Lost communication while being vectored

[2nd505th]

What do you do if you lose communication while being vectored to where you can begin an approach? In this scenario you do not have GPS and you did not need to file an alternate but you are in IMC. For example the LOC RWY 21 approach requires radar. Your last nav aid was the ALD VOR and you lost communication shortly after that.

 

[Larry in TN]

14 CFR 91.185 (c)(1)(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.185

 

[luvflyin]

What do you do if you lose communication while being vectored to where you can begin an approach? In this scenario you do not have GPS and you did not need to file an alternate but you are in IMC. For example the LOC RWY 21 approach requires radar. Your last nav aid was the ALD VOR and you lost communication shortly after that.

What airport?

 

[luvflyin]

14 CFR 91.185 (c)(1)(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.185

He said the Approach requires Radar. If it’s for procedure entry you could maybe get yourself established with the help of some other Navaids. If it’s required to identify the FAF or some other fix, it might be better to do some other Approach. 91.185 may leave you in never never land in this situation. AIM 6-4-1 a. will likely be what applies

 

[2nd505th]

Two more points come to mind what if you never received A vector and you know you need to be vectored For example the last person you talk to was tower and they said fly runway heading and then you lost your communication and you’re in IMC.

The second point is I don’t remember ever getting a vector clearance I get vectored but I don’t remember them vectoring me and then saying I’m cleared to some point. Maybe I misunderstanding but they usually just tell you to turn to a certain heading in altitude, not that you’re cleared to somewhere where you can begin the approach.

 

[luvflyin]

Two more points come to mind what if you never received A vector and you know you need to be vectored For example the last person you talk to was tower and they said fly runway heading and then you lost your communication and you’re in IMC.

The second point is I don’t remember ever getting a vector clearance I get vectored but I don’t remember them vectoring me and then saying I’m cleared to some point. Maybe I misunderstanding but they usually just tell you to turn to a certain heading in altitude, not that you’re cleared to somewhere where you can begin the approach.

It seldom happens that you would get “cleared ‘to” what was specified in the vector. The vector isn’t really a ‘clearance.’ Your clearance limit will usually remain the airport throughout all of this. FAR 91.185 (c) (1) (ii) reads”...fix, route or airway...” Being vectored to the Localizer would be ‘route’ in your scenario. What airport are you taking about?

 

[Larry in TN]

For example the last person you talk to was tower and they said fly runway heading and then you lost your communication and you’re in IMC.

Your IFR clearance had a first fix. When you realized that comm was lost you would proceed to that fix.

The second point is I don’t remember ever getting a vector clearance I get vectored but I don’t remember them vectoring me and then saying I’m cleared to some point.

They will say something like, "...vectors for" something such as "vectors for ILS 21". If you later lose comm, use the information you have to get to it. If you can't, get to what you can that is as close as possible to what they said.

 

[Velocity173]

HXD?

 

[IK04]

Enter autorotation...

 

[Possum]

I'm studying for the written as we speak and on SheppardAir prep the answer often contains "squawk 7600" .


7500 – Hijacking

7600 – Lost radio/communications

7700 – General Emergency (Engine Failure, Medical Emergencies, etc)

 

[dtuuri]

What do you do if you lose communication while being vectored to where you can begin an approach? In this scenario you do not have GPS and you did not need to file an alternate but you are in IMC. For example the LOC RWY 21 approach requires radar. Your last nav aid was the ALD VOR and you lost communication shortly after that.

Airports with RADAR REQUIRED approaches are (were?) s'posed to also have at least one navigable approach from the enroute environment. Use it.

 

[2nd505th]

14 CFR 91.185 (c)(1)(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.185

Airports with RADAR REQUIRED approaches are (were?) s'posed to also have at least one navigable approach from the enroute environment. Use it.

So for HXD, what would I use? In regard to going direct after losing comm - how can I go direct with VORs only?

 

[Velocity173]

VOR-A

 

[2nd505th]

VOR-A

Thought about that one and from thinking your answer it would seem my approach pick would have to encompass scenarios like lost comms plus what equipment I have, plus whatever else may fail for the approach selected.

 

[dtuuri]

Thought about that one and from thinking your answer it would seem my approach pick would have to encompass scenarios like lost comms plus what equipment I have, plus whatever else may fail for the approach selected.

