Lost Trust in Foreflight

bbridges51 said:
Criticizing my path to become a good pilot, or that i even understand what i need to learn, shows me that even great pilots can be jerks.
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You need to toughen up a bit if you're going to post things on the 'interwebs' for public consumption. In this case it just seems that your thread was asking for help and then it turned into people criticizing you for your heavy reliance on Foreflight. These will be opinions you can't change so why even bother.
 
bbridges51 said:
i can only assume that some of them are using a slide-ruler, instead of a calculator, to balance their checkbooks. It worked in the good old days, didn't it?
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A couple of posters were jerks with their responses, but really, I think the majority of the thread was pretty even-handed, at least by the standards of this board.

And you're baiting people into being jerks by posting stuff like your little addendum above. Just like you joked about us not being in the 21st century earlier. We all use these tools, absolutely, but we're also entirely confident in being able to accomplish the flight without them. That's not bravado - pilotage is a fundamental skill set, period.
 
Seems to me the guy came here for help, got well roasted right from post 2 on, and the jerkwad contingent piled on as the thread progressed.

Like I said, everyone on here drives the pink line, and that has a lot to do with their judgmental attitude when another person admits lacking the utility that everyone else uses every flight. Sure, we can DR, we can VOR - but lets be honest, unless the box fails no one does it. Hypocrites.
 
At one point the OP posted that he was not comfortable using the Garmin 430 in the panel. He did not say if this plane was what he got his BFR in to resume flying. I don't understand how someone can use a uncertified unit like FF/Ipad and yet be unable to use a 430. I can't imagine a CFI who would sign off someone on a BFR without making sure they could use the 430 for simple VFR navigation.
 
Jim Logajan said:
A classic case of history being written by the survivors.

Until you or someone else works out the statistics on how many people back in the "good old days" got lost and had to land at the first place of opportunity or ask for help before they ran out of gas versus the pilots of today using perfectly legitimate GPS tools, no one can reasonably claim that pilots using older navigation tools were in any way superior in their training.
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I never claimed to be superior in my training or in any other way....I was just able to perform the same actions that the OP apparently cannot perform without electronic aids. He would benefit from a few hours in a plane without an electrical system.

Bob
 
bbridges51 said:
Yes. it also reminded me of what what we know in the teaching profession. It's possible to be a great mathematician, but a lousy math teacher. Criticizing my path to become a good pilot, or that i even understand what i need to learn, shows me that even great pilots can be jerks.

i can only assume that some of them are using a slide-ruler, instead of a calculator, to balance their checkbooks. It worked in the good old days, didn't it?
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Actually, I've been using software to do this for 20+ years. Every check & credit card is entered into the software. Once a month I reconcile by pushing a button and entering two numbers.

But my physical well-being is not dependent on a computer or software crash, I have paper backup for the financial data.
 
kayoh190 said:
A couple of posters were jerks with their responses, but really, I think the majority of the thread was pretty even-handed, at least by the standards of this board.

And you're baiting people into being jerks by posting stuff like your little addendum above.
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Point taken. you're right. i came here with a question and i came away being treated like a crappy pilot who has no clue. i should have taken the classier route, but fell into the crap that several here were spreading.
 
docmirror said:
but lets be honest, unless the box fails no one does it. Hypocrites.
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So if you had a flight scheduled and discovered your iPad wasn't working, you'd not only scrub it, but come onto this board and tell everyone you were *forced* to scrub it? Because that's what we're talking about here.

And hell, that by itself is absolutely fine. Scrubbing a flight because he wasn't confident is a good call, but I'd say it's also reasonable to suggest that he should brush up on the fundamentals. That's all I'm saying.
 
bbridges51 said:
i should have taken the classier route, but fell into the crap that several here were spreading.
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That's definitely VERY easy to do, and I fall victim to it as well. :wink2:
 
Look, if you weren't confident you could complete the flight safely FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, you are smart to cancel the flight.

Having said that, you need a backup to your Foreflight. Like paper charts and an Airport Facilities Directory.
 
kayoh190 said:
So if you had a flight scheduled and discovered your iPad wasn't working, you'd not only scrub it, but come onto this board and tell everyone you were *forced* to scrub it? Because that's what we're talking about here.

