Lost Trust in Foreflight

bbridges51 said:
but, feel free to remain in the stone age if you'd like.
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It's not about being a luddite - we just know that technology isn't infallible. Sometimes we're required to do that pilot-y s**t the FAA requires of us.
 
I too think he made the right call if he wasn't confident in his ability. My problem is that the OP seems to think that is the way it should be, rather than having to learn stupid old navigation techniques.

docmirror said:
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.

All this whining about other means of nav are fine, and anyone can use other means. But - the best means, and the best situational tool was not avail and the right decision was to scrub the flight unless or until the main nav tool is working.

GPS outages are vanishingly small and also typically of very short duration. If the GPS was avail during the take off, and later failed, I'm sure the OP could have used radio or DR to get somewhere, but the principle utility is just so much better.
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docmirror said:
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.
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Given that the tool he relied on failed, scrubbing the flight was the right call.

However, relying exclusively on one toy tool was an error.

GPS failures, especially with toy receivers, are very far from vanishingly small. Most failures are in the unit (e.g. dead battery or crash), but the signals themselves can be F'd up.
 
bbridges51 said:
While i began my journey back this summer, i began tracking PoA last fall and am constantly learning from the great posts and comments on this board. I do feel like a low-time pilot, since i've only 12 hours since returning. i DO want to be a better pilot which is why i'm thankful for the electronic tools at our disposal.
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If what you've said is true, then I would think that with 95+% of the respones to this thread in agreement, that your reaction would be different. There is a gap in your training that needs to be addressed and that is all everyone is saying.:yes: It's not an attack but only an attempt to help you see that your thinking on this topic may not be a safe one.
 
JoeSelch said:
Has everyone (or anyone) said he made the wrong call on scrubbing the flight?
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No argument on that -- he definitely made the right call. But if he can't handle being outside his "zone of comfort" without that device, he shouldn't be flying outside that "zone of comfort" at all. Hence, my recommendation for additional training to rebuild those skills so he doesn't have to limit himself like that.
 
docmirror said:
Well, guess I'm the only one who thinks he made the right call. The tool/utility he relies on failed. For whatever reason it wasn't working when historically it has worked. Rather than use a lesser nav method he chose to discontinue for safety reasons.
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JoeSelch said:
Dude can't fly without an iPad; he should stay on the ground.
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Um - not sure why you quoted me again, but that's what I said in post 33. Maybe I said it in a slightly more polite way, but it seems we are in agreement - yes?
 
JoeSelch said:
Dude can't fly without an iPad; he should stay on the ground.
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Not necessarily stay on the ground, but stay in that area he mentioned where he's OK without the iPad working until he gets trained up enough to be OK without the iPad outside that area. The problem I see is his posts suggest he isn't willing to accept that as a limitation and work on overcoming his limited skill/proficiency, and you can't teach someone who isn't ready to learn.
 
docmirror said:
Um - not sure why you quoted me again, but that's what I said in post 33. Maybe I said it in a slightly more polite way, but it seems we are in agreement - yes?
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You're not the only one who thinks he made the right call. Near as I can tell, most everyone agrees and has from the start of this thread. :rolleyes:
 
bbridges51 said:
well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
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I find this thread hard to believe. Those of us who learned to fly in what you refer to as the stone age managed to navigate to strange airports, sometimes at night :hairraise:, enter the pattern and land. Ever use a Superhomer or a comm radio with four crystals?

This industry is going to the dogs if everyone thinks like you do.

Bob Gardner
 
might be feeding the troll here, but just in case, here's my 2 cents worth...

First, you'll find no greater fan of ForeFlight and the iPad then me. I truly believe it has revolutionized the cockpit for the better. Really fantastic to have all that information at one's fingertips without having to fumble thru various maps/books/other sources. Always current, and always with in reach (Can't say that for my paper AF/D) Added benefit for those of us in the 50+ age bracket, being able to "pinch zoom" and actually READ the frequencies, elevations, names etc without difficulty.

That being said, I occasionally leave the gizmo at home and fly off to a new location either by VOR, or <gasp> ded reckoning. I actually find it fun to plot a course, add a wind correction angle and start a stopwatch (OK....digital timer...not quite stone age :D). I strive to make the estimations as close as possible, and game myself in trying to be perfect, or at least better my last "high score".

