Lost comms procedure after takeoff

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MacFlier

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MacFlier
Scenario: airport class D at sea level (to make things easier). Ceilings 1,000 AGL.
Your route is to the East.
Your clearance is similar to this: "cleared to Podunk as filed, fly runway heading, climb 2000 expect 7000 after 10 minutes, etc.."
After takeoff, you go into the soup at 1,000 AGL and lose comms before your handoff to departure. You level off at 2000 per clearance but now you don't have radios anymore.
You've only been cleared by the tower to fly runway heading and then contact departure.
I know that, after 10 minutes, you're cleared to climb to 7000.
When should you start following the route you've been cleared to? After you leave the airport airspace?
 
From 91.185:
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;
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Why did the radios fail? You probably don't know or aren't sure. I'd exercise my emergency authority and descend to VFR conditions, squawking 7600, assuming I was in the flatlands. Not likely to conflict with other IFR traffic at that altitude. Otherwise, I'd begin to fly the cleared route immediately, squawking 7600.
 
What's the question that isn't answered by the AIM?

Squawk 7600. Fly the route you're cleared for. For altitude, fly the highest of assigned, expected or MEA.

if you reach VFR conditions, change to 1200 and discontinue IFR, then land as soon as practicable.
 
MacFlier said:
Scenario: airport class D at sea level (to make things easier). Ceilings 1,000 AGL.
Your route is to the East.
Your clearance is similar to this: "cleared to Podunk as filed, fly runway heading, climb 2000 expect 7000 after 10 minutes, etc.."
After takeoff, you go into the soup at 1,000 AGL and lose comms before your handoff to departure. You level off at 2000 per clearance but now you don't have radios anymore.
You've only been cleared by the tower to fly runway heading and then contact departure.
I know that, after 10 minutes, you're cleared to climb to 7000.
When should you start following the route you've been cleared to? After you leave the airport airspace?
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Hard to say when you should start the turn. What airport? What runway? What what's the Route?
 
I think, eventually, like some mentioned, if you squawk 7600 and fly the cleared route, so initiating a turn from runway heading assignment to first fix and continue, that should be ok.
Descending back to VMC and landing back at the origin (assuming obstacle clearance is ok) might be an option.

Off course, one can't be stuck in RH forever... :p
 
luvflyin said:
Hard to say when you should start the turn. What airport? What runway? What what's the Route?
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Example:
KTKI -> KTYR
Route: GARL9.TYR
Clearance: GARL9.TYR 2000 - 7000 10 mins; RH dep freq 124.30

You take off rwy 18.
Usually, you get over to departure on RH then they clear you to CLARE (no reason to fly over DFW and back).
In lost comms right after take off 18 and in the soup, before you get clearance direct to CLARE, the way I understand it, you should fly to TTT -> CLARE -> ROCKK, etc. If that's the case, I wonder what mess you'll be causing by flying NORDO over DFW Class B... :eek: even though that's your clearance.
 
MacFlier said:
Example:
KTKI -> KTYR
Route: GARL9.TYR
Clearance: GARL9.TYR 2000 - 7000 10 mins; RH dep freq 124.30

You take off rwy 18.
Usually, you get over to departure on RH then they clear you to CLARE (no reason to fly over DFW and back).
In lost comms right after take off 18 and in the soup, before you get clearance direct to CLARE, the way I understand it, you should fly to TTT -> CLARE -> ROCKK, etc. If that's the case, I wonder what mess you'll be causing by flying NORDO over DFW Class B... :eek: even though that's your clearance.
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The SID says “vectors to the assigned route”, not “vectors to TTT”. Knowing that direct CLARE is the norm, I’d fly direct CLARE. If I didn’t know that, I’d probably fly heading 180 to intercept the 094 radial to CLARE.

I wouldn’t consider flying to TTT in any way required by either the regulation or ATC expectations.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The SID says “vectors to the assigned route”, not “vectors to TTT”. Knowing that direct CLARE is the norm, I’d fly direct CLARE. If I didn’t know that, I’d probably fly heading 180 to intercept the 094 radial to CLARE.

