Don't worry about it Brian. Keep your re-training on schedule.
Be thankful this isn't the Red Board where the nasty people are! (No need for you to know what that means - it's meant for others here)
Lost Trust in Foreflight
- Thread starter LauraE51
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Be thankful this isn't the Red Board where the nasty people are! (No need for you to know what that means - it's meant for others here)
You don't? Perhaps I missed some comment in another thread, but what glass panel system are you flying that doesn't have a VLOC?Wait...I don't even HAVE a VOR in my new plane.
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+1
I'm all for modern(ish) navigation. I have a 430 and file direct whenever I can and love using FF on my iPad to track my progress. But I'm also tuning VOR's on NAV 2 as I fly because 1.) It's fun and breaks up the boredom, 2.) Keeps me in practice, and 3.) I'll know about where I am if the new stuff goes TU.
Always have a backup plan (and maybe a backup backup) and the skills to use it.
Sorry. I have to disagree with you. At least with the "don't fly in my airspace" macho BS. Whether it was a lack of navigation knowledge/skill on the one hand or concern with what else might go wrong with the system providing the only charts on board, he made a judgement call that a piece of equipment was not functioning properly and stayed on the ground.
On top of that, attack invites defense. His reaction to the constant harangue is quite understandable. Even the statements that some see as evidence of "denial" need to be viewed in that context.
I'm glad you would be willing to take off with malfunctioning equipment that you expect to use in flight when you don't know the extent of the malfunction. Kindly stay out of my back yard.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm not suggesting he should have taken off anyway. Because I don't think he should be taking off at all, with or without it. His iPad problem is literally completely irrelevant. After the first few sentences of his first post, the iPad was no longer even the topic of this thread.
The problem is that he does not have the required skill and knowledge to safely fly an airplane anywhere. He needs dual instruction time and ground school. Not a more reliable iPad.
The problem is that he does not have the required skill and knowledge to safely fly an airplane anywhere. He needs dual instruction time and ground school. Not a more reliable iPad.
Indiana_Pilot
Line Up and Wait
Well this made for some interesting "Monday morning reading" ! 
Just to throw my opinion in there.. I use my iPad for navigation but always check myself using charts and VOR's.. I think it's fun to find myself using radio navigation.. but maybe that's just me ?
Just to throw my opinion in there.. I use my iPad for navigation but always check myself using charts and VOR's.. I think it's fun to find myself using radio navigation.. but maybe that's just me ?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
And we wonder why so many people have left here and why fly-ins, like Gaston's, have gotten so much smaller?
I've flown with about a dozen pilots who couldn't find their ass without their GPS. I've flown with a couple who couldn't find their ass with a GPS and who overflew destination airports even though the airport was clearly displayed in front of them on their GPS.
Would I voluntarily sit in the back seat and fly with them again? No. But they're all flying regularly and are still alive.
They're all over 50 BTW, and one over 70.
I also note that almost all who were overtly jerks in this thread have been here for less than two or three years.
I believe the OP adequately and accurately described why he did what he did and where he was in his training way back in post #60 and yet another 100+ posts of lambastings continued...
...stay classy folks.
I've flown with about a dozen pilots who couldn't find their ass without their GPS. I've flown with a couple who couldn't find their ass with a GPS and who overflew destination airports even though the airport was clearly displayed in front of them on their GPS.
Would I voluntarily sit in the back seat and fly with them again? No. But they're all flying regularly and are still alive.
They're all over 50 BTW, and one over 70.
I also note that almost all who were overtly jerks in this thread have been here for less than two or three years.
I believe the OP adequately and accurately described why he did what he did and where he was in his training way back in post #60 and yet another 100+ posts of lambastings continued...
...stay classy folks.
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magyarflyer
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magyarflyer
An easy way to solve this issue:
Plan your flight in advance,select the airports you are going to fly over or land, print one approach plate of each (if you know the winds better) use those printed pages to scribble your clearance, file always ifr or flight following. You probable had your iPhone handy, guess what, there are approach plates on your iPhone and gps on it if you are so dependent on gadgets. Paper backups are the best. Airnav is free.
