Looking to upgrade avionics

asicer said:
The control head is either their AV20, AV30 or a 3rd party capable of the old SL-70 remote protocol.
https://www.avweb.com/features/product-review-uavionix-tailbeaconx/
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Interesting.

Is the AV-30 certified yet? The AV-20 seems like it's hopelessly small for such a task and not a very good user experience (possibly button pushes to get into transponder mode if you're not already there, button pushes to get it into squawk-setting mode, a button push for every increment of each digit, a button push to move to the next digit, etc...)

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Garmin themselves is supporting the SL-70 protocol with any of their gear any more, which limits things in the certified world quite a bit.
 
@flyingcheesehead that's some really high value posting. I'm thinking through a similar upgrade path and have been debating many of those points.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
flyingcheesehead said:
OK, your mission - Mainly, being retired and flying in some pretty dry areas - lends itself well to being able to stay VFR.



So at the end of #4... It sounds like this might not be your last plane, that your next plane would be the last one?
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No this will be my only plane, first, last. After researching all the information everyone has flooded me with (Thanx BTW) I find the research keeps pushing me back to the old Garmin GNS-530. I have plenty of room for gauges as all but the KY-97A will be removed. What I'm finding with the newer units that I don't care for are;
1) The newer units are all small, with tiny displays and I have old eyes.
2) the newer units are all touch screen and I'm just not found of in a plane bouncing around the sky
3) They all want to use BT and broadcast to another device, I'd rather it be all in one

So I'm looking at the following;
1) Garmin GNS-530 GPS+NAV+COM
2) Garmin GMA-340 Audio
3) King KI-209A VOR+LOC+G/S
4) Stratus ESG Transponder ADSB in/out
5) Keep the KY-97 for Com-2

With used prices (except the new Stratus) I'm only out $9750 and that seems to be a good bang-4-buck solution and keeps me in my $10k budget. My installer quoted $5k to install these items. A huge screen I can see, the Stratus will BT to my iPAD with ADSB in and now I don't have to mess with the Stratux I purchased to use when I fly rentals. No more up on the dash, portable batteries to charge, wires everywhere, antennas to deal with and of course the overheating issues in Az. The only thing left untouched are the fuses. I'd sure like to have circuit breakers so will talk to my installer about that. :)
 
You will definitely want a good tablet for traffic and weather display of ADS-B data. The 430/530 series are limited to the display of a maximum of 8 traffic targets (which is probably OK forthe most part, but your tablet device will show ground tracks), and may not display weather at all from non Garmin products. I have an NGT-9000, and it has it's own display as well as a wifi module for unlimited connectivity to tablet devices. I usually connect my EFB to it for weather and traffic layers, and my copilot wife connects hers as well for redundancy.
 
I'm not going to tell you that you absolutely shouldn't go with the 530 or 530W, but I do want to be sure that you understand the limitations and downsides because the installation itself is expensive regardless of what you install, so you want to be sure that you're happy with it for a long time to come. Here's a few things to consider:

MrPutz said:
No this will be my only plane, first, last. After researching all the information everyone has flooded me with (Thanx BTW) I find the research keeps pushing me back to the old Garmin GNS-530.
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530, or 530W?

Garmin has already ended support for the 530, so you should consider having at least one spare on hand in case it breaks... Not so cheap any more.

With a 530W, you'll still have support for an indeterminate but likely relatively short amount of time, so you'll likely be in the same boat eventually. However, if you get a 530W, you can also go with the slightly-cheaper Stratus ES transponder instead of the ESG.

It's unfortunate that there isn't a better large-screen option at a bargain price that isn't as old as the 530. The only other idea I had there was an Avidyne unit, but the 540 is nearly as expensive as a Garmin 750... And while the 440 would still allow you to use the Avidyne IFD app on your iPad to give you the "big screen", even that is probably well out of your budget.

So:

1) The newer units are all small, with tiny displays and I have old eyes.
2) the newer units are all touch screen and I'm just not found of in a plane bouncing around the sky
3) They all want to use BT and broadcast to another device, I'd rather it be all in one
Click to expand...

A couple of other things to consider:

1) A big screen doesn't necessarily mean bigger text... And newer screens are brighter and higher resolution, so even if the text is smaller it may be easier to read. Make sure you find a way to look at a GNS as well as one of the newer GPS units, preferably as side-by-side as you can manage (your avionics shop may be able to assist with this, or you may be able to find local owners with both types willing to meet with you at the same time).

2) Try it before you knock it. The "bouncing around the sky" was always the knock that other manufacturers had after Garmin came out with the GTN (650/750) series touchscreens, but do you know how many companies are building aviation GPS navigators without touchscreens now? Zero. It's just not as big of a deal as you'd think, especially since they all provide ledges to rest other fingers on to stabilize your hand if necessary during turbulence.

