Lost comms question.

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
2,321
Location
Madison, WI
Display Name
Display name:
Dirty B
Scenario:

Flight plan is airport-vor-vor-airport. The second VOR is within say 3-5 miles of the destination airport.

You lose coms prior to reaching the first VOR. I understand what to do up to the point that I get to the second VOR.. troubleshoot radios, squawk 7600, fly my route and the proper altitudes. My understanding is that I want to depart the second VOR(if an IAF) and fly the approach to arrive as close as possible to the ETA as I can.

How do I determine which approach to fly? Say the VOR serves as an IAF for several approaches to different runways. My radio went dead, I don't know what the weather is, nor which runways are in use. Just pick one that isn't NOTAMd closed?? Fly an approach and circle if necessary? Not sure what the correct thing to do would be. I'd say that through all this training, none of it has been that hard for me to grasp except for lost comms procedures, simply because there are so many possible situations that could arise.

Of course this is under the assumption that I don't find VFR conditions along the way.
 
Someone will be along shortly to give you the textbook answer...

But my real world answer is use what ever approach is easiest/gets you on the runway or VFR the quickest. If I'm lost comm I am expecting atc to clear the airspace anyways. I don't have much worry about regs in that situation...use your emergency authority to get yourself safely on the ground
 
I wouldn't worry about trying to work through every possible scenario. I agree with the post above, there is probably enough stress so don't get too wrapped up in trying to not mess something up. Just use good judgement, be predictable, and shoot the most reasonable/easiest approach that factors in the weather and conditions.
 
^^^Those are pretty much the "text book answer." AIM 6-4-1 a. You said "I don't know what the weather is, nor which runways are in use." Yes you do. Well not actually, but you did plan the flight didn't you, including weather?

One thing you can do is compare the current weather when briefing to the forecast weather at your ETA. If they are not significantly different and the destination has a "telephone number ATIS" you can get a pretty good idea of which runway and approach are likely to be in use when you get there, but if for some reason that's not the "most reasonable/easiest" approach don't feel you have to do that one.

Take a minute or two when planning your flight and ask yourself "what if I go NORDO, what am I probably going to do"? Now you can spend more time "aviating" and less time "wondering" if it happens.
 
The lost comm procedure should include attempting to call FSS on a cell phone or calling ATC directly since everyone carries cell phones nowadays. It may not work but it might.
 
As soon as ATC realizes that a lost-comm situation exists they protect ALL approaches at the destination...you choose the one to use.

Bob Gardner
 
Witmo said:
The lost comm procedure should include attempting to call FSS on a cell phone or calling ATC directly since everyone carries cell phones nowadays. It may not work but it might.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't put that on the list of priorities... the last thing I am worrying about if I lose comms in IMC is contacting flight service or ATC via phone. I would try to use my handheld if I had one but I'm not fiddling with a cell phone in IMC with dying instruments. If I loose comms my thought is I'm probably going to lose other instruments soon (430, nav radio, etc) if I haven't already. So my 1st and only priority is getting on the ground safely quickly. I'll figure out the FAA paperwork afterwards.
 
neilw2 said:
I wouldn't put that on the list of priorities... the last thing I am worrying about if I lose comms in IMC is contacting flight service or ATC via phone. I would try to use my handheld if I had one but I'm not fiddling with a cell phone in IMC with dying instruments. If I loose comms my thought is I'm probably going to lose other instruments soon (430, nav radio, etc) if I haven't already. So my 1st and only priority is getting on the ground safely quickly. I'll figure out the FAA paperwork afterwards.
Click to expand...
I agree, "fly the airplane" always comes first. FAA paperwork doesn't even make the list.
 
Dumb newbie questions: how often do comms go out? How many people carry handheld as backup? P.S. @ Bob Gardner: I'm really enjoying your books.
 
I've had one comm failure in the airplane (audio panel issue, so both comes were affected), and I've had approach control go off the air as I was being vectored on the downwind for the approach (I contacted tower for my approach clearance).
 
