Lost Medical situation, Flying with another pilot

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Private pilot A has temporarily lost his medical and is awaiting the FAA's approval of paperwork and the reinstatement of his medical. He owns an airplane and is proficient and passenger-current. The airplane is your average single engine non-complex non-high-performance machine. It is NOT light-sport.

Pilot B is a passenger-current private pilot with a valid medical.

What are the legal and insurance implications if Pilot A flies his airplane start to finish, from the left seat, with Pilot B riding in the right seat? This assumes Pilot B has taken on the role of acting PIC for the flight, since someone in that cockpit needs a medical to be PIC.

Does Pilot A log PIC time or any time at all?
Does Pilot B, the "babysitter," log anything?
Is this legal? Smart?
If Pilot A dings up his own plane while being the sole manipulator of the controls, will Pilot B be held responsible by the FAA/insurance because he was the designated PIC?

If an airplane owner has temporarily lost their medical, should they just restrict their "copilot" to someone who is a CFI or can it be any qualified private pilot?
 
Insurance:

Pilot B needs to be acceptable to the insurance company as PIC. He's acting as PIC.

Pilot A: Logs PIC for the entire flight
Pilot B: Logs nothing
Legal: Yes
 
JeffDG said:
Insurance:

Pilot B needs to be acceptable to the insurance company as PIC. He's acting as PIC.

Pilot A: Logs PIC for the entire flight
Pilot B: Logs nothing
Legal: Yes
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All correct. I'd add that Pilot B could be covered by an OPW (Open Pilot Warranty), added to the policy as a named pilot, or added as a named insured. Coverage via the OPW or as a named pilot is pretty much the same thing, the OPW just defines who would be covered without being named. In either of those cases the owner's interests are covered and any liability of either pilot would be defended by the insurer to the policy limits. Unfortunately though once any claims are settled the underwriter can go after pilot B for the entire cost of the settlement or judgment unless pilot B also has a waiver of subrogation from the underwriter. If pilot B is added to the policy as a named insured the underwriter cannot recover anything from him but the policy limits are shared by the two individuals involved,
 
What Tim said.
For your friends piece of mind (and finances) get him on your insurance. If something was to happen (we humans do make mistakes at times), your insurance company would go after him since basically you are a passenger and he is responsible for the aircraft in their minds (and the faa)
 
To answer question "Smart?", it depends on the people involved. Is Pilot B comfortable being responsible for whatever Pilot A does? Is Pilot A comfortable with Pilot B having the authority to overrule Pilot A and take control at any time Pilot B wants? Does Pilot B have the knowledge and skill to evaluate Pilot A's performance, determine when it is necessary to take control, and safely take control and fly the plane from the right seat? (Note that most non-CFI's don't have that knowledge and skill.) You'll need to sit down with B, discuss these issues, and come to agreement on them before you agree to engage in such a deal.

As for the FAA and insurer, if Pilot B is the designated PIC, Pilot B eats it all if there's an accident or violation -- Pilot A is effectively just a passenger for all but logging purposes.
 
This is about as smart as the guy who posted tha the had lost his medical (it was pulled) and he flew anyway ("just one trip) and bent the prop. Then he reported it to the FAA. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34415

Pilot A has temporarily lost his medical. THAT MEANS PILOT A HAS NO MEDICAL. There is no distinction between temporarily lost the medical and NOT having a medical. They are the same thing.

The smell test is what the FAA uses after the wreck. Everything posted here has been correct. It's just stupid as box o rocks to do this, unless the right seater is Bill Gates.

Really! How dumb are we collectively? (!!!!!)
 
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bbchien said:
This is about as smart as the guy who posted tha the had lost his medical (it was pulled) and he flew anyway ("just one trip) and bent the prop. Then he reported it to the FAA. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34415

Pilot A has temporarily lost his medical. THAT MEANS PILOT A HAS NO MEDICAL. There is no distinction between temporarily lost the medical and NOT having a medical. They are the same thing.

The smell test is what the FAA uses after the wreck. Everything posted here has been correct. It's just stupid as box o rocks to do this, unless the right seater is Bill Gates.

Really! How dumb are we collectively? (!!!!!)
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OK - would having a CFI in the right seat make it better? Explain your answer.

Would having a paid commercial pilot in the right seat make it better? Explain your answer.
 
TMetzinger said:
OK - would having a CFI in the right seat make it better? Explain your answer.

Would having a paid commercial pilot in the right seat make it better? Explain your answer.
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I sure hope a CFI in the right seat with a non-pilot in the left is "acceptable," otherwise I'm gonna go through a whole lotta batteries on the handheld...