And hell, that by itself is absolutely fine. Scrubbing a flight because he wasn't confident is a good call, but I'd say it's also reasonable to suggest that he should brush up on the fundamentals. That's all I'm saying.
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I'm not the OP. I haven't scrubbed a flight for that reason. The OP was *FORCED* into that for safety of *HIS* flight. I defend and support *HIS* decision. That's what we're talking about here, not *ME*.
 
docmirror said:
I'm not the OP. I haven't scrubbed a flight for that reason. The OP was *FORCED* into that for safety of *HIS* flight. I defend and support *HIS* decision. That's what we're talking about here, not *ME*.
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You're calling us hypocrites. That's the reason for my reply. Yes, most of us follow the magenta line (I do so for work), but I don't think any of us would scrub a recreational VFR flight if we didn't have long range nav capabilities. I support his decision as well, but I don't think even the more jerky replies on this thread indicate a hypocritical line of thought.
 
Man walks into a dentist's office.

Patient: "Doc, I'm losing a lot having a lot of trouble chewing my food because I lost this one tooth here. Can you put another one in the hole?"
Dentist: "Sir, the reason you lost your tooth is you have serious gingivitis throughout your mouth, and if you don't do something about that you'll lose all your teeth. This will take a significant course of treatment."
Patient: "I'm not interested in treatment, I just want you to replace that one tooth."
:sigh:
 
kayoh190 said:
You're calling us hypocrites. That's the reason for my reply. Yes, most of us follow the magenta line (I do so for work), but I don't think any of us would scrub a recreational VFR flight if we didn't have long range nav capabilities. I support his decision as well, but I don't think even the more jerky replies on this thread indicate a hypocritical line of thought.
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Then don't scrub it. No one is asking you to, and no one is saying you or I should. The OP did. then, they apply THEIR standards to someone ELSE. The hypocrisy is that folks that use the same exact tool are crying foul when someone else who doesn't feel comfy without it cancels a flight. It's so clearly a case of; 'I am superior to you plebians because you cancelled a flight for not using the nav tool I use every day. Hrrrumppfff, hrrrumppfff...'

Jeez, why does it require three explanations? And a Webster's definition for every word? (and I admit using the wrong 'principal')
 
Lack of foreflight wouldn't stop me from making a flight, although it might require me to go buy an up to date paper sectional... I always have one but I'm not terribly worried about keeping them current since I use foreflight.

However, that's a bit unfair as I have a garmin 430 in the panel that is always my primary navigation. Now if the 430 was gone AND foreflight/gps wasn't available that would give me a lot of pause. If I was home and about to make a 3 hour cross country "for fun" flight I'd probably cancel it until such time as I could get my 430 fixed... or at least get FF back. If I was away from home, assuming conditions were good day VFR, I'd sit down and fill out an old school nav log, make doubly sure my remaining nav/com (VOR) were working , and go for it.
 
Jim Logajan said:
A classic case of history being written by the survivors.

Until you or someone else works out the statistics on how many people back in the "good old days" got lost and had to land at the first place of opportunity or ask for help before they ran out of gas versus the pilots of today using perfectly legitimate GPS tools, no one can reasonably claim that pilots using older navigation tools were in any way superior in their training.
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You do know that being a pilot is more than flying a plane, almost anyone can fly a plane. A good pilot knows how to handle things when things don't go right, such as losing FF on an I pad.
 
docmirror said:
Jeez, why does it require three explanations? And a Webster's definition for every word? (and I admit using the wrong 'principal')
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Perhaps we're just not on the same page, or we're just talking past each other. Either way, I'll stop wasting your time.
 
I wonder how Lindbergh found Paris, I don't think he was able to recharge his ipad in flight.
 
bobmrg said:
I find this thread hard to believe. Those of us who learned to fly in what you refer to as the stone age managed to navigate to strange airports, sometimes at night :hairraise:, enter the pattern and land. Ever use a Superhomer or a comm radio with four crystals?

This industry is going to the dogs if everyone thinks like you do.

Bob Gardner
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I disagree.

One of the reasons more people are not attracted to flying is that it is HARD.

Yes, people also balk at the cost, but lots of people have expensive hobbies - boats, sports cars, motorcycles, etc. Those things are a lot easier to do than fly.

Although I AGREE that a pilot should have back up plans for possible device failures, I DO NOT agree that using devices like iPads and FF as a primary method of navigation means the industry is "going to the dogs".

IMO, anything we can do to make flying easier (while maintaining safety levels) is a good thing and good for the eventual survival of GA.

Making flying easier is a GOOD THING. Those who think it HAS to be hard or it's not being done correctly are just stroking their egos and trying to keep the club exclusive.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Look, if you weren't confident you could complete the flight safely FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, you are smart to cancel the flight.

Having said that, you need a backup to your Foreflight. Like paper charts and an Airport Facilities Directory.
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Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training. i've watched the tutorials and i've downloaded the Win app. Now it's time to practice it at home and try it in the air.

however, my iphone has been serving as my back-up, but it, also, experienced the same Location Services problem and was not working.
 