Circuit Flyer said:
Dumb newbie questions: how often do comms go out? How many people carry handheld as backup? P.S. @ Bob Gardner: I'm really enjoying your books.
Click to expand...
I've been flying for 25 yrs and other than temporary issues that were resolved , I've never been lost comm.
 
41 years flying planes from SEL to jets, GA & airlines, and never had one. Did have a wire come loose on the speaker in a C172 once so I lost comm w/ approach but then got it back.

edit: Remembered I had one! I was flying a C172 I think on a VFR flight plan, may have started as an IFR flight plan, anyway, from Bergstrom AFB (Austin) to Eglin AFB (aero club plane). East of Pensacola noticed I wasn't hearing any transmissions and realized I had lost electrical power. As I couldn't transmit, instead of trying to land at Eglin w/ a light gun I went to Crestview and landed there. Turned out to be a loose alt belt.
 
Last edited:
I have lost comms once or twice,but never while IFR. Fly the airplane,pick an approach that works for you,and fly it. I do also carry a portable,which isn't much good without an external antenna.
 
Last edited:
Circuit Flyer said:
Dumb newbie questions: how often do comms go out? How many people carry handheld as backup? P.S. @ Bob Gardner: I'm really enjoying your books.
Click to expand...
You'll lose lots of stuff if the alternator blows up and you don't catch it. Radio transmission is first.

Alternator faults are astonishingly common. For that reason I do carry a handheld.

Loss of communication doesn't always mean a failed radio. It can mean a wrong frequency or some other user error. I came near it yesterday (VFR flight following) when I got handed off too early and the new sector couldn't hear me. Not all radios have flip-flops, so it's good practice to write down each frequency so you know the last one.
 
Thanks! Good to know. I'm a fan of redundancies.
 
NORDO 1 time. Was on my solo x-country. It was the alternator.

Handheld - Check! But I usually only actually use it on the golf cart.
 
Fly out here in the west. Lost comms aren't uncommon. Usually not a technical fault in the aircraft. Terrain shadows or ground equipment problems are much more likely. ATC knows where the terrain problems are but they can get distracted or forget about you. The equipment problems are interesting if they haven't figured out that a transmitter is down or they are just using the wrong button. If they know the equipment is down they'll just tell you to call in xx minutes or over some nav aid/reporting point when you'll be in range of a functioning transmitter. In general fly as high as you can so you can be seen and talk. Sometimes weather forces you lower and then you might have to forget FF.
 
One time I lost comm while making a VFR transition through Oakland's Class C surface area. The push-to-talk button got stuck, and I couldn't get it to release, so I squawked 7600 and continued on out of their airspace. Eventually, I realized that I could switch the transmitter select knob on the audio panel to a channel that had no radio connected (TEL). For the rest of the flight, I used that knob like a push-to-talk switch.
 
I hadn't lost comms per se but lost alternator, didn't notice, ran the battery down and then lost comms...
 
I was sitting in the backseat of an arrow that lost all electrical one evening while out doing an IPC for the pilot. The instructor tells the pilot to call IAD and tell them we have the airport in sight and want to come in and land (plane was based there). The student flubs it badly and the instructor tells the student to pass the radio to me in the back seat (the instructor is flying at this point).

I find that the radio no longer can transmit as the battery is dying but I can hear ATC trying to get airliners to relay to us without avail. Finally, I hear "we have a primary-only target 18 NE of the airport, if that is you fly heading 270"." I yell 270 into the instructor's ear and he turns. After a minute, I hear "If you want to come to Dulles, turn 200." We turn and approach clears us to land. As we are on short final, tower says they'll roll the equipment unless they hear from us. With the last dying breath of the radio I tell them that wasn't necessary. I tried to call for taxi, but it was dead so we just went to the FBO. While the instructor debriefs the student, I call the tower to thank them for getting us in.
 