Plan your flight in advance,select the airports you are going to fly over or land, print one approach plate of each (if you know the winds better) use those printed pages to scribble your clearance, file always ifr or flight following. You probable had your iPhone handy, guess what, there are approach plates on your iPhone and gps on it if you are so dependent on gadgets. Paper backups are the best. Airnav is free.
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I'm not sure filing IFR, obtaining clearances and printing approach plates is an "easy way to solve this issue" for
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Post a link when you create the new thread please.
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
Brian,
When you got your PPL GPS didn't exist. You navigated by VOR, Ded Reckoning, and Pilotage.. Maybe even ADF. Put down the whizbang tech, and look out the window. Please, get some remedial training with a GOOD CFI before you become yet another statistic. We have enough issues with bad press.
Not being a jerk, but being real. Even when I'm flying IFR with GPS, i will still check my position with VOR, against the chart.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Glutton for punishment?
Now - my understanding of the Luddites were workers who trashed advanced machinery so that labor had to be done by hand. Sort of like uber-unionist movement. So I think this is a strained simile. Maybe Amish would be more apropos(reject reliance on technology)? :wink2:
JoseCuervo
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A couple of issues here:
First, the title points to the wrong concern. There is nothing wrong with his ForeFlight. It worked. There is no reason to ask FF to solve the "problem" and issue fixes. ForeFlight still would have been a great source for a current chart and a great source for the airport info on his destination.
Second, his lost "trust" should be in his (OP) ability to manage, care, and feed the technology (IPad and Bluetooth connections) in the plane, or in his recliner in his house. Just, as I'm the old days, we still have to mange and spend time. Instead of buying new sectionals every few months, we now need to download new info from ForeFlight and from Apple. These are pretty straight forward, but, they have to be done, and understood what changes happen to the Settings with each time Apple sends a new iOS.
Third, as for not using the 430 in the panel, I too went thru a "long time away BFR" and didn't understand how to use the GPS in the panel. During the BFR work, we worked more on plane skills, and the GPS instruction was the instructor spinning knobs and magenta lines showing up. He tried to teach it, but with a plane motor running, you don't have the best environment sitting on the ramp. I learned to use the panel mount GPS by going flying, doing a 2 hour cross-country by myself and spinning the knobs, eventually figuring out how to use it. Flying is a better learning than downloading simulators and dry manuals. (I also had ForeFlight, so I had plenty of backups.). Go fly, learn the 430, you will come to love it.
Fourth, for those who refuse to use the iPad in flight, I scratch my head. There is a ton of information in that device, and, it isn't unreliable. Every cross country it takes 2 minutes to enter the route and have ForeFlight plan the route. Do it at home, turn it on when you get to the airport, and you have a great "pencil and chart" drawn for navigation, dead reckoning, pilotage, etc, plus all the AFD info, plus scratch pad, plus camera, plus...etc... There are many things FF does better than a pencil and chart can ever do, example is rubber banding.
Fifth, as for decision to scrap the flight, who cares? He gets that decision. It is obvious he is still in the learning mode, and that is awesome he is cautious, and, awesome he knows he is still learning and not invincible. I can't imagine not being able to fly 80nm without navigation aids, as I would just IFR it, I follow roads, rivers, and railroad tracks, and I pretty much know all of them within 80nm. As soon as he gets more comfortable, he should be able to fire up and fly 80nm without any navigation aids but looking out the window and enjoying watching landmarks pass beneath his plane. He ain't there, but he will get there, someday.
Sixth, as for the BFR quality, I think each pilot owns those, and should provide input into what needs refreshed. My next one will not be planning 2 hour cross countries and dealing with imaginary radio failures. I have real world, actual areas I want to improve and be trained/reviewed.
First, the title points to the wrong concern. There is nothing wrong with his ForeFlight. It worked. There is no reason to ask FF to solve the "problem" and issue fixes. ForeFlight still would have been a great source for a current chart and a great source for the airport info on his destination.