TommyG said:
You do know that being a pilot is more than flying a plane, almost anyone can fly a plane. A good pilot knows how to handle things when things don't go right, such as losing FF on an I pad.
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In fact in the very first post the OP wrote "The first time this happened, i was in the air before i noticed and i spent a little too much time playing with my iPad and Foreflight before i gave up."

For the flight in question his preferred navigation tool was inop before he even left the ground. He later posted that he did have a backup. Note that it was a pleasure flight to a new destination, where GPS is really handy once you get near the intended destination (GPS seems to me to be marginally useful over dead reckoning while en route. I've found it really really handy when trying to spot a back country air strip for the first time. Saves time searching, which can really get you lost if you aren't careful.)

I just didn't see that Bob's assertion was entirely useful or relevant, among other things. I imagine if Bob's preferred or primary navigation had been inop before an optional flight he'd have scrubbed too. The difference to me seems to be that currently an iPad with external GPS is frowned upon and cannon fodder for anyone admitting to rely on it for a pleasure flight to a new-to-them airport.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training. i've watched the tutorials and i've downloaded the Win app. Now it's time to practice it at home and try it in the air.

however, my iphone has been serving as my back-up, but it, also, experienced the same Location Services problem and was not working.
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That's because it's the same software as in the iPad.
 
docmirror said:
Then don't scrub it. No one is asking you to, and no one is saying you or I should. The OP did. then, they apply THEIR standards to someone ELSE. The hypocrisy is that folks that use the same exact tool are crying foul when someone else who doesn't feel comfy without it cancels a flight. It's so clearly a case of; 'I am superior to you plebians because you cancelled a flight for not using the nav tool I use every day. Hrrrumppfff, hrrrumppfff...'

Jeez, why does it require three explanations? And a Webster's definition for every word? (and I admit using the wrong 'principal')
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It's possibly that when people are being called liars and hypocrites, they want to be clear on the reasons. I don't think anyone would deny sometimes using the magenta line. And no one's claimed that in this thread. And I don't think anyone here would say that it wasn't a good idea for the OP to cancel this flight under the circumstances. But I think most would agree that the fact that he felt it necessary to cancel this flight is unfortunate.

Like the OP, I learned to fly before GPS was popular and recently returned to flying with low hours. I'm sure flying in Cali is a little different (everything is) but yesterday I flew to an airport 30 miles away without a tablet in a plane with no electrical system. I did it with a chart and looking out the window.

So from one low-time retread to another (the OP), I have nothing to offer with respect to Foreflight because I use FlightPro. But I hope that this experience will impress upon you the importance of not relying on technology. If this failure had occurred on your way home instead of your way out, the option to scrub the flight would be must less attractive.

It is unfortunate that this message couldn't be delivered without ego bruising, but there's probably no room for ego in flying anyway. In the end all that matters is that you're safe and have fun.
 
Ron Levy said:
Man walks into a dentist's office.

Patient: "Doc, I'm losing a lot having a lot of trouble chewing my food because I lost this one tooth here. Can you put another one in the hole?"
Dentist: "Sir, the reason you lost your tooth is you have serious gingivitis throughout your mouth, and if you don't do something about that you'll lose all your teeth. This will take a significant course of treatment."
Patient: "I'm not interested in treatment, I just want you to replace that one tooth."
:sigh:
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:yeahthat:... That's it in a nutshell.. The issue is not the he cancelled the flight... It's what the reason that he cancelled revealed. I don't know why the OP and others can't see that....:dunno:
 
Luigi said:
I wonder how Lindbergh found Paris, I don't think he was able to recharge his ipad in flight.
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He wasn't called "Lucky Lindy" for nothing. Worth reading "Even Lindbergh Got Lost":

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/even-lindbergh-got-lost-3381643/?no-ist

"The magnitude of Lindbergh’s accomplishment led many to believe that transoceanic air navigation was simply a matter of determination. At least 15 people died in ocean-crossing attempts through the rest of 1927, leading to calls for federal regulation."

Relying on dead reckoning has no doubt killed more pilots than relying on GPS moving map on an iPad stop working.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training. i've watched the tutorials and i've downloaded the Win app. Now it's time to practice it at home and try it in the air.

however, my iphone has been serving as my back-up, but it, also, experienced the same Location Services problem and was not working.
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Press the direct to button... the one with a D that has an arrow through it. Use the knobs on the lower right to enter your destination- small knob changes the current letter, big knob moves you to the next. Press ENT twice.