Again, love the gadget, and with you, when heading out for a long trip, I want the silly thing to work as designed, but always remember, when Murphy's Law is applied to aviation, "MURPHY WAS AN OPTIMIST"
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
Like you I came back a year ago after 30 gone from flying. But, I agree with the rest, even Ron.... sigh.
I apprecite the reminder that when my daughter starts on her ppl there will be no ipad in the plane.
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JoeSelch said:
You're not the only one who thinks he made the right call. Near as I can tell, most everyone agrees and has from the start of this thread. :rolleyes:
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Then you need to reread the thread. :dunno:
 
weirdjim said:
Do your principals have principles?

Jim
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Desperately sorry. I was raised by wolves. I went to public primary school in CA. I have slixdexia. I CLEPed out of Fresh English. I'm an engineer. I -- have no excuse. Beat me like a poor stepchild.
 
Well, this has been a fun day.

As i've shared here and elsewhere, i know, and i feel, that I'm a low time pilot since my return. i'm fully cognoscente of the skill set i need to build to be a great pilot and i know i've work to do to get there. About half my time since my BFR has been on my landings, which i'd like to perfect before i move onto other things like using the Garmin 430 as primary navigation, or playing with the VORs. Given that i'd read that VORs will be phased out in the future, i'm not sure how useful that skill will be.

however, my plan has been to slowly build my skills by going beyond my comfort level and today's flight would have been of help. Could i have programmed the Garmin 430 to be the primary? probably. But i didn't want to. I know my comfort level and i know what i need to learn in the future.

Still, many of you believe i shouldn't be flying, that i'm a danger to myself, or that my CFI was crazy to sign off.

i know i'll continue learning and that i'll take up a CFI when i need the comfort of another pilot when practicing a new skill, as i did last week when i brought along a CFI on a very windy day.

Some of you have tried to be helpful and i thank you for that.
 
bbridges51 said:
well, this wasn't about a simple pattern. i could easily fly into the SF Bay Area or up and down the valley without a GPS unit. THAT's not the problem. However, when flying to a NEW, unfamiliar airport 80nm away, i won't trust simple pilotage to getting me there.
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Brian, with that last sentence you have proven you need more practice with paper charts and pilotage. There is no love/hate here on the board towards you, we're trying to explain that your dependence on a consumer toy when your life is at stake is very poor decision making. There is NO guarantee with GPS. But I will guarantee that other than ballistic missle attacks, the roads, rivers, railroad tracks and mountains will remain where they are on the paper charts and outside the window.
 
bbridges51 said:
So, when you drive to a brand new city and an address you never been to, you don't use a GPS unit? Are you using paper maps when you drive to unfamiliar places? Are you that good a driver, or pilot, that you can just look outside and fly to far off unfamiliar places?

Wow, you must be great.
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We're not great, but we do understand and frequently use all resources and never depend on a single navigation technology. Assuming your iPhone is your backup is still relying on a single navigation source.

Just remember that until 12-15 yrs ago, the general public did not have GPS.

And no, when I travel even in the car I don't use GPS. That's why paper maps have been around for centuries.
 
Jeez. I love it when a guy is ridiculed for doing something strictly for the reason of safety.

What a bunch of whiny be-otches.

What's worse, I know that every stinking one of you gomers uses the pink line method for every VFR flight since 2003. Hypocrites.
 
docmirror said:
What's worse, I know that every stinking one of you gomers uses the pink line method for every VFR flight since 2003. Hypocrites.
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I don't think he made the wrong call. If you're not comfortable - don't fly.

The plane I rent doesn't have a GPS. But regardless, it's not about just following a magenta line - being a hypocrite would be scrubbing flights if we didn't have GPS capability, then coming on here and bitching about someone doing the same thing. That's not what's happening here.
 
kayoh190 said:
I don't think he made the wrong call. If you're not comfortable - don't fly.

The plane I rent doesn't have a GPS. But regardless, it's not about just following a magenta line - being a hypocrite would be scrubbing flights if we didn't have GPS capability, then coming on here and bitching about someone doing the same thing. That's not what's happening here.
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Have to agree with docmirror and with you. Maybe "hypocrite" is the wrong word. Liars perhaps?