3) The "using BT and broadcasting to another device" doesn't mean they have to do that. In the setup you're talking about, in fact, the only place you'll be able to get a weather radar depiction is on your iPad via the Stratus ESG. The 530 will not display weather from the Stratus ESG. While a GNX 375 *can* send weather to your iPad via Bluetooth, it will *also* display it on its own screen. You'll also be able to plan a flight at home on your iPad, and send it to the GNX 375 when you get to the plane, whereas with the 530 you'll either be doing a bunch of knob-twisting or you'll have to add a FlightStream 210 to your install (I believe this will also only work with the 530W, not the 530).

Finally - Be sure you get what you pay for when it comes to used avionics. Only buy items that are yellow tagged and have a warranty of some sort, or you may find yourself buying another one in pretty short order.

2) Garmin GMA-340 Audio
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Look into the PS Engineering stuff instead of a used Garmin. There's no specific benefit to a Garmin audio panel, and IME the PS Engineering stuff is top notch. Looking on eBay at the going prices of the GMA-340, you should be able to get a brand new PS Engineering PMA 6000B for the same price.

3) King KI-209A VOR+LOC+G/S
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This is just an indicator, not a nav radio - Presumably you're hooking it up to the 530? Why? For a VFR-only install, this doesn't do much for you unless you're planning on doing VOR navigation. :dunno:

5) Keep the KY-97 for Com-2
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Again, be sure you get this refurbished. All of the electrolytic capacitors should be replaced, and if any of them are already leaking (which is fairly likely), get the board cleaned off as well.
 
Definitely look at the screens on the newer units (GTN, GNX, GNC). There is a huge difference between a GNS 430 (240 x 128 x 8 color LCD) or 530 (320 x 324 x 8 color LCD) and any thing newer. The GTN 650 (600 x 266) or GNX 375 (732 x 240) screens are much higher resolution. Heck, even my small NGT-9000 transponder has a better display than my GNS-430W, and is a touchscreen to boot. You might be surprised how much a small screen is readable with a more modern modern display.
 
Man you guys make this tough, and I appreciate it! :)

Good points about the display resolutions. As far as new vs old equipment, why is a GNS530 $9k used and a GNX375 only $6.8k new? I know without the com it's not really apples to apples but $2k difference for 20 year newer? I'm thinking there's a reason the older equipment is holding its value? I'm not arguing, just thinking out loud.

"Garmin has already ended support for the 530" not true... I contacted Garmin and asked about support. As mentioned here the suggestion was to stick with WAAS but that currently it's all supported with no end date in site.

"Garmin has no plans to end support on the GNS 530 and will continue to support them as long as we possible can. Thank you for contacting Garmin International."

After talking with several install shops I keep hearing these comments too;
  • Avidyne - good product, bad support
  • PS Engineering - good product, bad support
On the flip side I called Garmin and got a call back in 15min. I also sent them an email and got a response in 30min. So I'm going to rethink some of my choices and will try to go all Garmin. I'll draw up my list tonight with pricing and post to see what you guys think and offer any feedback before I blow my budget. :)
 
I think you might have gotten some bad intel on PS Eng, I think they have some of the best support in the business. The CEO, Mark, is frequently on many of these boards and often is the one answering the phone for after hours support. Mark is almost fanatical about support. As far as GNS support from Garmin, as long as they aren't 28V only units, both non-WAAS and WAAS are fully supported for repair. The 28V only units they were only supporting to upgrade to WAAS, but they are no longer doing that, so those are totally EOL as far as support. A GNS530, especially non-WAAS isn't selling for $9k, closer to $5k. 530W's aren't even generally pulling that anymore, heck I'll sell you a 530W I'm in the middle of swapping to a 750Xi in a Malibu for $8k.
 
Ryan Klems said:
I think you might have gotten some bad intel on PS Eng, I think they have some of the best support in the business. The CEO, Mark, is frequently on many of these boards and often is the one answering the phone for after hours support. Mark is almost fanatical about support. As far as GNS support from Garmin, as long as they aren't 28V only units, both non-WAAS and WAAS are fully supported for repair. The 28V only units they were only supporting to upgrade to WAAS, but they are no longer doing that, so those are totally EOL as far as support. A GNS530, especially non-WAAS isn't selling for $9k, closer to $5k. 530W's aren't even generally pulling that anymore, heck I'll sell you a 530W I'm in the middle of swapping to a 750Xi in a Malibu for $8k.
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That's good to know on the PS Engineering support. If it's that good wonder why the installers had a different view? hmmm You are absolutely correct on the Garmin support. They verbally told me the 28v units and 14v 430's were no longer being upgraded to WAAS but the 430's & 530's will be supported indefinitely. Which makes sense since the market is flooded with them. He did make a comment that the WAAS units would be supported longer than non-WAAS if support was ever dropped.. so food for thought.