I wouldn’t consider flying to TTT in any way required by either the regulation or ATC expectations.
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Assigned route is the Garland Nine Tyler Transition. That says from over TTT...etc. That being said, knowing what we know about what they usually do, I just might do what you said, ignore regulation and apply the logic check. Radar is required so ya know you're being watched so worrying a lot about other traffic probably ain't a big deal. What about altitude? Your flying a fast mover and you're going to get to CLARE before 10 minutes is up and there's that 3500 thang? RNAV is not required so lets play /A. What now? On another note, WTF does SOLDO TRANSITION: ATC assigned mean? You can just do the others any ol' time ya want.
 
Good chance with departure from SL to 7000 you will encounter VMC.
 
I'm wondering what sort of real world scenario would cause you to lose all comm radios but still have the capability of navigating to a navaid in IMC. Most of our GA aircraft have 2 nav/com radios of some sort and most likely if you lost both it would be due to some major electrical failure that would take EVERYTHING out.

At that point I'm using foreflight as a reference and descending back into VMC to land unless I know of some better option.
 
I have been told by my local class D ATC that lost coms is considered an emergency.

Squawk 7600, return to the airport and wait for light gun signals.

If you lost coms because of low voltage you will likely lose your transponder too so be aware that your return may be a surprise.
 
cowman said:
I'm wondering what sort of real world scenario would cause you to lose all comm radios but still have the capability of navigating to a navaid in IMC.
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1. Audio panel malfunction
2. ATC outage
I’m sure there could be others. Those are just the ones I’ve had. True, an ATC outage isn’t a loss of all comm radios, but it is a loss of communication, at least temporarily.
 
bflynn said:
Stuck mic.
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Which, by the way, can often be resolved through judicious audio panel management for both the airplane and everyone else on frequency.

you just have to tell the offender that he has a stuck mic. ;)
 
I know this wasn't the question, but practically speaking as you are following clearance and lost comms procedure, since you are that low (you mentioned losing at 1k), pull out your handheld radio or cell phone asap and call the tower
 
Let's see, you lose your radios a few miles from your airport, that you know has a 1,000 foot ceiling and you are contemplating flying the rest of your route? Big nope for me, I would execute the approach I had thought about before I took off for this airport, or take a few minutes and brief an appropriate approach, then get my butt back there on the ground.
 
PaulS said:
Let's see, you lose your radios a few miles from your airport, that you know has a 1,000 foot ceiling and you are contemplating flying the rest of your route? Big nope for me, I would execute the approach I had thought about before I took off for this airport, or take a few minutes and brief an appropriate approach, then get my butt back there on the ground.
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I had the same scenario given to me on my IFR ride. Leaving a class C airport, you call departure and lose comms. He had his finger on the map about 10 miles out.

I rattled off 91.185. He just sat there with his finger on the map right outside my home airport.

I said I’d troubleshoot it (switch radios, check volume knobs, try back with last controller). He just sat there.

Finally I said I’d squawk 7600, load an approach, let them scatter airplanes and I’m coming back. Sort it out on the ground.

He took his finger off the map and moved on the the next question.


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crash7 said:
I had the same scenario given to me on my IFR ride. Leaving a class C airport, you call departure and lose comms. He had his finger on the map about 10 miles out.

I rattled off 91.185. He just sat there with his finger on the map right outside my home airport.

I said I’d troubleshoot it (switch radios, check volume knobs, try back with last controller). He just sat there.

Finally I said I’d squawk 7600, load an approach, let them scatter airplanes and I’m coming back. Sort it out on the ground.

He took his finger off the map and moved on the the next question.


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Any information about how extensive the cloud coverage is? If I think the cloud cover it's fairly localized, I might continue on to VFR conditions.
 