Second, his lost "trust" should be in his (OP) ability to manage, care, and feed the technology (IPad and Bluetooth connections) in the plane, or in his recliner in his house. Just, as I'm the old days, we still have to mange and spend time. Instead of buying new sectionals every few months, we now need to download new info from ForeFlight and from Apple. These are pretty straight forward, but, they have to be done, and understood what changes happen to the Settings with each time Apple sends a new iOS.
Third, as for not using the 430 in the panel, I too went thru a "long time away BFR" and didn't understand how to use the GPS in the panel. During the BFR work, we worked more on plane skills, and the GPS instruction was the instructor spinning knobs and magenta lines showing up. He tried to teach it, but with a plane motor running, you don't have the best environment sitting on the ramp. I learned to use the panel mount GPS by going flying, doing a 2 hour cross-country by myself and spinning the knobs, eventually figuring out how to use it. Flying is a better learning than downloading simulators and dry manuals. (I also had ForeFlight, so I had plenty of backups.). Go fly, learn the 430, you will come to love it.
Fourth, for those who refuse to use the iPad in flight, I scratch my head. There is a ton of information in that device, and, it isn't unreliable. Every cross country it takes 2 minutes to enter the route and have ForeFlight plan the route. Do it at home, turn it on when you get to the airport, and you have a great "pencil and chart" drawn for navigation, dead reckoning, pilotage, etc, plus all the AFD info, plus scratch pad, plus camera, plus...etc... There are many things FF does better than a pencil and chart can ever do, example is rubber banding.
Fifth, as for decision to scrap the flight, who cares? He gets that decision. It is obvious he is still in the learning mode, and that is awesome he is cautious, and, awesome he knows he is still learning and not invincible. I can't imagine not being able to fly 80nm without navigation aids, as I would just IFR it, I follow roads, rivers, and railroad tracks, and I pretty much know all of them within 80nm. As soon as he gets more comfortable, he should be able to fire up and fly 80nm without any navigation aids but looking out the window and enjoying watching landmarks pass beneath his plane. He ain't there, but he will get there, someday.
Sixth, as for the BFR quality, I think each pilot owns those, and should provide input into what needs refreshed. My next one will not be planning 2 hour cross countries and dealing with imaginary radio failures. I have real world, actual areas I want to improve and be trained/reviewed.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
His attitude speaks volumes about him doesn't it? We point out that he has no clue how to safely operate an aircraft and requires training to be safe. He calls us names and accuses us of simply disliking technology.
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Key element right there. Having knowledge of the initial landmarks leading up to the airport and features surrounding it make going somewhere new a much easier task.
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MikeELP
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Mike Bruening
On the contrary, Brian. You should be able to OPEN your eyes...look outside the airplane, and find your way to your destination.
I love technology as much as the next guy...but sometimes when the tech stuff craps out, we still need to be able to get from point A to point B by just using visual landmarks. IFR. "I Follow Roads"
Mike
darthnomster
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FlyLikeAGirl'sHubs
I'm not sure what it is about online pilot message boards that brings out the best in people. I'll just say the key to getting a reasonable answer to your question around here is to pretend you're talking to an opposing lawyer. Don't put anything in your posted question that isn't strictly needed to get an answer to your question. Make sure your post doesn't include information that someone could possibly criticize. Folks will ignore the other 95% of your post so they can pounce on that. Makes me wonder why I come here... 
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
My Horizon HXr EFIS can emulate a VOR, but it's using GPS signals to do it. No more 1930s radios on board.
While there can be a tendency to jump on posters here, I believe the OP is taking offense to helpful statements. This one, for example:
Nothing harsh about that, in my opinion, and it could help him become a better pilot.
Nothing harsh about that, in my opinion, and it could help him become a better pilot.ClimbnSink
Ejection Handle Pulled
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Greg
Pffft people have been relatively gentle with the guy. For someone that incompetent and ignorant he has been responded to kindly. Now if he was asking about lying on his medical or how to overcome his fourth DUI you'd see some nastiness.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
If he's flying with a chart of unknown vintage, he can actually look at the chart himself and find the date that it expired. Shocking I know.
Now getting back to reality, the OP seemed unable or unwilling to navigate to an unfamiliar airport 80 miles away without FF. As you said, that requires a certain amount of preflight briefing and plotting. Perhaps that took place, perhaps it didn't. But where many of us took exception was that any navigation method other than GPS put the rest of us back in the Stone Age.