Yea.. I left the "w" off the 530 statement. Here's what I've found;
430 $4000
430w $6000
530 $5000
530w $8000

Do these even have comparable new counter parts now? Seems the new stuff has slightly different features now? I've also seen them add $1000 for an 8130 cert paper. Most tell me that's pretty useless unless from Garmin as there's really nothing they can do or fix outside Garmin other than verify it powers up and has a display?
 
MrPutz said:
Do these even have comparable new counter parts now? Seems the new stuff has slightly different features now? I've also seen them add $1000 for an 8130 cert paper. Most tell me that's pretty useless unless from Garmin as there's really nothing they can do or fix outside Garmin other than verify it powers up and has a display?
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Your closest comparison as far as base functionality of WAAS GPS navigator, VHF navigator and COM, the 430W is roughly comparable to the IFD440 and GTN650/Xi (though they obviously have faster processors, better screens and more functionality) and 530W is roughly comparable to IFD540/550 and GTN750/Xi (again, widely different screens, processors, etc), that's what's out there with that exact base feature set that you can buy brand new with warranty.

As for the 8130, a "fresh 8130 from Garmin" meaning they either just did the WAAS upgrade or it just came out of a flat rate repair is the only thing that is worth anything.

As for PS Eng, you can look for posts by Mark Scheuer on BeechTalk and Cessna Pilots Society (and probably other forums as well), to get a sense of what I was talking about there. I personally have a Garmin 350c audio panel in my panel, but only because I want the Telligence functionality which is Garmin only.
 
I have never heard or read a single complaint about ps engineering. That’s why I put a pma450b in my plane this year. It’s amazing.
 
If you need big(er) screen. So, what about new 650 for $12k, and a 7 inch G3 glass screen for another $8k? Yes, you're going the wrong way on costs - but you'd get such a huge lift in future proofing, scalability, and functionality.

You're going to need a Garmin GTX 345 anyway, and from what I understand these all work together well.
 
MrPutz said:
That's good to know on the PS Engineering support. If it's that good wonder why the installers had a different view? hmmm
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Interesting. I know my local avionics shop also doesn't do much if anything with PS Engineering, and a friend of mine who works there even chided me for saying their products are better than Garmin's. I'm not sure where that comes from, but it may well be that the shops don't make as much money selling them as they do the Garmins. Maybe @mscheuer can take a guess as to why this might be? I'm sure he knows what their challenges are in terms of selling against Garmin.

They verbally told me the 28v units and 14v 430's were no longer being upgraded to WAAS but the 430's & 530's will be supported indefinitely. Which makes sense since the market is flooded with them. He did make a comment that the WAAS units would be supported longer than non-WAAS if support was ever dropped.. so food for thought.
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Here's the thing. It doesn't matter one whit how many of them are out in the market, Garmin cannot possibly support them indefinitely.

Here's why: We all know that technology moves fast and government moves slow. What this means is that, by the time Garmin completes the certification process on something, there are already components in it that are being end-of-lifed by their manufacturers, forcing Garmin to purchase as many of those components as they will EVER need for both production and later support.

Once that supply of components is gone, Garmin can no longer support the units, no matter how much they want to. The GNS 430 and 530 came out in 1999, the 430W and 530W in 2005. Because you could upgrade one to the other, Garmin ended up with an additional "supply" of used components of the non-W models, but I'm not sure if they bench-checked them all and threw them on a shelf or not. In any case, even the 530W has been out of production for nearly a decade. How long do you think you're going to be flying this plane? In 10 years, do you still expect Garmin to even have the capability of supporting 25-year-old technology?

It's going to be a PR disaster when Garmin stops supporting the GNS series simply because of the large number of units remaining in the field, but it's going to happen whether they like it or not. But if you're going to get one, definitely get the W.

Yea.. I left the "w" off the 530 statement. Here's what I've found;
430 $4000
430w $6000
530 $5000
530w $8000

Do these even have comparable new counter parts now? Seems the new stuff has slightly different features now?
Click to expand...

They're all Nav/Com/GPS units. New equivalents would be the Garmin GTN 650Xi/750Xi and the Avidyne 440/540/550. The Avidyne units are the same size as the Garmin GNS units. The GTN 650 is also the same size as the GNS 430(W), but the 750 is even larger than the 530. It's a heckuva nice unit though.