Exactly. Flight planning should include loss of communications planning.

 

[luvflyin]

So for HXD, what would I use? In regard to going direct after losing comm - how can I go direct with VORs only?

You planned for and accepted vectors for an Approach that requires DME so you have that in addition to the VOR’s. With two VOR’s and DME you could ‘vector yourself’ so to speak, to get established on the Localizer at a suitable distance to complete the Approach. Could. Not should, could, I mean it’s possible. Whether you should attempt that course of action would depend on a lot of things. How far away we’re you when you got the vector, was it one that had you on a natural course to just continue on it and intercept? Your altitude at the time of going NORDO and the altitude you need to be at to complete the Approach are going to figure into this. Other than (c) (1) (ii), FAR 91.185 is pretty much out of the picture and AIM 6-4-1 a. will be running the show, going VFR if able notwithstanding.
Give us a starting point here. Where and at what altitude were you when the Radios crapped out on you? What was your vector? Had you been given a series of vectors? Are you situationally aware of just about exactly where you are? Let’s all play with it. There is no ‘pat’ answer here.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So for HXD, what would I use? In regard to going direct after losing comm - how can I go direct with VORs only?

Ah! You point out the fallacy of the "go to the clearance limit" requirement. Funny thing is, the requirement was written when there was no RNAV capability.

Thought about that one and from thinking your answer it would seem my approach pick would have to encompass scenarios like lost comms plus what equipment I have, plus whatever else may fail for the approach selected.

Let me ask this: Do you want a checkride answer or a real world one?

Real world: In my planning, I don't choose routes based on lost comm scenarios. We are no longer in an era where we are flying with a single stand-alone radio running on vacuum tubes. Think about what actually has to go wrong to have pilot-side lost comm with our modern and redundant equipment. All the most likely scenarios are emergencies. Heck you'd probably be using your iPad or phone to navigate at that point. And of course, since you are not communicating, even if your failure to communicate is because all the wiring to all of your radios just happened to come loose at exactly the same time, affecting nothing else, and you never encounter visual conditions, ATC doesn't know that. So they are going to treat it as an emergency.

Checkride: I can mouth the rules as well as anyone else, but even then, there is the very first paragraph of the AIM discussion of lost comm (my emphasis):

6-4-1. Two-way Radio Communications Failure
a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).​

 

[2nd505th]

You planned for and accepted vectors for an Approach that requires DME so you have that in addition to the VOR’s. With two VOR’s and DME you could ‘vector yourself’ so to speak, to get established on the Localizer at a suitable distance to complete the Approach. Could. Not should, could, I mean it’s possible. Whether you should attempt that course of action would depend on a lot of things. How far away we’re you when you got the vector, was it one that had you on a natural course to just continue on it and intercept? Your altitude at the time of going NORDO and the altitude you need to be at to complete the Approach are going to figure into this. Other than (c) (1) (ii), FAR 91.185 is pretty much out of the picture and AIM 6-4-1 a. will be running the show, going VFR if able notwithstanding.
Give us a starting point here. Where and at what altitude were you when the Radios crapped out on you? What was your vector? Had you been given a series of vectors? Are you situationally aware of just about exactly where you are? Let’s all play with it. There is no ‘pat’ answer here.

Ok for my scenario I filed from RYY via AHN, IRQ, ALD then to HXD and I was cleared as filed. Weather was 2300 bkn 5 miles vis so no alternate. I would think they know since I did not file to SAV then HXD that some vectors are needed. I desired the rwy 21. However I'm at 5000, 10 miles northwest of ALD and go nordo. I have no GPS or foreflight, just two VORs and DME.

If it were me I think I would fly a known vector to SAV and try the VOR A. I would climb to 6000 after crossing ALD turn south on V37 and stay 6000 until SAV and then descend. What would you do?

 

[luvflyin]

Ok for my scenario I filed from RYY via AHN, IRQ, ALD then to HXD and I was cleared as filed. Weather was 2300 bkn 5 miles vis so no alternate. I would think they know since I did not file to SAV then HXD that some vectors are needed. I desired the rwy 21. However I'm at 5000, 10 miles northwest of ALD and go nordo. I have no GPS or foreflight, just two VORs and DME.