PPC1052 said:
Any information about how extensive the cloud coverage is? If I think the cloud cover it's fairly localized, I might continue on to VFR conditions.
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True.

The scenario was solid IMC for the whole route. Earlier we talked if it was VMC (or encounter it) to land and get out of the system.


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crash7 said:
I had the same scenario given to me on my IFR ride. Leaving a class C airport, you call departure and lose comms. He had his finger on the map about 10 miles out.

I rattled off 91.185. He just sat there with his finger on the map right outside my home airport.

I said I’d troubleshoot it (switch radios, check volume knobs, try back with last controller). He just sat there.

Finally I said I’d squawk 7600, load an approach, let them scatter airplanes and I’m coming back. Sort it out on the ground.

He took his finger off the map and moved on the the next question.


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Yup, I told my guy the 'standard' answer, then I said, but if I'm close to where I started, and it makes sense to go back, that's what I'm doing. He just nodded his head and we moved on.
 
cowman said:
I'm wondering what sort of real world scenario would cause you to lose all comm radios but still have the capability of navigating to a navaid in IMC. Most of our GA aircraft have 2 nav/com radios of some sort and most likely if you lost both it would be due to some major electrical failure that would take EVERYTHING out.

At that point I'm using foreflight as a reference and descending back into VMC to land unless I know of some better option.
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MauleSkinner said:
1. Audio panel malfunction
2. ATC outage
I’m sure there could be others. Those are just the ones I’ve had. True, an ATC outage isn’t a loss of all comm radios, but it is a loss of communication, at least temporarily.
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Also, headset failure combined with loudspeaker failure.
 
crash7 said:
He took his finger off the map and moved on the the next question.


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I had just the opposite experience on my checkride. I suggested the emergency authority to return to the field while caveating it with what the "official" answer is.
The examiner didn't much care for my practical answer.
 
DoubleD said:
Why did the radios fail? You probably don't know or aren't sure. I'd exercise my emergency authority and descend to VFR conditions, squawking 7600, assuming I was in the flatlands. Not likely to conflict with other IFR traffic at that altitude. Otherwise, I'd begin to fly the cleared route immediately, squawking 7600.
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That's probably OK for the original scenario (class D airport, presumably not inside a class B terminal area). But if there's more-complex airspace around, I think the best bet is to do exactly what ATC expects you to do, assuming you have no reason to suspect other problems (e.g. no alternator failure, no smell of smoke, no unusual readings on instruments). If they can see you behaving as expected, they won't reroute as much other traffic; in essence, you're communicating with them by the way you're moving the plane.

In my case, my lost comms in IFR happened on arrival rather than departure, right after ATC told me what approach to expect. My whole avionics stack started going in and out, then failed (it turned out to be a fault in the avionics master switch), so not only could I not communicate with ATC, but they couldn't see my mode C altitude any more — I was just a primary target on their screen, like a big flock of geese. There was VMC below the clouds, so I could have just diverted once I was below the weather, but ATC would have had no idea what altitude I was at or where I was going, so I might have disrupted a lot of airline traffic in and out of Ottawa (this was 2018, pre-pandemic). Instead, using Garmin Pilot on my phone, I flew direct to the closest initial waypoint on the approach, then flew the approach (in VMC at this point) right to my destination airport, which is class G underneath terminal airspace.

The next day, I was able to connect with Nav Canada on Twitter and discuss the incident. They confirmed that the controllers could tell what I was doing from the scope, they were happy with it, and no airline traffic in or out of the big airport was affected. Not all communication needs to be verbal, and being predictable is the most-important thing.

(And, as a footnote, Nav Canada called my home airport and let them know I was coming. It's class G, and NORDO is legal, but it's still busy, so the airport sent someone out with a portable radio to watch me come in and make position reports on my behalf for other traffic. I also now own a Yaesu portable radio, and always have it, charged, in my flight bag.)
 