The trouble with the newer stuff is getting Nav and Com and GPS all in one is pretty expensive. Garmin is doing a good job of serving the lower-cost market with their GPS 175 (just a GPS), GNC 355 (GPS/Com), and GNX 375 (GPS+ADS-B transponder) but none of those units have all three GPS+Nav+Com, and their screens are smaller than the GTN units. They do make ideal replacements for the previous-generation GPS units like the KLN 89B/94 and Apollo GX series though... But you're a couple of generations behind that too. ;)

I've also seen them add $1000 for an 8130 cert paper. Most tell me that's pretty useless unless from Garmin as there's really nothing they can do or fix outside Garmin other than verify it powers up and has a display?
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Y'know what, I probably wouldn't bother on the Garmin stuff. All of Garmin's equipment is flat-rate repair. I'm not sure what that costs on a GNS 530W but I believe it's on the order of $1500. I'd save my money for the repair when it becomes necessary.

Ryan Klems said:
As for PS Eng, you can look for posts by Mark Scheuer on BeechTalk and Cessna Pilots Society (and probably other forums as well), to get a sense of what I was talking about there.
Click to expand...

Other forums, like for example here. @mscheuer

I personally have a Garmin 350c audio panel in my panel, but only because I want the Telligence functionality which is Garmin only.
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That is exactly what I have, and for the same reason. If I didn't have a GTN, I'd have a PMA 450B.

I still remember the first time I flew behind a PS Engineering audio panel - The difference was that noticeable.
 
WDD said:
If you need big(er) screen. So, what about new 650 for $12k, and a 7 inch G3 glass screen for another $8k? Yes, you're going the wrong way on costs - but you'd get such a huge lift in future proofing, scalability, and functionality.

You're going to need a Garmin GTX 345 anyway, and from what I understand these all work together well.
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Wouldn't even need a 650 or a GTX 345 in that case - A GNX 375 would give both GPS and transponder.

In fact, you may have hit on an interesting option for @MrPutz to consider. The G3X Touch has a larger screen than any of the GPS units we've talked about, and it has a built-in VFR GPS so there's no need to buy any of the others we've talked about. I'd have to look at actual screen size and resolution compared to the others, but that could end up being the "budget" option!
 
He still needs a com and nav radio. And with one display add $2000 for the larger 10 inch panel. But wow what a panel that would make. Loose some round gauges. Keep attitude for required back up.

GTX 345 $5200 + GTN 650 $11000+ G3 7 inch $ 8000 = $24000

GNX 375 $8000 + GNC 255 nav com $4500 + G3 7 inch $8000 = $20500
 
It seems like if you need ADS-B and want panel GPS nav, the GNX375 is a compelling. Especially if you have a workable COM or NAV/COM.

However you go with avionics upgrades, you have to plan ahead with system compatibility. You don't want to wind up with choices that are not interoperable, and are not compatible with future upgrades, like autopilot integration or glass panel or gyros. Or wind up with clumsy or poor EFB interoperability.

Keep in mind when Garmin runs out of screens or some other critical part for the GNS 430/530, that's it. They won't be making new ones. My 430W will probably morph into an IFD440 before that happens. The 430W is a tank, but at some point it will fail and need those critical parts.
 
Just wanna say, I'm excited for you! looks like a great little plane. I hope to join you soon!
 
For what it’s worth I much prefer and find easier to read the slightly smaller but much higher resolution screen of the GNX 375 to a 430 or 530.

As said by someone above if you prefer to use the knobs to access and enter information that can still be done on the touch screen navigators but I think you’ll find you won’t want or need to.
 
If IFR is not a priority, I think the shopping list is not sensible.

1. Fix the ADS-B situation. New transponder, tailbeacon, whatever. You're based near a hectic class B and need to be seen and see others for peace of mind if nothing else.

2. Fly VFR using an ipad of choice. It will be better than any GPS panel-mount for VFR operations. Demo both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight, one will be obviously "your jam" and worth subscribing to. You don't value the IFR stuff, and installing IFR equipment for VFR flying will cost you 80% or so of the IFR nut, so why even go there when these boxes are getting obsolete faster and faster than ever?

3. Save your ducats, spend it on mechanical and comfort/operational stuff and all of the squawks that are guaranteed with a new plane/owner/wrench combo. Wait for the 2021 model of whatever Garmin is shovelling out, and when you are ready to pursue IFR, then look into the panel options. A large-screen (same size as the 750) version of the 375 makes a lot of sense to me, and I'd be surprised if they don't roll something like that out soon. Or middle-finger Garmin and wait for a Dynon STC if one's not out for -235's yet and get it all done at once.

I don't see a value-for-dollar with investing in a cheapo 430/530 panel. Particularly if you spend your budget and the Lyc 540 needs a cash infusion.

$0.02
 
I think I understand why a few avionics shops might say something like that. My thoughts on that later.

For 35 years we have been working tirelessly not only inventing new audio functionality for our fellow pilots, but we NEVER have taken our responsibility for post sales support lightly.

Our single focus is audio control and nothing else. And while no one or no company is perfect, in order for us to become even better at what we do, I would truly appreciate to speak with shops that may have experienced poor support from us. It would certainly benefit everyone.