:nono:

I'm going to go with "liars".
 
bbridges51 said:
Control has nothing to do with it. It's only a distraction IF IT DOESN'T WORK. I was flying to an unfamiliar airport and without FF's little airplane, i won't have situational awareness. i'm not feeling the love guys. All i want is for FF to work.
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Please don't take the comments the wrong way (and I'm not going to go through all 63 posts to see how it got tossed around).

A tablet-based EFB without a GPS and a little airplane to show where you are is still a sectional chart, and an significantly enhanced one at that. If, coming back to flying, you do not feel comfortable with the basic skill of navigating with a sectional chart and comparing the chart with the ground, you definitely made the right call of not going. But, you should be speaking with your CFI about it and ensuring that it is part of your re-training regimen. I hope you can see that.

The negative reaction to your reliance and willingness to go with the GPS assist but not without it is because the dangers of over-reliance on electronics, especially the taking of risks based on the expectation that the electronics will rescue you, is a current "hot topic" in all areas of aviation, including the airlines. Google "children of the magenta" and yo can find some interesting materials and videos on the subject.

Why it's not working? Don't know what other advice you were given, but a call to the tech support folks at FF is the first thing I would do.
 
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docmirror said:
Jeez. I love it when a guy is ridiculed for doing something strictly for the reason of safety.

What a bunch of whiny be-otches.

What's worse, I know that every stinking one of you gomers uses the pink line method for every VFR flight since 2003. Hypocrites.
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Assumption. I do not have an installed GPS and the iPad remains in the back seat, not even turned on. I write high-end software for a living and will never trust consumer gadgets with my life!

I've done Colorado to SoCal in VFR with paper only, very recently in fact. Colorado to OSH, too. And everywhere in between. It's no big deal. If GPS is critical for a VFR flight something is seriously wrong. Now for the caveat....Living out west, with huge numbers of MOAs, As and Rs, a GPS is useful to stay out of the way of F16s but guess what? Geographic landmarks work really well, so do VORs.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why it's not working? Don't know what other advice you were given, but a call to the tech support folks at FF is the first thing I would do.
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After some research, i found that when i updated to IOS 8.02, Location Services on my iPad was turned off. It had been on when i took my wife on a SF Bay Tour a few weeks ago, so the update must have clicked the location services off. i've been in contact with FF tech support today and he'll recommend a fix to the programmers.

At least i know why i couldn't connect.

Repairing my ego from today's replies will take a bit longer.
 
Ok, now that puts it in a little different light. If you explained it like that before, I believe the comments would have been a lot different.
I think.

bbridges51 said:
Well, this has been a fun day.

As i've shared here and elsewhere, i know, and i feel, that I'm a low time pilot since my return. i'm fully cognoscente of the skill set i need to build to be a great pilot and i know i've work to do to get there. About half my time since my BFR has been on my landings, which i'd like to perfect before i move onto other things like using the Garmin 430 as primary navigation, or playing with the VORs. Given that i'd read that VORs will be phased out in the future, i'm not sure how useful that skill will be.

however, my plan has been to slowly build my skills by going beyond my comfort level and today's flight would have been of help. Could i have programmed the Garmin 430 to be the primary? probably. But i didn't want to. I know my comfort level and i know what i need to learn in the future.

Still, many of you believe i shouldn't be flying, that i'm a danger to myself, or that my CFI was crazy to sign off.

i know i'll continue learning and that i'll take up a CFI when i need the comfort of another pilot when practicing a new skill, as i did last week when i brought along a CFI on a very windy day.

Some of you have tried to be helpful and i thank you for that.
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bbridges51 said:
Repairing my ego from today's replies will take a bit longer.
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It's just the nature of being in an anonymous group setting on the internet. You've gotta roll with the punches. :)

That said, if you can filter the message from the vitriol, there's value in what's been said.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why it's not working? Don't know what other advice you were given, but a call to the tech support folks at FF is the first thing I would do.
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bbridges51 said:
After some research, i found that when i updated to IOS 8.02, Location Services on my iPad was turned off. It had been on when i took my wife on a SF Bay Tour a few weeks ago, so the update must have clicked the location services off. i've been in contact with FF tech support today and he'll recommend a fix to the programmers.

At least i know why i couldn't connect.

Repairing my ego from today's replies will take a bit longer.
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What's the point of a thread if ya'll don't read the posts... As I stated back in post #18, this has been the norm since IOS6. Due to location tracking security concerns, it is now standard procedure that you need to specifically allow apps to access your location. It's laid out step-by-step all over In many ForeFlight sources.
 
