Loran C Termination FY10

ScottM

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iBazinga!
I just got a heads up that in the new federal budget there will be a proposal for the termination of Loran-C. The proposed schedule of termination would be in FY10 and save us almost $36mil in 2010 and $190mill over 5 years.

This came message came to me with a bunch of press guidance and contact info. I'll be happy to send you the contact phone numbers if you have more information. But I do not have a press release that I can post here.
 
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Whatever happened to using E-Loran as the backup for GPS when they start turning the VOR's off? :dunno:
 
Lots of things are proposed...some of them actually happen. The public comment on the retention of Loran-C as a GPS backup has been overwhelmingly positive, and I'm sure that the DOT will bring this to the attention of the president.

Bob Gardner
 
Lots of things are proposed...some of them actually happen. The public comment on the retention of Loran-C as a GPS backup has been overwhelmingly positive, and I'm sure that the DOT will bring this to the attention of the president.

Bob Gardner
This is a little of the media brief that I got today
The President will release his Policy Budget on Feb. 26. This policy will include the intention to terminate LORAN-C service. The termination of an antiquated system that is no longer required by the armed forces, the transportation sector or the nation’s security interest is intended to save $36M in FY10 and $190M over 5 years. Consistent with the Administration’s pledge to eliminate unnecessary federal programs and systems, the Loran-C signal will be terminated early in FY10.
Sounds like it has already been presented to the president to me.

DOT no longer has anything to do with it. This is now the DHS that runs the systems.

The directive I got was to send inquieries to these agencies
  • DHS is the lead federal agency on termination of Loran-C and for issues relating to a federal back up system to GPS.
  • Media inquiries on the termination of Loran-C and GPS back up shall be referred to DHS, (202) 282-8783 / (202) 282-8010.
  • Media inquiries on the impact of termination on Coast Guard activities, facilities and personnel shall be referred to CG-0922, (202) 372-4627
  • Inquiries from maritime industry groups shall be forwarded to CG-5413, 202 372 1545.
  • Inquiries from local communities that may be impacted by Loran-C termination shall be forwarded to the cognizant District GAO/PAO.
The rest was not authorized for Internet release. But it consisted of talking points for any public affairs contacts.

The next step will be for Congress to decide if the termination shall go ahead.

As for eLORAN it's need is being reassessed.
 
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oh boy. DHS in charge of navigation systems.

What could *possibly* go wrong with that?

One of these days the idiocy of the federal government will not exceed my
expectation. (>-{
 
oh boy. DHS in charge of navigation systems.

What could *possibly* go wrong with that?

One of these days the idiocy of the federal government will not exceed my
expectation. (>-{
Well it is because the USCG which runs the LORAN system was moved to the DHS from the DOT.
 
oh boy. DHS in charge of navigation systems.

What could *possibly* go wrong with that?

One of these days the idiocy of the federal government will not exceed my
expectation. (>-{

Your VOR is limited to 3 three ounce bottles in a plastic bag no larger than 4 inches by 3.5 inches and must remove it's shoes.
 
I know where they could save a lot of money!

(Hint: How much do you think it costs to patrol the ADIZ or whatevahthefluck it's called now?)
 
I know where they could save a lot of money!

(Hint: How much do you think it costs to patrol the ADIZ or whatevahthefluck it's called now?)

How much do you think it costs for the Border Patrol to patrol every part of the country within 100 miles of the border?

 
This is a little of the media brief that I got today
Sounds like it has already been presented to the president to me.

DOT no longer has anything to do with it. This is now the DHS that runs the systems.

The directive I got was to send inquieries to these agencies
The rest was not authorized for Internet release. But it consisted of talking points for any public affairs contacts.

The next step will be for Congress to decide if the termination shall go ahead.

As for eLORAN it's need is being reassessed.
\

The proposed budget was handed TO Congress BY the president. Now both houses of Congress get to take their knives and axes to it and, after passing it in both houses, send it to the President for signature.

Over the past ten years or so, the USCG has spent millions, if not billions, in upgrading loran transmitters and timers to eLoran standards. This is money that has already been spent. There are no longer any transmitters/timers from the legacy loran days. Enhanced loran is being used by the maritime industry at this very moment (go to www.crossrate.com). I don't see how the existing system could be shut down while it is being reassessed.

Insofar as loran being obsolete is concerned, eLoran accuracy equals that of GPS. Legacy loran, the kind that exists in some cockpits, is obsolete....but legacy lorans can still use eLoran signals.

Lost in all of this is the backup factor. GPS is space-based, eLoran is terrestrial; GPS signals are weak, loran signals are orders of magnitude stronger; GPS is UHF (or higher), loran is very low frequency; GPS signals are easily jammed, loran signals are not. If Congress wants to bet that nothing bad will ever befall the GPS constellation, then the backup argument fails.