Here are some facts about our support:

In 1996, we had a flat repair fee of $199 for out of warranty repair of our audio panels. When the GMA340 came out, their flat fee was $600. A few years later, they lowered their fee from $600 to $200.

We are the only company that provides ProSupport for free. If there are any problems within the warranty period, we simply ship out a warranty exchange. If it is within the first year, we even pay for next day air. How can we afford to do that? It is RARE that our products fail.

We continuously strive to provide the best technical support. Between Gary, Greg, and me, we have almost 80 years of PS Engineering audio experience. And we are growing internally. We are adding another PS Engineering audio expert to our Special Mission Audio Control support line.

Wait time to get tech support is about 30 seconds between 8 - 5 EST. And when there is someone who would like to call us after hours, I gladly give them my cell number.

Give us a call and we will welcome you by your name and what your call is about! We are there to laser focus on what type of problem our customer is having and what we can do to quickly resolve it.

Our out of warranty repair time is guaranteed within 5 working days or less.

I don’t know what marketing programs GARMIN might have for their dealers, but I do know that they have a much higher sales volume than we do. That probably gives them the opportunity to offer marketing programs that we simply don’t have the margins to do so.

We are definitely not a marketing company, rather an engineering company that relies on the product AND our product support so that the products generally sell themselves or by pilot’s word of mouth.

I can assure everyone this one thing, we treat all of our dealers and customers exactly the same with what I believe is “Best in Industry” all around support.

Regarding dealers, no matter how many audio panels they sell, from one intercom a year to 100 audio panels a year, all dealers gets exactly the same price. No spiffs or other marketing programs.

Regarding our customers, you’ll be welcomed with a very friendly voice who wants to get the problem solved as soon as possible. We have a lot of resources to resolve what ever the issue is.

Give us a call even if you don’t have a sales or support question, let’s talk airplanes. It is our passion.
 
mscheuer said:
I think I understand why a few avionics shops might say something like that. My thoughts on that later.

For 35 years we have been working tirelessly not only inventing new audio functionality for our fellow pilots, but we NEVER have taken our responsibility for post sales support lightly.

Our single focus is audio control and nothing else. And while no one or no company is perfect, in order for us to become even better at what we do, I would truly appreciate to speak with shops that may have experienced poor support from us. It would certainly benefit everyone.

Here are some facts about our support:

In 1996, we had a flat repair fee of $199 for out of warranty repair of our audio panels. When the GMA340 came out, their flat fee was $600. A few years later, they lowered their fee from $600 to $200.

We are the only company that provides ProSupport for free. If there are any problems within the warranty period, we simply ship out a warranty exchange. If it is within the first year, we even pay for next day air. How can we afford to do that? It is RARE that our products fail.

We continuously strive to provide the best technical support. Between Gary, Greg, and me, we have almost 80 years of PS Engineering audio experience. And we are growing internally. We are adding another PS Engineering audio expert to our Special Mission Audio Control support line.

Wait time to get tech support is about 30 seconds between 8 - 5 EST. And when there is someone who would like to call us after hours, I gladly give them my cell number.

Give us a call and we will welcome you by your name and what your call is about! We are there to laser focus on what type of problem our customer is having and what we can do to quickly resolve it.

Our out of warranty repair time is guaranteed within 5 working days or less.

I don’t know what marketing programs GARMIN might have for their dealers, but I do know that they have a much higher sales volume than we do. That probably gives them the opportunity to offer marketing programs that we simply don’t have the margins to do so.

We are definitely not a marketing company, rather an engineering company that relies on the product AND our product support so that the products generally sell themselves or by pilot’s word of mouth.

I can assure everyone this one thing, we treat all of our dealers and customers exactly the same with what I believe is “Best in Industry” all around support.

Regarding dealers, no matter how many audio panels they sell, from one intercom a year to 100 audio panels a year, all dealers gets exactly the same price. No spiffs or other marketing programs.

Regarding our customers, you’ll be welcomed with a very friendly voice who wants to get the problem solved as soon as possible. We have a lot of resources to resolve what ever the issue is.

Give us a call even if you don’t have a sales or support question, let’s talk airplanes. It is our passion.
Click to expand...

Good stuff, thanks.

One question, do your latest audio panels (450x) have firmware that is field upgradable? If yes, is there a list of new functionality or fixes in the releases?
 
schmookeeg said:
If IFR is not a priority, I think the shopping list is not sensible.

1. Fix the ADS-B situation. New transponder, tailbeacon, whatever. You're based near a hectic class B and need to be seen and see others for peace of mind if nothing else.

2. Fly VFR using an ipad of choice. It will be better than any GPS panel-mount for VFR operations. Demo both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight, one will be obviously "your jam" and worth subscribing to. You don't value the IFR stuff, and installing IFR equipment for VFR flying will cost you 80% or so of the IFR nut, so why even go there when these boxes are getting obsolete faster and faster than ever?

