lost log books

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stapler101

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stapler101
I am considering buying a plane that has no log books (stolen?).
The plane is out of annual.
We do not know who did the last annual.
What would be required to get the plane annualed?
What is your opinion on buying a plane with no log books?
 
Here are my totally inexperienced thoughts:

1) The price should be DRAMATICALLY reduced.

2) Expect that when you go to sell the price it will garner wil be much lower as well.

3) Personally I would not touch the plane without a serious prebuy that is paramount to an annual and then some. I'd ask the A&P to check for every SB and AD on record. But thats just me I could not afford a big mistake, others expecially those with more ownership and Mx experience may feel differently.

4) I suspect if you are planning on keeping the plane for a looonng time and are not worried about resale value and can get a great price and a good A&P gives you some confidence you could be very happy in the end.
 
What's the story behind the plane? Where has it been? How much can you verify without the logs? Who has owned it before? U. S. History? Drug hauler?

Can you talk to prior owners? Have you ordered the history package from OKC? Where are the logs? Why would anybody steal airplane logbooks other than to gain some economic leverage relative to the airplane? How can you comply with time/life limited inspections? It could be a heck of a deal or you could be setting yourself up for a skinning. I suspect that history shows more buyers of such airplanes getting killed (financially) than making a killing from buying a cheap airplane.
 
Do a little research on the N number and you will probably find damage that someone tried to hide. That has been my experience anyway.

Getting an annual is easy. They will assume that nothing is complied with and it will cost a small(ish) fortune.
 
This would require much, much more than a traditional annual. Obviously you'd need an inspection of the entire airframe and engine. Then the real fun starts:

- AD compliance. You have to prove compliance with all applicable AD's. That will mean re-doing most of them. And good luck if one of the parts that needs inspecting is inside the engine. You'd be looking at an engine tear-down.

- Parts & procedures compliance. You don't have a yellow tag on anything. How do you prove that anything in the panel is an approved part? Or any other apparent add-ons for that matter. Does it appear the aircraft interior has been refurbished? Since you don't have the burn certificate on the materials, you might have to re-do that work. Has the aircraft ever been repainted? You might have to re-balance all the control surfaces.

- Weight and Balance. You don't have one, but will need one. Going to have to weight that puppy.

- Given the aircraft has no time-in-service history, there's not much you know about the engine, engine accessories, or prop. I don't know if you'd be required to, but if it were my project I'd send them all off for an overhaul to establish safe condition.
 
If it is a Cessna 150 not to much of a problem that money ( lots of $$$) won't fix as long as it still has a data tag. If it is a complex aircraft you may not be able to get it airworthy for less than you could find another with records cheaper.
 
This often happens in the case of bank repossessions or DEA seizures.
 
the plane, a 77 182, belongs to a retired airline pilot. he has alzheimers and cant find the logswe dont know who did last annualthere are records from 2007
 
When you say "there are records from 2007," do you mean there are records covering the last three years, or that's when the old records end? Big difference between the two.
 
You can "rebuild" a lot (but certainly not all) of the records by requesting what the FAA has on file for that plane.

What I see as the biggest negative to having no logbooks is AD compliance. You have to be able to prove that the AD's have been complied with. If not, you have to do them again. Depending on the AD, that can get quite expensive.
 
Forget it. There are zillions of planes without issues begging for buyers. Let it become someone else's problem. Unless you cut a mega-discount, plus a full-cavity-search annual-in-lieu-of prebuy, I wouldn't bother. The airline pilot thing does nothing for me. Honestly, without proof of AD compliance, as another poster mentioned any A&P/IA worth his cert will insist on compliance, and on a 77 182 that will cost some coin.

Walk away. Not worth the hassle.
 
This probably doesn't have anything to do with the plane that you are looking at, but is just a story. In 1970 did some work on an Ercoupe for a guy. I was going into the Navy, and the guy wouldn't pay me for the work, but I had the log books. I left them at my parents house when I left for boot camp. After four years, and a couple months, in the Navy, I went to college in Florida, then a couple of years later transferred to Iowa State University, which is home. One day, out of the blue, a guy called me up and told me that he had bought that Ercoupe, and asked me if I had the log books. I told him that I did, and that I still had the unpaid bill for the work. The next day he paid the bill, and I gave him the log books.
 