Bob Gardner, ex Coastie and loran station CO
 
From a friend in the USCG:

The 2008 Federal Radionavigation Plan was just signed last month and released this week. It's essentially a top-level strategic plan for the US's radionavigation policy. I read it for the plans for DGPS and Loran, but it does address aeronautical navigation. As far as aviation goes, it's as expected. The takeaways (for pilots):

- Terrestrial based navaids will continue to go away, but the FAA will keep an undetermined network of them usable as a backup to GPS. VOR's will remain maintained at their current level until at least 2010.

- GPS continues to remain at the forefront of procedure development for the FAA. It has the potential to indirectly increase airport capacity during IMC.

- Development of LAAS is ongoing. We all know WAAS can (in LPV cases) get us down to essentially CAT I mins, however with LAAS, the future is airports with a beacon will be able to provide approaches to the equivalent of CAT III mins ON ALL RUNWAYS at the same time (with no worry of those pesky things like LOC/GS signal interference by other aircraft). There have been a few papers presented at ION conferences I've attended regarding this. Last I heard, they are at CAT II mins in simulation testing.

Anyway, interesting read. Again, it's a very high level document and doesn't get into any of the technical details, but just gives an idea where we're heading/continue to head.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/frp2008/2008_Federal_Radionavigation_Plan.pdf
 
please note that nothing in the RNP actually commits the US to anything.

Go back and look at earlier RNPs and discover how little of these future
changes actually happened.
 
Lets not shutdown Loran, I use it every time I fly. My Apollo 618C works perfectly.
 
There isn't a chance in **** that shutting down LORAN would prevent or even
delay user fees.
 
LORAN is maintained by the Coast Guard which is now part of Homeland Security. LORAN is not operated by the FAA or Dept of Transportation. The President's bill removed LORAN maintenance costs from the Coast Guard budget.

Actually this is part of the Presidents "job creation" plan. Without the accuracy of LORAN to guide large ships into small harbors, they now require a locally experienced and qualified Harbor Pilot to guide the large ships into harbor and then be pushed by tug boats. So Harbor Pilots and tugboat owners are put back to work because the large ship can no longer take care of itself. This will come at a great cost, estimated at $200,000 per harbor movement, to ship owners. So they will have their own "direct user cost" problem.

LORAN was infinitely more accurate (6ft) than GPS (60ft) in this area. Each harbor would now need a local differential GPS station for WAAS type accuracy in the harbor.

Yes, I work with a Coast Guard O-6.
 
I'm sure that's an unintended side-effect of the move.

Absolutely positive.
 
I'm sure that's an unintended side-effect of the move.

Absolutely positive.

Absolutely unintended side effect. Just a humorous part to it.
"They" whom ever "they" are have been wanting to decommission LORAN C for years but could not because the accuracy needed to replace it is just not there with GPS.

Want to see a funny location for a loran station? Look just north of Searchlight NV on Google earth. East side of the highway. A loran station in the middle of the Mojave Desert.
 
LORAN was infinitely more accurate (6ft) than GPS (60ft) in this area. Each harbor would now need a local differential GPS station for WAAS type accuracy in the harbor.

Huh? WAAS doesn't need a local station at every single airport... I usually see about 9ft accuracy on a WAAS GPS.

I didn't realize LORAN was that accurate.
 
Update on the termination status

------------

R 251518Z NOV 09

ALCOAST 675/09
COMDTNOTE 16560
SUBJ: LONG RANGE NAVIGATION (LORAN-C) TERMINATION
1. EARLIER THIS YEAR, AFTER RELEASE OF THE PRESIDENTS FY10
BUDGET REQUEST THAT IDENTIFIED LORAN-C FOR TERMINATION, THE

VICE COMMANDANT RELEASED AN ALL-HANDS EMAIL THAT DISCUSSED THE
PLANNED TERMINATION AND OUR WAY FORWARD. SINCE THEN, A BROAD
CROSS-FUNCTIONAL TEAM BASED OUT OF CGHQ, LED BY COMDT (CG-541)
AND COMDT (CG-43), AND INCLUDING REPRESENTATIVES FROM PERSONNEL

SERVICE CENTER, NAVIGATION CENTER, LORAN SUPPORT UNIT, THE CIVIL
ENGINEERING PROGRAM, AND OTHER ELEMENTS, HAS DEVELOPED A
COMPREHENSIVE TERMINATION PLAN THAT WILL FURTHER GUIDE OUR ACTIONS.
ON OCTOBER 28, 2009,THE PRESIDENT SIGNED THE 2010 DEPARTMENT

OF HOMELAND SECURITY APPROPRIATIONS ACT, WHICH DIRECTS THE COAST
GUARD TO DISCONTINUE LORAN-C OPERATIONS NOT EARLIER THAN 4 JAN 2010
AS LONG AS CERTAIN CONDITIONS ARE MET.
2. THE ACT REQUIRES THE COMMANDANT TO CERTIFY THAT