3. Save your ducats, spend it on mechanical and comfort/operational stuff and all of the squawks that are guaranteed with a new plane/owner/wrench combo. Wait for the 2021 model of whatever Garmin is shovelling out, and when you are ready to pursue IFR, then look into the panel options. A large-screen (same size as the 750) version of the 375 makes a lot of sense to me, and I'd be surprised if they don't roll something like that out soon. Or middle-finger Garmin and wait for a Dynon STC if one's not out for -235's yet and get it all done at once.

I don't see a value-for-dollar with investing in a cheapo 430/530 panel. Particularly if you spend your budget and the Lyc 540 needs a cash infusion.

$0.02
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I was going to say pretty much all of that...I don't understand why someone would want to incur the expense of a panel gps if they had no interest in IFR training or rating. Stratus ESG (gets you a new transponder, adsb out/in), decent Android tablet (OP mentioned wasn't a fan of iStuff) running iFlyGPS (Vfr subscription much cheaper than FF/GP, and it's a great app), and buy a handheld com as a backup. Go fly.. a lot. You've spent $5000, tops, (or much less if you are willing and able to do some of the work and have an a&p that will assist) and you're good to go.

As an aside, personally, the desire to routinely make 1000 mile trips also triggers the desire for an instrument rating unless you live a VERY unscheduled life. Then....we are of course back to the other panel plans.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Good stuff, thanks.

One question, do your latest audio panels (450x) have firmware that is field upgradable? If yes, is there a list of new functionality or fixes in the releases?
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The PMA450B (or any of our audio panels) firmware can not be upgraded in the field. Being an audio panel, while the firmware is used for IntelliAudio, IntelliVox, and the graphical user interface, much of the "work" in our audio panels is done in hardware.

Because there was a PMA450 and a PMA450A before the PMA450B, the "B" got the advantages of 4 years of field experience. We consider the PMA450B to be a mature product.

Since it's introduction in June 2018, there were just two "firmware" changes, the other two where clarifications made to the operator's manual:

New April 2018 Release
1 June 2018 Revise menu order
2 May 2019 Added specific GoPro device compatibility in §3.15 (this was an operator's manual change only)
3 December 2019 Add flightmate® notes (this was an operator's manual change only)
4 May 2020 Added “S” indicator for switched navaid selection indication §3.5.4 (s/n T45B2103 and up) This change was performed for the Avidyne owners of the world. When they would select either MON 1 or MON 2 in the Radio Menu, we place the letter "S" on the display to remind them that they are hearing MON 1 and/or MON2

The number of "improvements" made in the last two years, it would be impossible for us to justify the costs associated with certifying a unit that can be "field upgradeable". The FAA (and OEMs) are becoming increasingly concerned about Cyber Security, and rightfully so. There a lot of qualifications that "tools" to upload and download have to be met. Considering the stability of our products, the benefits when compared to the increased cost just can't be justified.

I really appreciate your question, it is a very good one. If it was an MFD, PFD, or a WASS GPS Naviator, I can understand why those manufacturers invest in such capability. As much as I hate to say this, audio panels are pretty darn stable, but not boring.
 
Gregory Haley said:
Just wanna say, I'm excited for you! looks like a great little plane. I hope to join you soon!
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Thanx Greg!
We're very excited to get her in the air. Gathering the instruments now and should have an opening with my new A&P end of the month.
 
mscheuer said:
I think I understand why a few avionics shops might say something like that. My thoughts on that later.

For 35 years we have been working tirelessly not only inventing new audio functionality for our fellow pilots, but we NEVER have taken our responsibility for post sales support lightly.

Our single focus is audio control and nothing else. And while no one or no company is perfect, in order for us to become even better at what we do, I would truly appreciate to speak with shops that may have experienced poor support from us. It would certainly benefit everyone.

Here are some facts about our support:

In 1996, we had a flat repair fee of $199 for out of warranty repair of our audio panels. When the GMA340 came out, their flat fee was $600. A few years later, they lowered their fee from $600 to $200.

We are the only company that provides ProSupport for free. If there are any problems within the warranty period, we simply ship out a warranty exchange. If it is within the first year, we even pay for next day air. How can we afford to do that? It is RARE that our products fail.

We continuously strive to provide the best technical support. Between Gary, Greg, and me, we have almost 80 years of PS Engineering audio experience. And we are growing internally. We are adding another PS Engineering audio expert to our Special Mission Audio Control support line.

Wait time to get tech support is about 30 seconds between 8 - 5 EST. And when there is someone who would like to call us after hours, I gladly give them my cell number.

Give us a call and we will welcome you by your name and what your call is about! We are there to laser focus on what type of problem our customer is having and what we can do to quickly resolve it.