Buying an aircraft with no maintenance history, can be a big deal, such as any aircraft with time life items like the wing beam on a Grumman, you can't prove it is not over age, thus the aircraft is worth parts.

any of the Cessna / Piper spam cans it is pretty easy to start new logs and comply with the ADs

you first get the CD from the FAA at OKC to see any major 337s and life history of the aircraft. and copy the 337s. Then you call FSDO in the region of the owner, and ask for the activity sheets on the IAs that may have completed the last annual, we usually record the aircraft TT and Engine TT as part of our records.

The aircraft must be considered out of annual, simply because you have no record so the annual is due.

Remember a couple things, the inspector (IA) must verify the ADs anyway at annual, they shouldn't charge extra to do this during annual, but they may add a couple hours to the bill for manufacturing the new logs, and doing the extra entries, But most of the leg work can be done buy the owner.

you may even get lucky, and the A&P-IA might be holding the old logs. Ask around the airport see if you can find who did the last annual.

To add, check and see if the aircraft had a subscription with "ADlog" if so the AD problem is solved.
 
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flyersfan31 said:
Forget it. There are zillions of planes without issues begging for buyers. Let it become someone else's problem. Unless you cut a mega-discount, plus a full-cavity-search annual-in-lieu-of prebuy, I wouldn't bother. The airline pilot thing does nothing for me. Honestly, without proof of AD compliance, as another poster mentioned any A&P/IA worth his cert will insist on compliance, and on a 77 182 that will cost some coin.

Walk away. Not worth the hassle.
Click to expand...

Are you insinuating that you wouldn't do AD compliance at every annual anyway?
 
Maxmosbey said:
This probably doesn't have anything to do with the plane that you are looking at, but is just a story. In 1970 did some work on an Ercoupe for a guy. I was going into the Navy, and the guy wouldn't pay me for the work, but I had the log books. I left them at my parents house when I left for boot camp. After four years, and a couple months, in the Navy, I went to college in Florida, then a couple of years later transferred to Iowa State University, which is home. One day, out of the blue, a guy called me up and told me that he had bought that Ercoupe, and asked me if I had the log books. I told him that I did, and that I still had the unpaid bill for the work. The next day he paid the bill, and I gave him the log books.
Click to expand...

Unless you had a work order stating you could hold the logs in lew of payment, what you did was illegal, (Smart,, but Illegal)
 
Tom-D said:

Are you insinuating that you wouldn't do AD compliance at every annual anyway?
Click to expand...

Uh, no. I think you misunderstood. In a plane with no logs, well, just figuring out whether the work has been done will require crawling around the airplane, and maybe replacing stuff that's already been replaced. You don't have a log to review to confirm compliance

For things like inspection ADs, that work will have to be done, even if it had been in the past because there is no proof. With this airplane you'll be reinventing a lot of wheels.

That may be ok for a bottom-feeder buyer, or someone who is an A&P, but for Joe Pilot it's a pain in the azz not worth pursuing with so many other airplanes of known provenance on the market.
 
I don't think 182's are particularly problem-prone insofar as AD's are concerned. It's fairly easy to obtain a list from the maintenance softrware vendors to determine what you're working with. Let's say it takes 3 days (24 hours) to check out the list. That's less than $2k in a big-town shop, much less in a smaller market. I wouldn't write this one off if the discount is significant.

(
flyersfan31 said:
Uh, no. I think you misunderstood. In a plane with no logs, well, just figuring out whether the work has been done will require crawling around the airplane, and maybe replacing stuff that's already been replaced. You don't have a log to review to confirm compliance

For things like inspection ADs, that work will have to be done, even if it had been in the past because there is no proof. With this airplane you'll be reinventing a lot of wheels.