If you don't see something that helps you navigate, big knobs on the lower left. Large knob changes the "chapter" small knob changes the "page". Flip through them and you should find the map... IIRC you probably want to turn the big knob all the way left then turn the small one for nav pages.

There's a lot more to the device, it has a lot more capabilities than this and you should learn them but VFR this should be enough understanding to get you where you need to go.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training. i've watched the tutorials and i've downloaded the Win app. Now it's time to practice it at home and try it in the air.
Click to expand...

The windows software is quite good. You will be proficient in no time!
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this has been a fun day.

As i've shared here and elsewhere, i know, and i feel, that I'm a low time pilot since my return. i'm fully cognoscente of the skill set i need to build to be a great pilot and i know i've work to do to get there. About half my time since my BFR has been on my landings, which i'd like to perfect before i move onto other things like using the Garmin 430 as primary navigation, or playing with the VORs. Given that i'd read that VORs will be phased out in the future, i'm not sure how useful that skill will be.

however, my plan has been to slowly build my skills by going beyond my comfort level and today's flight would have been of help. Could i have programmed the Garmin 430 to be the primary? probably. But i didn't want to. I know my comfort level and i know what i need to learn in the future.

Still, many of you believe i shouldn't be flying, that i'm a danger to myself, or that my CFI was crazy to sign off.

i know i'll continue learning and that i'll take up a CFI when i need the comfort of another pilot when practicing a new skill, as i did last week when i brought along a CFI on a very windy day.

Some of you have tried to be helpful and i thank you for that.
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I agree with you 100% Brian.
I am in a similar situation as you are. I am getting back into aviation after a thirty year lapse.

My reentry plan is similar to yours. As have been coming back I have been prqcticimg EVERYTHING that I learned 30 years ago including "old school" navigation.

But since I no longer learn well while drinking from a fire hose, like I did thirty years ago, I have been slowly expanding my boundaries and breaking through comfort zones.

At this point, I think I would also cancel a flight if my iPad and FF were not working. It's not that I would die if I did not not have the ipad, (I could fumble through using old school) but it would be so much harder that it would take much of the fun out of the flight.

And if the flying ain't fun, what's the use of spending all the money?

Eventually I plan to be able to navigate very well using old school methods, and I can get by using old school methods right now, if I had to. But it's not a preferable way to spend my money and time, at least not now.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training. i've watched the tutorials and i've downloaded the Win app. Now it's time to practice it at home and try it in the air.

however, my iphone has been serving as my back-up, but it, also, experienced the same Location Services problem and was not working.
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You wanted to know your location (getting location services) and expected the iPad to give you this without it being turned on?

I'm glad you got it figured out but I agree that there are many other ways to get where you need to go.
 
Brian,

You definitely made a good decision in canceling the flight when there was a failure in a tool that you use and you weren't comfortable in the remaining tools/knowledge that you had. Going through with the flight could have resulted in a disaster if you tried to go ahead anyways. There have definitely been some pretty scathing posts in response, but I think the underlying message is valid. Don't rely on an iPad or iPhone for your navigation, nor even a Garmin 430. Being able to navigate via the old school methods could definitely save a life in the event technology fails.

I am a student pilot about 33 hours in, and I have specifically refused to buy an iPad and get ForeFlight for now so that I can learn and understand the "old school" methods first. I work in IT, so I know how technology can fail, and I don't want to be left in a bad situation if I were to solely rely on technology to navigate.

It is the internet, take the advice, criticism with a grain of salt. Do what you need to make sure you fly safe, but knowing how to navigate via pilotage, DR, VOR's is important, regardless.

Hopefully the harshness of the posts doesn't turn you off to the board. There are definitely some knowledgable people here, and some really cool people here. Stick around and keep us updated on your progress.

Cheers

-Brian
 
bbridges51 said:
However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
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And a CFI signed you off for a flight review after 42 years out of the loop without determining that you had BASIC pilotage skills? Guess you got what you paid for.

<sigh>

Mike
 
If you truly don't know where you're going, plot it out on paper and have VOR radial tracks to get you there. That way if your GPS craps out you will have a fallback method.

In Norcal for the most part it's hard to get lost but a lot of airports in the foothills and coastal ranges can be hard to find if you don't have some sort of fix to dump you in the vicinity. If all else fails follow the roads and/or the coastline.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this is a lesson in speeding up my Garmin 430 training.
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So your aircraft is 430 equipped?
I was patiently waiting for any info on how this aircraft was equipped.
430 is a very fine aviation instrument, this should be your PRIMARY nav instrument and FF perhaps only a chart reader and backup for navigation. This is how I approach flying and technology - a consumer device like Ipad I would only use as data source (maps, charts, weather?) but never (except in emergency) as navigation tool. On my first VFR solo cross country I didn't have a 430, I could even dream of such a tool, I had a single VOR and had to find Chowchilla airport flying from Hayward.
 
