additions to this site.
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I didn't miss that post. Its great. Everyone, regardless of experience, benefits from recurrent training. I think its great he is working on his weak areas. I'm just emphasizing that there are a few more things he should add to the list for his next trip to the CFI.

I think the folks saying he has no business flying are tools. Hope no one is lumping me in with them.
 
I think there are only two or three qualified celestial navigators on the forum. I'm one of them. I'm also trained in use of Consolan, four course ranges, pressure navigation, and driftmeters.

I think the OP did exactly the right thing by canceling a flight about which he was uncomfortable.

Anybody who beats him up for that is doing the whole GA community a huge disservice.
 
Who said he shouldn't have canceled?

Lots of people, including me, said he shouldn't have needed to. Big difference.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I didn't miss that post. Its great. Everyone, regardless of experience, benefits from recurrent training. I think its great he is working on his weak areas. I'm just emphasizing that there are a few more things he should add to the list for his next trip to the CFI.

I think the folks saying he has no business flying are tools. Hope no one is lumping me in with them.
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One thing i learned as an educator, having retired after a 38 year career, is that great knowledge of a topic is no indication of one's ability to teach. I would say this is also true in aviation. Those who think they know everything tend to try to slam their students into their own box, not the box that student needs. You help students by listening, demonstrating, providing controlled flustering (guided practice) and independent practice. Everything changes. whether it's teaching and learning techniques, technology, or students' learning needs. Those who try to teach today with styles created in the 70's are doomed to fail.

no, i don't lump you into the same boat and i thank you for your advice. i will heed it.
 
JimNtexas said:
I think the OP did exactly the right thing by canceling a flight about which he was uncomfortable.
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He did the right thing cancelling but for a wrong reason.
I would cancel for being unfamiliar with the primary NAV instrument in his panel, not because an Ipad did not work.
 
bbridges51 said:
One thing i learned as an educator, having retired after a 38 year career, is that great knowledge of a topic is no indication of one's ability to teach. I would say this is also true in aviation. Those who think they know everything tend to try to slam their students into their own box, not the box that student needs. You help students by listening, demonstrating, providing controlled flustering (guided practice) and independent practice. Everything changes. whether it's teaching and learning techniques, technology, or students' learning needs. Those who try to teach today with styles created in the 70's are doomed to fail.

no, i don't lump you into the same boat and i thank you for your advice. i will heed it.
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Well....

That explains ALOT.......:yes:

38 years ago the U.S youth were number one in the world in knowledge...

Now after spending trillions of dollars on the Dept of Education and raising teacher salaries 400% in those 38 years and giving them tenure to ply their trade untested and unchallenged....

The youth in the U.S are now 36 in the world.... And behind several undeveloped nations around the world...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:.....

So... My suggestion is to take your huge retirement check we are all paying for..... and get some refresher training in how to properly navigate in an aircraft using that same requirements needed to get a PPL...

Rant off.....

Ps... Thanks a ton for making our youth stupid...:mad::mad:.....

Carry on.....
 
Ben, just how are you, as a Wyoming resident, paying the retirement for a California teacher?

So, how long ago were you educated?
 
N801BH said:
Well....

That explains ALOT.......:yes:

38 years ago the U.S youth were number one in the world in knowledge...

Now after spending trillions of dollars on the Dept of Education and raising teacher salaries 400% in those 38 years and giving them tenure to ply their trade untested and unchallenged....

The youth in the U.S are now 36 in the world.... And behind several undeveloped nations around the world...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:.....

So... My suggestion is to take your huge retirement check we are all paying for..... and get some refresher training in how to properly navigate in an aircraft using that same requirements needed to get a PPL...

Rant off.....

Ps... Thanks a ton for making our youth stupid...:mad::mad:.....

Carry on.....
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I think you may be mis-informed on this.

Most place I've lived, teachers make a very poor salary, especially given their education and the time they took to earn their degrees. I suspect a starting pilot for a regional carrier makes more for a starting salary. I hope, where you live, teachers are paid a decent wage for their responsibilities.

Next, how much responsibility should parents take for their children's education? How much do they actually take? Too many parents consider behavior issues to be school problems and not theirs.

Tenure? I do see both sides of that discussion. At universities, tenure is generally earned after a period of years but I don't know how it works in public schools.

I've seen some schools in India. They do very well with much less than American schools, chiefly because the parents drive discipline and make sure their children keep up with the lesson materials at home.
 
murphey said:
iPad & iPhone are the same technology. If both are running the same version of iOS and the same version of FF, the same problems will occur regardless of which device.
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Is that true?

Don't they have different GPS receivers ?
 
N801BH said:
38 years ago the U.S youth were number one in the world in knowledge...
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Well, that's when I was in school and I can tell you I think you're wrong ...

N801BH said:
Now after spending trillions of dollars on the Dept of Education and raising teacher salaries 400% in those 38 years and giving them tenure to ply their trade untested and unchallenged....

The youth in the U.S are now 36 in the world.... And behind several undeveloped nations around the world...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:.....
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My son just graduated from a super magnet school, took all advanced classes and graduated with a 3.8 and SAT above 2100 (he was not top 10%). Out of 660 students, the "B" crowd doesn't start until student 371 at his school. Chance of top 10% at that school? Texas and Texas A&M only want top 7%. I can tell you for certain the courses at that school FAR exceed what I was seeing in highschool ... also wasn't as grade competitive as it is now.
 
bbridges51 said:
One thing i learned as an educator, having retired after a 38 year career, is that great knowledge of a topic is no indication of one's ability to teach. I would say this is also true in aviation. Those who think they know everything tend to try to slam their students into their own box, not the box that student needs. You help students by listening, demonstrating, providing controlled flustering (guided practice) and independent practice. Everything changes. whether it's teaching and learning techniques, technology, or students' learning needs. Those who try to teach today with styles created in the 70's are doomed to fail.

no, i don't lump you into the same boat and i thank you for your advice. i will heed it.
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One thing I learned as an educator, still going strong after 46 years with no thought of retirement just yet, is that students will mimic their teachers' actions, even the wrong parts. In particular, I think I've had some of your students in my college classroom and had to reteach them proper spelling, punctuation, and grammar.