If it were me I think I would fly a known vector to SAV and try the VOR A. I would climb to 6000 after crossing ALD turn south on V37 and stay 6000 until SAV and then descend. What would you do?

You never got a Vector in that scenario so your questions in your post #1 that started this are not a thang. Can’t say what I would do sitting here. To many variables. Your go to SAV and do the VOR-A is something I might do and I think might be the best thing to do. You did say “...I would fly a known vector to SAV...” and then said ‘...turn south on V137...” That is not a Vector

 

[luvflyin]

Ah! You point out the fallacy of the "go to the clearance limit" requirement. Funny thing is, the requirement was written when there was no RNAV capability.

Let me ask this: Do you want a checkride answer or a real world one?

Real world: In my planning, I don't choose routes based on lost comm scenarios. We are no longer in an era where we are flying with a single stand-alone radio running on vacuum tubes. Think about what actually has to go wrong to have pilot-side lost comm with our modern and redundant equipment. All the most likely scenarios are emergencies. Heck you'd probably be using your iPad or phone to navigate at that point. And of course, since you are not communicating, even if your failure to communicate is because all the wiring to all of your radios just happened to come loose at exactly the same time, affecting nothing else, and you never encounter visual conditions, ATC doesn't know that. So they are going to treat it as an emergency.

Checkride: I can mouth the rules as well as anyone else, but even then, there is the very first paragraph of the AIM discussion of lost comm (my emphasis):

6-4-1. Two-way Radio Communications Failure
a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).​

Speaking of checkride answers, we got ex DPE’s and current DPE’s here. @dtuuri , you’re already here. Paging @Ryan F.

 

[2nd505th]

I meant victor, not vector. Ok so 10 miles NE of ALD they say cross ALD then heading 110. Then that's the last thing you hear and not because you died.

 

[luvflyin]

I meant victor, not vector. Ok so 10 miles NE of ALD they say cross ALD then heading 110. Then that's the last thing you hear and not because you died.

I would very likely try to salvage it and vector myself to the Localizer assuming CHS is on the air and I’ve ID’d it. There are adequate clues on the Enroute Chart. My beginning point would be about the 245r to make a reasonable dogleg turn and about the 225r as my cut off point if not having received the Localizer. Then probably to SAV for the VOR-A. I would be cognizant of V437’s MEA, V1’s MOCA and have had a look at the Sectional or other suitable source of Terrain and obstructions.

 

[dtuuri]

I meant victor, not vector. Ok so 10 miles NE of ALD they say cross ALD then heading 110. Then that's the last thing you hear and not because you died.

If you had planned for radio failure you might have put SAV in your route description. Even if you didn't put it there you'd be aware of where you need to go to begin the VOR-A approach, it's only a question of the authority: 91.185 or 91.3. If under 91.185, I wouldn't climb like you said. Read 91.185(c)(2).

 

[luvflyin]

If you had planned for radio failure you might have put SAV in your route description. Even if you didn't put it there you'd be aware of where you need to go to begin the VOR-A approach, it's only a question of the authority: 91.185 or 91.3. If under 91.185, I wouldn't climb like you said. Read 91.185(c)(2).

I was thinking the same thing about altitude on V37. But 91.185 (c) (2) has an i, ii and iii, ii being pertinent here. MOCA of 1600 and MEA 6000 on V37. Looks like there may be some reception problems there. Having a change over point on such a short segment instead of letting it be halfway bears this out.

 

[sourdough44]

I vote, stay predictable, squawk 7600, land at that airport if so equipped for weather.

 

[dtuuri]

I was thinking the same thing about altitude on V37. But 91.185 (c) (2) has an i, ii and iii, ii being pertinent here. MOCA of 1600 and MEA 6000 on V37. Looks like there may be some reception problems there. Having a change over point on such a short segment instead of letting it be halfway bears this out.

Yes, you're right. I was in a hurry and didn't look at the MEA. Heck, I didn't even read the whole comment the OP made about V37. Sorry, OP, 'bout that. I've been in and out of Hilton Head more times than I can count, even had an engine failure on climbout once and diverted into Savannah. I didn't think for a moment that, these days, the MEA would require a climb from 5000' down there in the Lowcountry.

 

[Velocity173]

The MVA is low in that area. 1,500 ft around the IF and FAF. They do have some airway reception issues prohibiting a lower MEA. 11,000 ft for V1!