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bbridges51 said:
Today, for the second time Foreflight would not connect to my GPS unit and i was forced to cancel my flight. i'd like to think this was pilot error and i would appreciate advice. Here's the data.

iPad Mini Retina, 32GB (with lots of extra space)
DUAL X150 GPS
Foreflight

Normally, i turn on the Dual first and confirm that bluetooth is working. At that point, i open up my iPad and turn on bluetooth, confirming that it's paired with the Dual. I then check my Dual to confirm the green light is on, showing i have a GPS connection. Finally, i open up Dual's Status Tool on the iPad, which shows how many satellites are connected as well as my current coordinates.

The first time this happened, i was in the air before i noticed and i spent a little too much time playing with my iPad and Foreflight before i gave up. Fortunately, that was a local flight, so no harm was done. When i returned, i got on the foreflight forums which told me the best solution would be to restart both my iPad and the Dual unit.

Which is what i did today, twice. Both times, the Dual was paired with the iPad and the Status tool told me i was connected to satellites and that i had coordinates. However, ForeFlight was telling me that it had NO FIX.

After 30 minutes of playing with FF and the Dual, i gave up, parked the plane, and came home.

At home, i'm finding the same problem. i can't see myself trusting FF again if it won't always connect to GPS. Anyone else have this problem and if so, how did you fix it?
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you are really lucky to find this board for advise. Did you have a second tablet for backup? My (one of two) ipads when overheat they shut down. What would have happened if you were in the boons with your (one and only) Ipad and it shut down? good old dead reckoning (anyone remember?) . When i learned to fly there were no gps, no tablets, a paper chart and half a 6 packs in the old beech i learned.
 
I'm still confused about all the gravitas involved in DR and VOR vis-a-vis the flight review. Even the FAA tilts toward use of the GPS pink line method for the review. In fact, VOR nav isn't even mentioned in the syllabus, and DR gets maybe a few sentences. However, reviewing the computer generated flight plan, and selecting alternatives takes up a rather larger portion of the recommended planning for the flight review.

If it's ok with the FAA not to require, or even discuss VOR navigation, and give DR a cursory glance, then it's fine with me. Of course, the FAA never got anything wrong. Ya know when the only thing that's mentioned is VOR check, that's pretty telling about what the FAA thinks is important. Oh - not one word of emergency nav procedures in the event of GPS outage.
 
This eclipses the need for an operative metal landing calculator prior to departing. This would be funny if it weren't so sad.
 
olasek said:
So your aircraft is 430 equipped?
I was patiently waiting for any info on how this aircraft was equipped.
430 is a very fine aviation instrument, this should be your PRIMARY nav instrument and FF perhaps only a chart reader and backup for navigation. This is how I approach flying and technology - a consumer device like Ipad I would only use as data source (maps, charts, weather?) but never (except in emergency) as navigation tool. On my first VFR solo cross country I didn't have a 430, I could even dream of such a tool, I had a single VOR and had to find Chowchilla airport flying from Hayward.
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I missed that.

Wow.

OP I get the whole technology lapse thing. Get back to the basics. I'm with the rest of the group that says if you can't navigate with your chart or basic VOR aids, get some more training. You need it. It will be beneficial.
 
FWIW, I think the OP displayed good ADM. Clearly the OP has set a personal minimum which is something most if not all of us would recommend to a new or returning pilot (not the specifics of a functional EFB, just having personal minimums), and he stuck to it. That is actually a good thing.

For the OP, if FF would come up but not show your position (not sure how FF works, I am an Android/Garmin guy), could you have panned along as if you had a paper chart? That would have seemed a decent alternative to cancelling the flight, but only if you were comfortable doing so.

It does bring up the subject of backups, which are not only a good idea but required if you are using an EFB type device for anything more than basic situational awareness.

I keep Garmin Pilot on a tablet, with AVARE and the FLTPLN.com EFB apps as backups on my phone, gives me lots of options unless an EMP takes out all the electrics plus the G430 in most of the planes I fly.

Take the intent here, to share experience and suggestions, and filter out the mannerisms some of us have that may seem abrasive, as B17Rex said, the group is good and the experience base is phenomenal.

Welcome back to flying, have fun and be safe.

'Gimp
 
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