TERMINATION OF THE OPERATION OF THE LORAN-C SIGNAL WILL NOT
ADVERSELY IMPACT THE SAFETY OF MARITIME NAVIGATION, AND
FURTHER REQUIRES THE SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY TO CERTIFY THAT THE LORAN-C SYSTEM INFRASTRUCTURE IS NOT

NEEDED AS A BACKUP TO THE GPS SYSTEM OR TO MEET ANY OTHER FEDERAL
NAVIGATION REQUIREMENT. WHEN THOSE CERTIFICATIONS ARE MADE, THE
U.S. COAST GUARD SHALL, COMMENCING JANUARY 4, 2010, TERMINATE THE
TRANSMISSION OF THE LORAN-C SIGNAL AND COMMENCE A PHASED

DECOMMISSIONING OF THE LORAN-C SYSTEM INFRASTRUCTURE.
3. OUR CURRENT MISSION REMAINS CLEAR. WE WILL CONTINUE TO
STAND THE WATCH AND OPERATE THE LORAN-C SYSTEM UNTIL BOTH
CERTIFICATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. CONCURRENTLY, WE MUST PREPARE

OURSELVES TO OPERATE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE APPROVED BUDGET AND
CONTINUE TERMINATION PROGRESS. IT IS CRITICAL THAT THROUGHOUT THE
PLANNING PROCESS WE REMAIN STEWARDS TO THE TAXPAYERS, THE
ENVIRONMENT, THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES THAT HOST LORAN SITES, AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY THE GUARDIANS WHO HAVE LOYALLY OPERATED AND MAINTAINED
OUR STATIONS FOR THE PAST FIFTY YEARS, AND WHO CONTINUE TO
PROFESSIONALLY DO SO TODAY.
4. TAILORED INSTRUCTIONS FOR SIGNAL TERMINATION, AND
STATION-SPECIFIC SHUTDOWN PROCEDURES, WILL BE TRANSMITTED

OVER THE NEXT TWO MONTHS TO EACH STATION BY NAVCEN, THE
OPERATIONAL COMMANDER OF THE NATIONS LORAN SYSTEM.
5. WE UNDERSTAND AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE CHALLENGES ASSOCIATED WITH
EXECUTING A MISSION WHEN PROGRAMMATIC AND PERSONAL FUTURES ARE

UNCLEAR. WE WILL CONTINUE TO DISSEMINATE INFORMATION TO AREAS AND
DISTRICTS THAT HAVE LORAN STATIONS IN THEIR AORS, FOR FURTHER
TRANSMISSION TO STATION PERSONNEL. THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS, WE
COLLECTIVELY REMAIN COMMITTED TO MINIMIZING PERSONNEL DISRUPTIONS

TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE WHILE FULFILLING OUR NATIONAL MANDATE TO
FULLY OPERATE AND MAINTAIN THE SYSTEM UNTIL TERMINATED.
6. COAST GUARD PERSONNEL HAVE STAFFED AND OPERATED LORAN
SINCE 1943. SINCE THAT TIME, LORAN HAS GONE THROUGH SEVERAL

CHANGES WITH INCREDIBLE ACCURACY AND WITH NEAR ZERO LOST
TIME. THE LORAN SYSTEM SUPERBLY SUPPORTED NAVIGATION AND
POSITIONING NEEDS FOR MANY YEARS, AND HAS BEEN A FOUNDATIONAL
ELEMENT OF THE COAST GUARDS LONG AND PROUD HISTORY. THANK YOU ALL

FOR YOUR CONTINUED PROFESSIONALISM AND DEDICATION TO THE LORAN
PROGRAM AND THE COAST GUARD.
7. POC: CDR BOB FEIGENBLATT, LORAN PROGRAM MANAGER,
AT 202-372-1558, OR EMAIL BOB.I.FEIGENBLATT(AT)USCG.MIL.

8. RDML KEVIN COOK, DIRECTOR OF PREVENTION POLICY, SENDS.
9. INTERNET RELEASE AUTHORIZED.
 
So much for the GPS backup system?
 
apparently GPS doesn't need a backup system.
 
Absolutely unintended side effect. Just a humorous part to it.
"They" whom ever "they" are have been wanting to decommission LORAN C for years but could not because the accuracy needed to replace it is just not there with GPS.

Want to see a funny location for a loran station? Look just north of Searchlight NV on Google earth. East side of the highway. A loran station in the middle of the Mojave Desert.

I fail to see the humor. Loran geometry is a matter of baseline angles and distances. Where the station is located is almost irrelevant, because the receiver makes its position determination by measuring the time of receipt of signals from two or more stations. There is no way to provide coverage to the continental US without having transmitters based inland. Look at figures 1-1-11 and 1-1-12 in the AIM.

IMHO, stopping Enhanced Loran is a mistake, big time.

Bob Gardner
 
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