That may be ok for a bottom-feeder buyer, or someone who is an A&P, but for Joe Pilot it's a pain in the azz not worth pursuing with so many other airplanes of known provenance on the market.
Click to expand...
 
50% off the going price of one with logs in similar condition (assumed) is a good starting point...
Airframe AD's on a Lane are not that extensive and 2 days of mechanic time will be sufficient to inspect....
The engine is best dealt with by sending to a shop for a tear down with new bearings and rings... Probably $12K if no defects found and cylinders are good...
Prop and governor go out for an overhaul... Guessing $5K and maybe less than that...
The engine instruments (if original) might pass by visual inspection - or may have to go out for certification and yellow tags... You will need to discuss that with the FSDO inspector and see what he wants...
Speedo, altimeter, gyros, etc. are sent out for inspection and yellow tags..
Radios can be retagged by the instrument shop...
Simply replace the compass with new...
Weight and balance on certified scales...
I'm guessing $35K if nothing major is found - and you have a fresh engine/prop/governor, overhauled instruments and radios...

denny-o
 
If the logbook issue can be overcome, I'd want to make sure that I had a valid contract. Hopefully, someone has power of attorney to represent the current owner since he has Alzheimers...
 
Tom-D said:
Unless you had a work order stating you could hold the logs in lew of payment, what you did was illegal, (Smart,, but Illegal)
Click to expand...

The log books were provided to the mechanic because they were necessary to do the work agreed to, so his possession of the log books was legal (ie not stolen). It is not stated that the owner demanded the return of the logs, or even asked nicely for them. The mechanic is under no obligation to seek out the owner to return the logs that he is in rightful possession of. I suspect the owner didn't ask because he was embarrassed or wanted to avoid a confrontation. There was nothing illegal done unless the mechanic refused to return the logs until the bill was paid. There is no indication that he refused.
 
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Steve Foley said:
The log books were provided to the mechanic because they were necessary to do the work agreed to, so his possession of the log books was legal. It is not stated that the owner demanded the return of the logs, or even asked nicely for them. The mechanic is under no obligation to seek out the owner to return the logs that he is in rightful possession of. I suspect the owner didn't ask because he was embarrassed or wanted to avoid a confrontation. There was nothing illegal done unless the mechanic refused to return the logs until the bill was paid. There is no indication that he refused.
Click to expand...

The owner went through a divorce, the wife got the plane, and the plane sat at a sod strip until the guy who contacted me bought it. I don't think that hanging on to the log books is illegal, but if push came to shove, it would be up to small claims court. I'm pretty sure that no one has gone to jail for felony log book holding. I wasn't all that smart either. As I remember it, the guy was long gone by the time I was done with the work, so I just stuck them in a desk drawer and went off to the Navy, and didn't even think about them again. Anyway it was a long time ago, and I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over my criminal past. :smile:
 
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One more time -- what did you mean by "there are records from 2007"? The answer to that question makes a huge difference.
 
In the past with "lost" log books there has normally been someone holding them for ransom. With some research you might find the right person and get the books with some cash.

It seems I'm stuck with an old Malibu that's been here for over 3 years. No logbooks, the shop responsible for the junk repairs is holding them ransom. My plans, unless they change are to junk the ship instead of repair it. I've always wanted a pedistal Malibu in front of the Hangar.
 
stapler101 said:
the plane, a 77 182, belongs to a retired airline pilot. he has alzheimers and cant find the logswe dont know who did last annualthere are records from 2007
Click to expand...

Before I bought my Warrior, when I was really looking, I came across more than a few airplanes that had a history with an airline pilot. I'm starting to think airline pilots to used, inexpensive airplanes, are synonymous to little old ladies and used inexpensive cars.

I bought my airplane about a year before the market crashed, so I didn't get all that great of a deal. But everything worked and the mechanics said it was a good deal.

Just because everything works when you buy it, does not mean everything will work a month from now. The first year I had my Warrior, I put $7,000 into fixing "little things" that kept popping up. The most expensive "little thing" was an oil caning wing walk. Since I've owned it, a little over three years, I've probably put fifteen thousand into repairs and replacement, not counting it's annuals.