"Turn left! Make that round thing in front of you go to the left..now push on the pedal...not that one!..."
 
I have done this before, and would do it again given the right person and insurance. I also hope someone will step up and help me when I get in the same situation.

Its about pilot camaraderie, and transcends all legal concerns.
 
I'm scratching my head over Bruce's post. Unless the aircraft's flight manual has a limitation requiring the PIC to occupy the left seat, or two pilots are required, or there are no flight controls in the right seat, there's nothing illegal under the FAR's about having the PIC occupy the right seat while someone else (pilot or otherwise) occupies the left seat. Of course, your insurance company may have issues with that (I've heard of policies requiring any non-CFI PIC to occupy the left seat), and there are safety issues which I discussed above, but unless I missed something in the original post, no FAR's are being broken.
 
I think Bruce is referring to how the NTSB report after the accident will be worded regarding who was flyin gthe plane versus who was PIC.

Or my question if I was the right seat PIC how will I be penalized if he has an accident?
 
RMCN172RG said:
Or my question if I was the right seat PIC how will I be penalized if he has an accident?
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If you're the right seat PIC, and an accident occurs, he doesn't have an accident -- you have an accident.

[edit] Note the identical time stamps as Greg and I had the same thought simultaneously.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Or my question if I was the right seat PIC how will I be penalized if he has an accident?
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My answer is the same as Greg's and Ron's but maybe to clarify, Pilot A is just as much a passenger as a non-pilot friend you might let fly the plane, or your kid. :devil:

Also, the seat you are occupying has no bearing on whether you are the PIC or not. A lot of people seem to think it's automatically the person sitting in the left unless it is a CFI but that is not the case.
 
Trapper John said:
What conclusion gets drawn when 2 bodies are removed from the wreckage?
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The FAA evaluates all the facts and draws conclusions based on their investigation. One thing that would be considered if there's a flight plan filed is whose name is listed as PIC. If there's a liability question, the jury gets the facts presented and draws their own conclusion.:eek:
 
The PVT or Comm pilot (non CFI) in the right seat, who does not have much experience controlling an aircraft from the right seat, let alone telling whether the left seat pilot is falling behind the game (likely not, given this scenario), is now the legal PIC and is in fact responsible for all the goings on.

How likely is that person to really be exercising PIC authority/skill? HARDLY.
Let's say the A/C is a Mooney and the right seater has 2 hours in type. This is a bad recipe for a PIC.

In this example, it really doesn't matter if the right seater is a CFI or not, other than that a non CFI will have more nearly ZERO experience controlling an AC from the right seat. What matters more is how much time the person in the RIGHT SEAT has in type, potentially flying it from the RIGHT SEAT.

I submit a CFI is more likely (though not necessarily) to have fewer handicaps to being real, legal PIC and being able to act capably as legal PIC.

What I really don't get is the attitude, "oh I lost my certificate, but I'll fly anyway....". Yes, if the non CFI rightseater (current medical, rated in category, class and type if necessary) logs nothing the left seater can log sole manipulator if he is rated. But the likelihood that the guy in the right seat, the LEGAL PIC is actually going to be capable of competently saying "nay" to the left seater, who presumably own the a/c and has decided to fly without a CFI (because that costs money!) or a medical, well.....is dubious. "I'll just use my buddy Joe!"

Nothing wrong with it if Joe has plenty of right seat time in type. But it's a good bet he does not.
 
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Bruce provides an accurate assessment of the safety issues associated with this practice. As I've said before, what is legal ain't necessarily smart or safe, so think carefully and choose wisely before doing this.
 
Well, the OP said the aircraft was neither complex nor high performance, so we're not talking about a Mooney. Also, Pilot A believes his medical will be reinstated, and that it's just a matter of waiting for the paperwork to go through. In other words, Pilot A is fully capable of acting as a PIC, he just can't do it legally until he gets the right piece of paper. So while Pilot B would be undertaking some risk in acting as PIC, it doesn't sound excessive to me.