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flyingron said:
I had just the opposite experience on my checkride. I suggested the emergency authority to return to the field while caveating it with what the "official" answer is.
The examiner didn't much care for my practical answer.
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That’s interesting. Like all things aviation the answer is usually, “it depends”.

From the sleepy class C airport I was at, not much disruption if I turn around and come back. If I did that leaving ORD or JFK, much more chaos.


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From the sleepy class C airport I was at, not much disruption if I turn around and come back. If I did that leaving ORD or JFK, much more chaos.
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I'm not saying it isn't the best answer in practice. I'm telling you that DPEs (at least some of them) will burn you if you don't give the official FAA answer (and frankly, I think that is preferable to one MAKING CRAP UP no matter how sensible). If a DPE failed a student because they gave the official answer because they wanted the anecdotal better solution, it would be unconscionable. If they just wanted to elicit or explain, that is fine.

I'm tired of the FAA's petty monopoly on the old boy DPE system that deprives the community of easy access at a market price, but persists on allowing abuses like this. I've got a friend who had a run-in with a rather sexist DPE. They flunked her for busting altitude on her circling approach. After listening to the story, I'm like, wait: You went below the MDA after you were "broken out?" That shouldn't be a bust. If you've got visual on the field the MDA no longer applies as you are maneuvering to land. Ya gotta descend sometime. The DPE also didn't follow procedure and didn't tell her that he was failing her until after she completed the ride.
 
I went lost comms in the CLT Bravo after entering IMC on my return trip home. Went 7600, descended out of IMC and diverted on a beeline to SVH. Wasn't going to turn around and go back the airport I departed from - which didn't even have an IAP.
 
flyingron said:
You went below the MDA after you were "broken out?" That shouldn't be a bust. If you've got visual on the field the MDA no longer applies as you are maneuvering to land. Ya gotta descend sometime.
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Ya gotta descend sometime, but per the reg it’s not until
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers...
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So the MDA still applies during at least some of the circling maneuver.
 
Yep, I know that caveat, but it doesn't sound like it was the issue.
 
luvflyin said:
Hard to say when you should start the turn. What airport? What runway? What what's the Route?
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I would NOT just blast back down under 1K.. but if you have an IFR approach plate up and squawk 7600 you could climb to the MSA and follow the approach back, heck, the go around procedure could even be followed given that it's designed to keep you terrain safe. ATC will eventually figure out what you're doing
 
flyingron said:
Yep, I know that caveat, but it doesn't sound like it was the issue.
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The instructor I worked with told me to announce when I was descending out of the circle so the DPE would know it was on purpose.
 
So the answer is that if you lose coms after departure just fly the route as cleared?


Also - “expect 7000 after 10 min” - start the climb after 10, or be there after 10? That is, start climb after 5 minutes so you can get there by 10, but keep 2000 feet until then?
 
WDD said:
So the answer is that if you lose coms after departure just fly the route as cleared?


Also - “expect 7000 after 10 min” - start the climb after 10, or be there after 10? That is, start climb after 5 minutes so you can get there by 10, but keep 2000 feet until then?
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Some of that is going to depend on whether the question was asked by a DPE, ATC or PIC. :)
 
WDD said:
Also - “expect 7000 after 10 min” - start the climb after 10, or be there after 10? That is, start climb after 5 minutes so you can get there by 10, but keep 2000 feet until then?
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Expect a clearance to 7,000 ft after 10 min, so if you lose comms, start your climb then (safety of flight permitting; you don't have to follow procedures that would put you in jeopardy).
 
Had a instrument backing nut fall into the back side of the mic connector on climb-out. (C182 with jacks vertical at bottom of panel.) Clicking mic produced transmission carrier, but no voice. Squawked 7600. I headed for the IAF for the approach to the departure runway. Finally, I got a sort of 2-way com going with him broadcasting and me using the ident button. Requested I call the tower after landing. He thanked me for coming back rather than continuing 4 hours NORDO and messing up everybody along the way. (This was before cell phones,which give us additional options now.)
Tony T
 
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