I guess what I am trying to tell you is that unless you are an A&E, there is no such thing as a cheap airplane.

The one thing about the personalities of airplanes is, they are on a personal vendetta to strip your bank account, then do everything they can dream up to put you as far in debt as they possibly can. They are sneaky little suckers and are not to be trusted. They don't love you, it's your money they are after.

John
 
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kmead said:
In the past with "lost" log books there has normally been someone holding them for ransom. With some research you might find the right person and get the books with some cash.
Click to expand...

The thing about it is that if you want to get the good deal, you have to buy the plane without log books. As soon as the log books show up, the price of the plane will probably go up too. I'm in agreement though, I'll bet the log books are not lost, just misplaced.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Uh, no. I think you misunderstood. In a plane with no logs, well, just figuring out whether the work has been done will require crawling around the airplane, and maybe replacing stuff that's already been replaced. You don't have a log to review to confirm compliance

For things like inspection ADs, that work will have to be done, even if it had been in the past because there is no proof. With this airplane you'll be reinventing a lot of wheels.

That may be ok for a bottom-feeder buyer, or someone who is an A&P, but for Joe Pilot it's a pain in the azz not worth pursuing with so many other airplanes of known provenance on the market.
Click to expand...

You seem to think we can depend upon the log to tell us if the work has been completed, This is a risky thing to do, I find many ADs that are not completed correctly. and many that do not have the proper sign offs in the logs.

The first Time I do an annual I check every AD and insure that it is entered properly.

So doing the annual properly on any aircraft that has no logs would be no different that doing the first annual on an aircraft that I have never seen before.

You make a proper inventory, make model & serial number of every component installed.
Run the AD list and find every AD that pertains to all the accessories airframe and engine.
Check that list against the Equipment list for that Aircraft. and the Type certificate. If you don't have the Equipment list Piper or Cessna can provide.
When you find that you have equipment that is installed that is not on the equipment list, you need to determine if a 337 is needed, if so the FAAs records may show the missing paper work, If not you must get a field approval or the STC for it.

If you find that you don't have the equipment that must be installed the same thing must be done.

Really, doing the annual on any aircraft that has no logs is no different than doing an Annual on any aircraft that you have never seen before.

That is, unless you trust the logs to be correct. I don't, because I have seen too many that were not.
 
Steve Foley said:
The log books were provided to the mechanic because they were necessary to do the work agreed to, so his possession of the log books was legal (ie not stolen). It is not stated that the owner demanded the return of the logs, or even asked nicely for them. The mechanic is under no obligation to seek out the owner to return the logs that he is in rightful possession of. I suspect the owner didn't ask because he was embarrassed or wanted to avoid a confrontation. There was nothing illegal done unless the mechanic refused to return the logs until the bill was paid. There is no indication that he refused.
Click to expand...

I agree there is no way you can get a judgment on the A&P after all this time.

When the A&P refuses to return the logs because he was not paid, you can use the courts to get the logs back, and then he can send the bill to collection that is all that can be done legally.

That is why you should read the work order that you sign when you leave your aircraft at the big FBO to have work done. The Fine print probably says they have the right to keep your aircraft and logs until paid.

I'm a freelanced A&P-IA working out of my hangar with owners that I trust, They know I deal in cash and will sign the Annual off when I am paid.
 
Tom-D said:
You seem to think we can depend upon the log to tell us if the work has been completed, This is a risky thing to do, I find many ADs that are not completed correctly. and many that do not have the proper sign offs in the logs.

The first Time I do an annual I check every AD and insure that it is entered properly.

So doing the annual properly on any aircraft that has no logs would be no different that doing the first annual on an aircraft that I have never seen before.
Click to expand...
So, if you're presented for the first time with a Lyc O-320 engine, you're going to take it apart to make sure the oil impeller has been properly replaced IAW the AD on that even if the logs show compliance? Ditto the AD on the piston pins?
 
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