But the general point that a safety pilot should be competent to fly the actual aircraft in question, not just meet the minimum FAA requirements, is a good one, of course.
 
chucky said:
Well, the OP said the aircraft was neither complex nor high performance, so we're not talking about a Mooney. Also, Pilot A believes his medical will be reinstated, and that it's just a matter of waiting for the paperwork to go through. In other words, Pilot A is fully capable of acting as a PIC, he just can't do it legally until he gets the right piece of paper. So while Pilot B would be undertaking some risk in acting as PIC, it doesn't sound excessive to me.
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That's an individual judgement, not a general rule.
But the general point that a safety pilot should be competent to fly the actual aircraft in question, not just meet the minimum FAA requirements, is a good one, of course.
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As I said above, there's more to being PIC in the right seat with someone else flying from the left seat than just "be[ing] competent to fly the actual aircraft in question," so if you're going to be the PIC for this event, think carefully about all the issues Bruce and I mentioned before agreeing.
 
bbchien said:
The PVT or Comm pilot (non CFI) in the right seat, who does not have much experience controlling an aircraft from the right seat, let alone telling whether the left seat pilot is falling behind the game (likely not, given this scenario), is now the legal PIC and is in fact responsible for all the goings on.
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Given the original post, that assumes facts not in evidence.
Let's say the A/C is a Mooney and the right seater has 2 hours in type. This is a bad recipe for a PIC.
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No question about that. Not to mention the insurance aspects of it.

I submit a CFI is more likely (though not necessarily) to have fewer handicaps to being real, legal PIC and being able to act capably as legal PIC.
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Key words are "more likely".

What I really don't get is the attitude, "oh I lost my certificate, but I'll fly anyway....".
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I didn't get that from the post. What I got was a guy trying to figure out how he could still legally fly.

Yes, if the non CFI rightseater (current medical, rated in category, class and type if necessary) logs nothing the left seater can log sole manipulator if he is rated.
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But the non CFI right seater CANNOT log ANYTHING regardless of what the left seater logs. At least not technically.

But the likelihood that the guy in the right seat, the LEGAL PIC is actually going to be capable of competently saying "nay" to the left seater, who presumably own the a/c and has decided to fly without a CFI (because that costs money!) or a medical, well.....is dubious. "I'll just use my buddy Joe!"

Nothing wrong with it if Joe has plenty of right seat time in type. But it's a good bet he does not.
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Maybe, maybe not. I don't like blanket statements. ;)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Given the original post, that assumes facts not in evidence.
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The original post said the left seater had no medical. That means the right seater must be acting as PIC. One assumes you're talk about the right seater's supposed lack of experience, not his/her legal status.
 
Ron Levy said:
The original post said the left seater had no medical.
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Look at my post. Those aren't the facts that aren't in evidence.

That means the right seater must be acting as PIC. One assumes you're talk about the right seater's supposed lack of experience, not his/her legal status.
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That is exactly how my post in response to Bruce read.
 
I flew with a very dear friend of mine for the last 5 years of his life, as the PIC from the right seat. Bubba lost his medical due to prostate cancer, which finally claimed his life. We never flew when he felt bad so I was always comfortable with his performance as the flying pilot. I made sure I was proficent from the right seat, we had agreed to swap legs when we flew together. On one flight his 172 blew a brand new oil cooler hose on takeoff, and I am sure he handled the emergency better than I would have. I would not do this for just anyone but we had flown together for so many hours that we were very comfortable with each other. I miss my pal Bubba. Oh and the aircraft was a Cessna 172. Good luck with your decision.
 
Fair enough, Greg. :)

Usually, though, the ones who have the experience from the right seat have spent hours and hours in aircraft and have happened to acquire the ratings along the way....
 
Why couldn't Pilot A fly from the right seat elimintating the not profiecent from the right seat deal.
 
Bill G said:
Why couldn't Pilot A fly from the right seat elimintating the not profiecent from the right seat deal.
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Does he have experience doing so? If not, how have you removed the risk factor? Now, if he's given instruction (and he can still receive instruction, even without a valid medical), then he can gain that proficiency and all is good.
 
I'm opening this thread again as I have questions along the same line, but different.

I have self-grounded, in that I won't fly without another pilot able to take control (because of a medical diagnosis). The FAA is not officially involved in the decision--I still have a current medical. Hubby and I plan to fly from Connecticut to California in the near future with me doing all the VFR flying in our jointly owned aircraft. We did the same thing recently when flying to Oklahoma and back. As we have done now for the past 10 years. Hubby is IFR and commercially rated. He is nearing completion of CFI training and is far more comfortable flying right-seat than left-seat at this time. He already has his AGI.

Should I log PIC time?
Should he?
Am I acting as PIC?
Is he?
Is this unsafe?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Should I log PIC time?

Only for the time you are sole manipulator of the controls.

Should he?

Only for the time he is sole manipulator of the controls.

Am I acting as PIC?

Only if you want to

Is he?