JOhnH said:
Ok, now that puts it in a little different light. If you explained it like that before, I believe the comments would have been a lot different.
I think.
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Well, this didn't start off as a "Brian is a lousy pilot" post. it had been about my problem with ForeFlight this morning.
 
bbridges51 said:
Again, thanks for the love. Perhaps you're all having a bad day too.
I believe i've found the problem. Location Services on the iPad needs to be on and FF needs to access them for some reason while connected to the DUAL GPS. Why? who knows? In any case, when i updated to IOS 8, Apple changed Location Services so that they were turned off. Once i turned them back on, FF connected to the GPS.

However, i'm surprised both that more people haven't reported the problem, and in the criticism on this board.
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The criticism is coming from concern for your well being, not from internet pricks being mean to you. I don't care how long you haven't flown nor does it matter how conservative you are as a pilot. You should be comfortable navigating VFR without any electrons flowing in your cockpit. If you are not willing to fly because your tablet will not put a pretty little airplane on the screen then you need to revisit your base skill set. It will keep you safe and could very well keep you alive one day. No one is being mean.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, this has been a fun day.

As i've shared here and elsewhere, i know, and i feel, that I'm a low time pilot since my return. i'm fully cognoscente of the skill set i need to build to be a great pilot and i know i've work to do to get there. About half my time since my BFR has been on my landings, which i'd like to perfect before i move onto other things like using the Garmin 430 as primary navigation, or playing with the VORs. Given that i'd read that VORs will be phased out in the future, i'm not sure how useful that skill will be.

however, my plan has been to slowly build my skills by going beyond my comfort level and today's flight would have been of help. Could i have programmed the Garmin 430 to be the primary? probably. But i didn't want to. I know my comfort level and i know what i need to learn in the future.
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No, you don't, and that's the problem. But you're not going to learn until you understand that you need to learn, and clearly, you're not willing to accept the advice of folks who've been flying longer than you were out of flying, and that is regrettable. I just hope you don't reap the folly of your lack of understanding.

bbridges51 said:
Repairing my ego from today's replies will take a bit longer.
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If your ego is so fragile that you cannot accept advice on how to become a safe and competent pilot from people with decades and thousands of hours of flying experience including instructing, examining, and flight safety, then your problems are more deeply rooted than I thought. In any event, your problems are not going to get fixed until you put your ego in your pocket and accept the fact that there are skills you must have but don't.

Adios.
 
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HighFlyingA380 said:
What's the point of a thread if ya'll don't read the posts... As I stated back in post #18, this has been the norm since IOS6. Due to location tracking security concerns, it is now standard procedure that you need to specifically allow apps to access your location. It's laid out step-by-step all over In many ForeFlight sources.
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The difference is that the iOS 8 upgrade will turn location services off, even if you had them on before the upgrade. That's never happened to me before.

Foreflight eventually prompted me to turn them back on, but it took a few days. I hadn't noticed since I haven't been flying since the upgrade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi Brian. At least your post accomplished letting others know about the FF issue with the iOS 8 upgrade :).
 
somorris said:
Hi Brian. At least your post accomplished letting others know about the FF issue with the iOS 8 upgrade :).
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Yes. it also reminded me of what what we know in the teaching profession. It's possible to be a great mathematician, but a lousy math teacher. Criticizing my path to become a good pilot, or that i even understand what i need to learn, shows me that even great pilots can be jerks.

i can only assume that some of them are using a slide-ruler, instead of a calculator, to balance their checkbooks. It worked in the good old days, didn't it?
 
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bobmrg said:
I find this thread hard to believe. Those of us who learned to fly in what you refer to as the stone age managed to navigate to strange airports, sometimes at night :hairraise:, enter the pattern and land. Ever use a Superhomer or a comm radio with four crystals?

This industry is going to the dogs if everyone thinks like you do.

Bob Gardner
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A classic case of history being written by the survivors.

Until you or someone else works out the statistics on how many people back in the "good old days" got lost and had to land at the first place of opportunity or ask for help before they ran out of gas versus the pilots of today using perfectly legitimate GPS tools, no one can reasonably claim that pilots using older navigation tools were in any way superior in their training.
 
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