I've lost comms 3 times in 3 different planes. Used cell and handheld to work things out. All in VMC , one at night. It happens!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Scenario:

Flight plan is airport-vor-vor-airport. The second VOR is within say 3-5 miles of the destination airport.

You lose coms prior to reaching the first VOR. I understand what to do up to the point that I get to the second VOR.. troubleshoot radios, squawk 7600, fly my route and the proper altitudes. My understanding is that I want to depart the second VOR(if an IAF) and fly the approach to arrive as close as possible to the ETA as I can.

How do I determine which approach to fly? Say the VOR serves as an IAF for several approaches to different runways. My radio went dead, I don't know what the weather is, nor which runways are in use. Just pick one that isn't NOTAMd closed?? Fly an approach and circle if necessary? Not sure what the correct thing to do would be. I'd say that through all this training, none of it has been that hard for me to grasp except for lost comms procedures, simply because there are so many possible situations that could arise.

Of course this is under the assumption that I don't find VFR conditions along the way.
Click to expand...

After you fly to the second VOR, do whatever approach you can. ATC will be looking out for you. You might want to pick one that will get you under the weather though. If a VOR won't put you under the cloud layer, do an ILS, or RNAV LPV. And if you need to go missed, go missed and either go to your alternate or find a VFR field someplace.

The last thing I'd worry about is the ETA.
 
How well do the hand-helds work? Do they have the transmitting power to speak to approach?
 
labbadabba said:
How well do the hand-helds work? Do they have the transmitting power to speak to approach?
Click to expand...
I suspect the issue is antenna position more than transmitting power. Having the antenna inside a cockpit can result in the signal being somewhat blocked by metal structure of the aircraft. When using a ham radio hand-held, I have gotten best results by using a suction cup mount for the antenna, to put it in whichever window faces the station I'm trying to communicate with.
 
Palmpilot is right. Most of the airband handhelds put out 5 watts. A lot of the panel mounts only put out 8. This is more than enough for airborne use. As pointed out, the rubber coated dummy load on the handheld is the big problem. Handy to have an external antenna.

Still handhelds seem to work fine at least in terminal areas. We "flight of two'd" a NORDO queen air out of IAD a few years back and he had only a handheld to listen to me and ATC. He was able once we got him up to Buffalo to use the handheld to negotiate his way into Canada.
 
Phoning for weather at the destination airport is trivially easy, if you already have ForeFlight open on your iPhone. After opening an airport's "info" page, it is just two very easy clicks to initiate the phone call.

First, the ASOS phone no. is printed near the top. Just touch that phone no.

Second, click "call" when a box opens up.

I do it often. Try it at home. Airborne, it might be harder because of reception (and cockpit noise if you aren't using BlueTooth to your headset), but it works well for me when I am approaching my destination. I make the call before the workload picks up, when I'm too far out to receive the ASOS by radio.
 
NoHeat said:
Phoning for weather at the destination airport is trivially easy, if you already have ForeFlight open on your iPhone. After opening an airport's "info" page, it is just two very easy clicks to initiate the phone call.

First, the ASOS phone no. is printed near the top. Just touch that phone no.

Second, click "call" when a box opens up.

I do it often. Try it at home. Airborne, it might be harder because of reception (and cockpit noise if you aren't using BlueTooth to your headset), but it works well for me when I am approaching my destination. I make the call before the workload picks up, when I'm too far out to receive the ASOS by radio.
Click to expand...
How does that work for airports that don't have automated weather reporting?

Not always trivial.
 
MAKG1 said:
How does that work for airports that don't have automated weather reporting?

Not always trivial.
Click to expand...

Well, trivial for many then, if not for you. For me, the airports I visit either have weather available by phone or no weather reporting at all.

If you have in mind airports that have no weather reporting at all, that's not pertinent to the OP regarding knowing the wind to help choose an approach when radios are not working. In that case having radios would not give you the weather at your destination.
 
Lost the ability to transmit a few weeks ago.