It makes me wonder if the OP is flying, oh, I don't know, perhaps a CTLS.
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weirdjim
Ejection Handle Pulled
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weirdjim
A four hour BFR?
Something we can agree on. I won't be using you for a BFR(or if that raises the cockles, a "flight review", conducted every two years). Kuz - yah no, i gots mi prinsipalds.
No, read what I said. PLAN a flight to an airport two hours away. Once I see in the first 15 minutes that you have a high probability of completing the flight as planned, we go on to the next item on the BFR checklist. And yes, luddite that I am, I still say BFR because that's exactly what it is. FR is two thirds of the B and is still accurate.
Sheesh ... and I design avionics for a living. You'da thunk I would be on the side of "technology solves all problems". You'da been wrong, been on too many design reviews where a single component failure would have placed the whole aircraft and crew in deep kimchee.
Jim
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
If he was flying a Cirrus, it would be almost TOO cliche.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
Agree 100%. It has become pretty much impossible to post here without the thread devolving, usually over some minor nit.
Here's the bottom line. The guy didn't spend an hour preparing to fly to his destination -- a place he'd never been before -- via pilotage only, because he didn't think he HAD to. He didn't have a paper chart* to mark up with landmarks and points of interest, which is the way we used to do it in the old days.
He scrubbed, after dicking around with the iPad for an hour. Good decision, IMHO.
All you super pilots who would have blasted off anyway, charts be damned, apparently don't remember how much time it took to prepare for a cross-country flight, pre-GPS. I used to spend HOURS with charts, and facility directories, getting ready for a simple VFR flight to a non-controlled airfield.
His decision to scrub makes perfect sense, to me.
* - This is his only obvious error. Never rely on a single electronic source for charts. We don't carry hard copies anymore, but only because we have charts in two separate, unrelated electronic formats on board.
MAKG1
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It takes me about 10 minutes for an unknown location with complex routing (e.g., hostile terrain to avoid).
Not relying exclusively on a toy GPS in flight has nothing to do with preflight planning. Foreflight is a nice planning tool. There are several others.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Since a large percentage of pilots have now abandoned paper, I think the attacks on the OP as having "Magenta Line Syndrome" are pretty hypocritical and, sadly, typical of this board.
I have flown with paper charts as have many of you and they are inferior to flying with a moving sectional except in one way: they don't have a battery. But in every other regard, they suck compared to moving map.
I do, however, think the OP was off base with the original post as he fairly quickly found out.
When you upgrade to iOS 8, one of the first things it asks upon restart is whether you want to enable Location Services. So the user didn't enable that feature and then prematurely blamed ForeFlight. No big deal there if OP acknowledges his mistake with a contrite mea culpa.
But from the first few replies, this thread devolved into the nastiness that I dislike about anonymous internet forums.
I have flown with paper charts as have many of you and they are inferior to flying with a moving sectional except in one way: they don't have a battery. But in every other regard, they suck compared to moving map.
I do, however, think the OP was off base with the original post as he fairly quickly found out.
When you upgrade to iOS 8, one of the first things it asks upon restart is whether you want to enable Location Services. So the user didn't enable that feature and then prematurely blamed ForeFlight. No big deal there if OP acknowledges his mistake with a contrite mea culpa.
But from the first few replies, this thread devolved into the nastiness that I dislike about anonymous internet forums.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Allow me to refresh the memory of all you aviation gods as to what was said in post #60. A post that you apparently continue to overlook...or ignore...on purpose because acknowledging it might just spoil your wienie roast.
Not all of us were instantly given the wisdom provide by 500 hours of flying time. Something many here are obviously forgetting.
I presently don't have anyone blocked but that may soon change. And it's amazing how they're all relative new additions to this site.
Not all of us were instantly given the wisdom provide by 500 hours of flying time. Something many here are obviously forgetting.
I presently don't have anyone blocked but that may soon change. And it's amazing how they're all relative new additions to this site.
MAKG1
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Why are you grouping using electronic charts with letting the charts navigate for you? These are very different uses, with wildly different risk profiles.