Our out of warranty repair time is guaranteed within 5 working days or less.

I don’t know what marketing programs GARMIN might have for their dealers, but I do know that they have a much higher sales volume than we do. That probably gives them the opportunity to offer marketing programs that we simply don’t have the margins to do so.

We are definitely not a marketing company, rather an engineering company that relies on the product AND our product support so that the products generally sell themselves or by pilot’s word of mouth.

I can assure everyone this one thing, we treat all of our dealers and customers exactly the same with what I believe is “Best in Industry” all around support.

Regarding dealers, no matter how many audio panels they sell, from one intercom a year to 100 audio panels a year, all dealers gets exactly the same price. No spiffs or other marketing programs.

Regarding our customers, you’ll be welcomed with a very friendly voice who wants to get the problem solved as soon as possible. We have a lot of resources to resolve what ever the issue is.

Give us a call even if you don’t have a sales or support question, let’s talk airplanes. It is our passion.
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Well, I've been researching for months and I've never heard one bad thing about your product from any pilot (user) so you guys are doing something right! :)
 
OK.. the headache is finally over and I've pulled the trigger.
Was looking for a simple solution, tried and tested, intuitive, bang-4-buck, mostly VFR, KISS, and a hint of some IFR capabilities just in case I ever learn some of that but definitely not going for an IFR rating. I'd spend that money on an A&P training before I'd blow it on IFR but that's another story.

Here's what I finally settled on;
  • Picked up the Garmin GNS530W as I've trained on the 430 for the last year so very comfortable with the programming and will enjoy the larger screen (although not high contrast).
  • Picked up 2 EI gauges 1 for EGT/CHT/OAT & 1 for volts/amps. These are very simple straight forward read outs to help protect the engine and aid in troubleshooting.
  • King KNI-520 is just for me to try and learn some approach fundamentals and have a plane that is IFR certified.
  • Garmin GMA-345 is a nice audio panel with BT and play-back feature.
  • Stratus ESG w/3i system & install kit will replace my Stratux on the dash system, give me ADS-b in/out, a nice screen, get rid of all the wiring on the dash, and resolve overheating issues.
Total out of pocket $14,204 plus installation;
  • King KNI-520
  • Electronics International EAC-1 EGT/CHT/OAT
  • Electronics International VA-1A-300-WS - VA1A volts/amps w/shunt
  • Garmin GMA345 - Audio Panel - new with kit
  • Stratus Stratus ESG w/3i System & install kit
  • Garmin GNS530W - w/8130, ant, datacard, connectors, backplate
The more I looked at the newer systems the more I found myself having to buy other support equipment as you lose features with all the different models and have to use remote BT screens to see anything. On top of that the price kept breaking $20k and the dash started looking like someone put band new 21" spinners on an old '65 Buick Wildcat. hee hee hee It just didn't really seem to "fit" for me. After talking with installers and calling Garmin the 530w will be supported for some time to come due to the market saturation and demand. I'm 63 and hope to keep flying for at least 5 more years and hoping this will suffice.

I'm sure if I had spent more time researching I could have come up with a better, more up to date solution as many of you have suggested but I'm running out of time as my window of opportunity for my A&P & Avionics guy is quickly approaching. I'm just wanting a capable plane so when it does come time to sell I can at least get most my money back out and be able to say i saved buying my own plane vs renting. So hope to see some of you out there and I'd love to see your choices in instruments and then you can tell me what an idiot I was for not going a newer route. :)
 
That will be a capable setup. You will get a USB charger on the GMA345 which is a nice item to have for your EFB devices. I'm still flying behind a 430W and GMA340 and they are very reliable. I went NGT9000 route for the ADS-B transponder, but I got a great deal on the cost. Expanding your ADS-B data onto your EFB is a good idea. Enjoy!
 
Glad you got it set up. You also picked up ADSB IN traffic and weather on your I pad -
 
MrPutz said:
OK.. the headache is finally over and I've pulled the trigger.
Was looking for a simple solution, tried and tested, intuitive, bang-4-buck, mostly VFR, KISS, and a hint of some IFR capabilities just in case I ever learn some of that but definitely not going for an IFR rating. I'd spend that money on an A&P training before I'd blow it on IFR but that's another story.