I was near the airport. My mind kind of went blank as to how I was supposed to get the tower to start giving me light signals. Squawked 7600 and orbited until I finally got a green light shot at me. I don't know if the tower had radar and saw me or if approach let them know I was comms out and clearly needing to come in to land.

Having a handheld would certainly of been helpful. Luckily, I was VFR.
 
PPC1052 said:
pick an airport close by that does and call that one.
Click to expand...

If the point is to figure out which approach is in use, why not ask Approach? They'll know. It may not match the weather, but rather nearby traffic. For instance, approaches all around the Bay region are determined by KSFO. This occasionally results in a downwind approach at a different airport. When in doubt, use a circling minimum and look at the windsock.

"Nearby" airports can have wildly different weather, particularly if terrain is a factor or if there is a storm in the area. And sometimes airports with approaches have inop weather -- South County (E16) was that way for a while.
 
MAKG1 said:
If the point is to figure out which approach is in use, why not ask Approach?
Click to expand...

I thought the whole point of this thread was that you had lost comms.

MAKG1 said:
"Nearby" airports can have wildly different weather, particularly if terrain is a factor or if there is a storm in the area. And sometimes airports with approaches have inop weather -- South County (E16) was that way for a while.
Click to expand...

Sure. You have to use some judgment to pick one that actually makes sense.
 
Yep, I'm going to usually have a good guess at the prevailing winds and pick an approach appropriate. My alternate is likely to be a place with ILS-caliber runways so even taking a tailwind (in the Navion) isn't that big of an issue.
 
PPC1052 said:
I thought the whole point of this thread was that you had lost comms.



Sure. You have to use some judgment to pick one that actually makes sense.
Click to expand...

If this isn't thread drift (which I thought it was), all the approaches are clear for you. If you don't know the forecasted weather on the ground, use a circling minimum and read the windsock. Or else do what Ron said, have an alternate with a really long runway, and just take the tailwind if it ends up that way.

With vertical guidance, you can tell if you have a tailwind. You'll need a faster descent rate than normal. At least at altitude. If that's a problem at the surface (it can be different), go missed and approach the other way or proceed to the alternate.

The most important thing is to have enough fuel for all these options. Without that, you may be stuck with a wrong guess on a short-ish runway.

Cell phones at altitude may or may not work. Some will flat out refuse if they contact too many cell towers. Considering that many of the approaches around here start above 5000, that might be a problem.
 
FWIW, a friend has a J3 and we could talk to approach at about 10 miles from the airport before coms dropped. Altitude maybe around 2500 feet or so.

Edit: J3 with a handheld.
 
Last edited:
Lost comms a few weeks ago heading home from TN, while on VFR flight following. Changed squawk to 7600 and circle descended to line up for the nearest airport (untowered field, maybe three miles away). Grabbed my handheld from my bag and dialed up the CTAF to announce intentions. Landed and ran in to ask the FBO to call Chatt Approach and tell them I was okay. They told me the already got the call, and confirmed I was down safe.

Found the issue (mic jack had loosened up and lost ground), fixed it, put a fresh set of batteries in my handheld just in case and took off again. Once in the air, I called up Chatt and told them I was okay, and thanks for looking out for me.
 
It was 2002. I lost Comms on my first actual IFR IMC trip after my Instrument check ride. KFTY to KBNA. I was with Approach and had been cleared for the Approach. I was beginning to intercept the course for the ILS20L @ BNA. I was IMC, I was getting bounced around pretty good. I guess my wiring was affected by the jolts, because everything went silent. I was thinking about the Missed Approach procedures when I broke out. I saw the The Tower and they gave me a Green Steady, I landed, and of course my Radio started working again! It was probably the best situation having been established on the course, and cleared for the approach. I was still pretty fatigued after the arrival. It was my first actual IMC event, and I felt pretty overloaded. I know it could have been a lot more involved and stressful in the enroute environment. I was glad to get on the ground and have the radio checked.
It turn out to be the headphone and mic inputs were shorting out. What ever was causing the radio silence shook loose on touch down.
Everyone has a story to tell, that's mine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top