One is fine (assuming adequate backup), the other is foolish. You do not need a GPS to read a chart.
Hypocritical? You're presuming quite a lot. I do not depend on a toy GPS for anything, and I keep myself proficient in radio and visual navigation at all times. Those are the bail-outs. It's also rather nice as a rental pilot to be able to fly with any avionics or none at all.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
*He already posted that he used his phone as his backup.
After reading the thread I don't think that anyone was bashing him for his use of FF. When I do x countries, whether I'm VFR or IFR I don't use a pen, paper,or plotter. I plug in all the information into a 430 like most people and generate a navlog via fltplan.com. The fact that he can't complete a flight because of FF not working is what concerns people. You always need to have a back up, Whether it be another tablet or paper charts. If all the technology goes to crap, I still know how to get to my destination, which is something that the OP doesn't seem to know how to do.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Yes hypocritical. I'm presuming nothing. I just read what several people wrote. That is not presumption.
The presumption is in assuming that the OP can't navigate without the ownship positioned on his chart. That actually is an example of presumption. He has stated that he prefers it. So be it. So do I.
Many people then piled on him and suggested that he jettison iPads and revert to paper. That is actually counterproductive but sadly typical of the internet pilots on this board.
Ah. Very nice.
. So no ILS approaches for you (if you fly under IFR), huh.
I really didn't see very much of that. I think by far most of the "look at the chart" people didn't care if the charts were paper or plastic.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
His phone with the same OS and same operational problem.
To expand on Jay's point above, why do you think the gyro in the TC is typically electric while the gyros in the AI and DG are vacuum? No single point of failure will take out all your gyro instruments.
danhagan
En-Route
They're on you as you have a single fail point (see below):
OK, good job. Now construct a viable second option/backup.
You can, but add in VOR as well and you're fine. Most of my flights are:
1. Pilotage
2. VOR
3. G530
4. Foreflight phone and Ipad
5. Fuel analyzer
They all give me info for position except #5. Items 3,4 and 5 as well as the gauges are all used as cross reference to each other for fuel planning. I don't E6B anymore, but do have a manual one on board as well as the electronic. Item #1 keeps me in glide range to something I can land on in case of engine failure - I'll adjust 2,3 and 4 to make #1 happen. I think that is what the last 200 message are trying to get you to look at ... and later we'll talk about weather planning
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Check the first 5 posts.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Well those problems are not likely to be inflight failures given that he is obviously preflighting his iPad just fine and discovered the connectivity problem on the ground.
But if he flies with location services enabled and starts the flight with FF working, he has 3 GPS units and 2 sources of maps on board. That's plenty of backup, especially given that he has a GNS 430 available also.
Spare me. See above.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
I totally missed that post. However rather than making me more sympathetic toward the OP, it has had the opposite effect, since I did not catch that he had a Garmin 430 in the panel.
With that knowledge, and the knowledge that he had his phone on board as back-up, the decision to scrub due to a ForeFlight failure looks pretty silly, I must admit.
darthnomster
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FlyLikeAGirl'sHubs
Pffft people have been relatively gentle with the guy. For someone that incompetent and ignorant he has been responded to kindly. Now if he was asking about lying on his medical or how to overcome his fourth DUI you'd see some nastiness.
I guess my point is that he asked for help in figuring out how to use Foreflight w/ his iPad. He didn't ask for a critique on his ADM, choice of navigation methods, or anything else. He happened to mention that he scrubbed a flight because he couldn't get Foreflight working. The bulk of the responses ignored the question asked, and proceeded to bash the dude on a topic for which he wasn't seeking comment.
Maybe I'm being naïve here, but I expect better from a community of pilots. This isn't reddit, Facebook or 4Chan (or is it?). The vast majority of pilots that I've met in person have been very friendly, polite people, ESPECIALLY when talking to someone who is a new pilot or someone seeking knowledge or help. The vocal majority on message boards can be judgmental pricks. Do we make no effort to give anyone the benefit of the doubt? How does a community of people who are so accommodating and helpful in the analog/in-person real world gets their claws out so easily on forums?