Thank God I learned to teach in the '60s. I'd hate to think I had to relearn it all over again in the '70s.

Jim
 
MAKG1 said:
Ben, just how are you, as a Wyoming resident, paying the retirement for a California teacher?

So, how long ago were you educated?
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Based on California's MASSIVE deficit... It will be real soon all Americans will pay to bail out that poorly run fiscal state...

That sir means I will be paying.....
 
N801BH said:
Based on California's MASSIVE deficit... It will be real soon all Americans will pay to bail out that poorly run fiscal state...

That sir means I will be paying.....
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Excuse me, sir, but right now we are trying to figure out how to redistribute the SURPLUS from this year's budget. Most of the DEFICIT years were caused by a blockhead actor as governor instead of somebody who knew what the hell he was doing.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Excuse me, sir, but right now we are trying to figure out how to redistribute the SURPLUS from this year's budget. Most of the DEFICIT years were caused by a blockhead actor as governor instead of somebody who knew what the hell he was doing.

Jim
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Hope that all works out for you guys........

You must have your debt down to 50 billion by now...:yikes:..

Ps... Don't forget to add all the unfunded pensions of all the state workers that they don't include in their balance sheet..;)
 
N801BH said:
Ps... Don't forget to add all the unfunded pensions of all the state workers that they don't include in their balance sheet..;)
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We state workers are supremely aware of the unfunded pension liability and have agreed to have more taken out of our paychecks to bring that little problem into conformance.

Jim
 
I think I've had some of your students in my college classroom and had to reteach them proper spelling, punctuation, and grammar.
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Wow, over a couple of non-capitalized words. That's interestingly overly anal, especially in today's world of iPad/iPhone and voice to text communication.

And that caps over 200 posts of:

cappadocia_penis_rocks.jpg


I think this thread has run its course...of course, I thought that after post 10.
 
weirdjim said:
Excuse me, sir, but right now we are trying to figure out how to redistribute the SURPLUS from this year's budget. Most of the DEFICIT years were caused by a blockhead actor as governor instead of somebody who knew what the hell he was doing.

Jim
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If you think Brown knows what he is doing, you are delusional. He didn't when he was Governor in the 1970s (I lived in California then) and he doesn't now. Not unless you think socialism is the way to go. As far as redistributing a surplus is concerned, how about giving it back to the people it was stolen from in the first place - the taxpayers? And, if I recall correctly, spending originates in the Assembly, not in the Governor's office. And who has controlled the legislature over the years? Hum?
 
So, let me get this straight. California sucks if it has a deficit, and it sucks if it has a surplus. I guess every state sucks, then.

Some people just can't be satisfied….
 
MAKG1 said:
So, let me get this straight. California sucks if it has a deficit, and it sucks if it has a surplus. I guess every state sucks, then.

Some people just can't be satisfied….
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Having tens of billions in debt is what sucks. The surplus is unsustainable.

We are less than 3 months from a huge new global warming gas tax. Increasing our taxes will cool the climate how?
 
Ghery said:
And, if I recall correctly, spending originates in the Assembly, not in the Governor's office. And who has controlled the legislature over the years? Hum?
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It originates in the Assembly, but the final veto is with the Governor. No signee, no taxee.

Jim
 
danhagan said:
Texas and Texas A&M only want top 7%. I can tell you for certain the courses at that school FAR exceed what I was seeing in highschool ... also wasn't as grade competitive as it is now.
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Things have changed - when I was there, both Texas and A&M were required to accept anyone who graduated in the top 75% from a Texas high school. Of course there was no guarantee they stayed past the first semester....
 
weirdjim said:
One thing I learned as an educator, still going strong after 46 years with no thought of retirement just yet, is that students will mimic their teachers' actions, even the wrong parts. In particular, I think I've had some of your students in my college classroom and had to reteach them proper spelling, punctuation, and grammar.

Thank God I learned to teach in the '60s. I'd hate to think I had to relearn it all over again in the '70s.

Jim
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I've been teaching computer science part-time at the university level for more than 20 years and the style, the technology, the books really don't matter. It's the fundamentals of the subject. I have developed/presented/delivered in X different methods (lecture/lab, online, self-paced, yada yada yada) but without comprehension of the fundamentals, the glitz, the bling is irrelevant and usually distracting.
 
weirdjim said:
One thing I learned as an educator, still going strong after 46 years with no thought of retirement just yet, is that students will mimic their teachers' actions, even the wrong parts. In particular, I think I've had some of your students in my college classroom and had to reteach them proper spelling, punctuation, and grammar.

Thank God I learned to teach in the '60s. I'd hate to think I had to relearn it all over again in the '70s.

Jim
Click to expand...

I've been teaching computer science part-time at the university level for more than 20 years and the style, the technology, the books really don't matter. It's the fundamentals of the subject. I have developed/presented/delivered in X different methods (lecture/lab, online, self-paced, yada yada yada) but without comprehension of the fundamentals, the glitz, the bling is irrelevant and usually distracting.

And there aint no warm fuzzles, either. Software works or it doesn't. Nothing in between.
 
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