Only if he wants to (but one of you must be)

Is this unsafe?

No, its not like you two have never flown together or don't know how to get along. Just decide beforehand who is going to be in charge (PIC) and enjoy your flight.
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.....
 
Peggy, if you've self-grounded, then you've self-grounded and really shouldn't act as PIC. The question is whether you know that you don't meet the standards for your current medical at the time of the flight (and I get the impression that you don't meet the standards). That means not flying in situations your husband (as the acting PIC) isn't comfortable with and capable of handling (given his qualifications I don't think this changes anything at all).

You can still log all the time you manipulate the controls as PIC. Husband can log the time he's flying the plane as PIC too. If you put on a hood and make him your PIC safety pilot you can both log PIC. Once he gets his CFI he can give you instructional flights and you both log PIC but this could get grey in a hurry if he's not really teaching you.

As far as safety goes - has your husband's CFI "soloed" him in the right seat and turned him loose to practice? If so, I don't see any problem with him flying from the right seat in VMC. IMC is another matter unless he's also gotten the experience with a CFI in the left.

Hope this is helpful,
 
I had a chat with a local AME last night, who said he really thought if you lost your medical that you shouldn't be flying anyway. His opinion was that it's hard enough to loose a medical that to do so you have to be in pretty bad shape. Didn't sound right to me, but that's not my end of things, and he's a seriously bright guy.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Should I log PIC time?
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I see no reason not to whenever you are flying the plane. Having a valid medical (whether you "self ground" for anything that would disqualify you at an exam or fail an exam, your medical becomes invalid) has no direct bearing whatsoever on when you can log PIC time. And IMO, there's a good reason to log the time you're entitled to. For one thing, it looks better to an insurer if you don't show a long period of inactivity, and you never know when extra hours in the logbook might come in handy. If you don't log your sole manipulator time nobody else can legally either as long as you're rated in category and class.

Should he?
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Not if you are the one flying the airplane (and this includes when you set up and operate the autopilot to handle the controls). If hubby was an actual CFI you could both legally log PIC time when you fly the airplane although the FAA would frown on that unless he was actually teaching you something (or at least attempting to). Even if you were in IMC and only the Hubby was IR, you, not he would be entitled to log the PIC time when you were handling the controls. Of course in that case he'd be acting PIC just like when your medical is invalid.
Am I acting as PIC?
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Not legally if you are "self grounded" for a legitimate reason. BTW, this implies that he must be fully qualified to act as PIC for the conditions of the flight in terms of currency and endorsements. For instance if you were TW endorsed and he wasn't, neither of you could act as PIC in a TW airplane while your medical was invalid.
Is he?
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It should be obvious by now that he must be the acting PIC for the flight to be legal (again this is assuming your assessment of your medical condition is correct and the condition is sufficient to "ground" you.

An example where this wouldn't necessarily be true would be a splinted broken pinkie. You might feel that that this was cause for grounding (and should probably listen to your own opinion) but as long as the injury didn't prevent you from performing the duties required when acting as PIC (including flying the plane) and you weren't taking any "automatic grounding" meds you'd be legal albeit uncomfortable acting as PIC.
Is this unsafe?
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I see no safety issues as long as he is comfortable flying from the right seat and your medical condition isn't something that could become critical in the air. OTOH, if you had something like a kidney stone or appendicitis where severe discomfort and/or serious medical consequences could become a significant distraction, safety could be degraded if that occurred in that your husband would feel serious pressure to get you on the ground and into medical care ASAP. In such a situation the added stress could precipitate some errors on his part that might compromise safety.
 
gismo said:
I see no safety issues as long as he is comfortable flying from the right seat and your medical condition isn't something that could become critical in the air. OTOH, if you had something like a kidney stone or appendicitis where severe discomfort and/or serious medical consequences could become a significant distraction, safety could be degraded if that occurred in that your husband would feel serious pressure to get you on the ground and into medical care ASAP. In such a situation the added stress could precipitate some errors on his part that might compromise safety.
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After the first three or four kidney stones, the spouse pretty much gets over it. "Drive yourself to the hospital, it's late, I'm going to bed." :goofy:

Seriously, I agree. Enjoy the trip (as best you can). Log the hours when you are driving.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
After the first three or four kidney stones, the spouse pretty much gets over it. "Drive yourself to the hospital, it's late, I'm going to bed." :goofy:.
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Yeah, but in my case I learned that the hospital can't/won't do anything except prescribe a potent painkiller and I saved the one's I got the first time so there's not much point in anyone driving to the hospital if it happens again.
 
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