Here's what I finally settled on;
  • Picked up the Garmin GNS530W as I've trained on the 430 for the last year so very comfortable with the programming and will enjoy the larger screen (although not high contrast).
  • Picked up 2 EI gauges 1 for EGT/CHT/OAT & 1 for volts/amps. These are very simple straight forward read outs to help protect the engine and aid in troubleshooting.
  • King KNI-520 is just for me to try and learn some approach fundamentals and have a plane that is IFR certified.
  • Garmin GMA-345 is a nice audio panel with BT and play-back feature.
  • Stratus ESG w/3i system & install kit will replace my Stratux on the dash system, give me ADS-b in/out, a nice screen, get rid of all the wiring on the dash, and resolve overheating issues.
Total out of pocket $14,204 plus installation;
  • King KNI-520
  • Electronics International EAC-1 EGT/CHT/OAT
  • Electronics International VA-1A-300-WS - VA1A volts/amps w/shunt
  • Garmin GMA345 - Audio Panel - new with kit
  • Stratus Stratus ESG w/3i System & install kit
  • Garmin GNS530W - w/8130, ant, datacard, connectors, backplate
The more I looked at the newer systems the more I found myself having to buy other support equipment as you lose features with all the different models and have to use remote BT screens to see anything. On top of that the price kept breaking $20k and the dash started looking like someone put band new 21" spinners on an old '65 Buick Wildcat. hee hee hee It just didn't really seem to "fit" for me. After talking with installers and calling Garmin the 530w will be supported for some time to come due to the market saturation and demand. I'm 63 and hope to keep flying for at least 5 more years and hoping this will suffice.

I'm sure if I had spent more time researching I could have come up with a better, more up to date solution as many of you have suggested but I'm running out of time as my window of opportunity for my A&P & Avionics guy is quickly approaching. I'm just wanting a capable plane so when it does come time to sell I can at least get most my money back out and be able to say i saved buying my own plane vs renting. So hope to see some of you out there and I'd love to see your choices in instruments and then you can tell me what an idiot I was for not going a newer route. :)
Click to expand...


Finally an update.
took many months to get all the bugs worked out (A&P) and then to get the instruments installed. Very happy with the setup so far, still playing with iFLY 740b vs ForeFlight iPad mini. Really need to get the iFLY 740b ADSB in working from the Stratus ESG w/3i as the iPad hardware sux! It's shut down due to heat more than it's on and I'm just not a happy PC/Droid guy with Apple products. :)

Here's the before and after on instruments;
After.jpg 4VR12Dfw (1024x683).jpg
 
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MrPutz said:
Finally an update.

View attachment 92819 View attachment 92823
Click to expand...

Looks great. I think you did well. Most of us would not invest in "legacy" avionics, the stuff you installed are very easily swapped for brand new stuff like 530w to an IFD 550 and the GMA 340 can be swapped to a pile of different panels like the PMA8000 series or the PMA450B, if you wanted to or a future owner wanted.

This should serve you well for many more years.
 
MrPutz said:
Finally an update.
took many months to get all the bugs worked out (A&P) and then to get the instruments installed. Very happy with the setup so far, still playing with iFLY 740b vs ForeFlight iPad mini. Really need to get the iFLY 740b ADSB in working from the Stratus ESG w/3i as the iPad hardware sux! It's shut down due to heat more than it's on and I'm just not a happy PC/Droid guy with Apple products. :)

Here's the before and after on instruments;
View attachment 92819 View attachment 92823
Click to expand...
Why would you replace that nice GNS530 with Narco 12A's?

(Kidding! Looks like a nice upgrade)
 
Looks like a nice new panel overlay. How did you decide to take it from dark to a lighter panel ?
 
MrPutz said:
Very happy with the setup so far, still playing with iFLY 740b vs ForeFlight iPad mini. Really need to get the iFLY 740b ADSB in working from the Stratus ESG w/3i as the iPad hardware sux! It's shut down due to heat more than it's on and I'm just not a happy PC/Droid guy with Apple products. :)
Click to expand...

ANY tablet will overheat under roughly similar conditions... You've got to keep them cool. That usually means to try to keep the tablet itself out of direct sunlight.

One plus to ForeFlight here: They now have an alert when the tablet is *going to* overheat soon, so you have a chance to put it in the shade before it actually overheats.

In the Mooney, I have no trouble - On hot days, I have an extra vent I can point at it (yoke mounted) and no issues.

In the TBM, I usually just have it on my lap and generally I just forget about it until ForeFlight tells me I'm about to overheat. Usually, putting it on the other leg will get it into the shade.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
ANY tablet will overheat under roughly similar conditions... You've got to keep them cool. That usually means to try to keep the tablet itself out of direct sunlight.

One plus to ForeFlight here: They now have an alert when the tablet is *going to* overheat soon, so you have a chance to put it in the shade before it actually overheats.

In the Mooney, I have no trouble - On hot days, I have an extra vent I can point at it (yoke mounted) and no issues.

In the TBM, I usually just have it on my lap and generally I just forget about it until ForeFlight tells me I'm about to overheat. Usually, putting it on the other leg will get it into the shade.
Click to expand...

Been using this https://x-naut.com/ for the last couple of years in our Piper...many long XC to TX and FL from IA and we have not had one occasion of overheat. Great product, and not nearly as bulky as it looks on line.
 
NordicDave said:
You should consider GTX-375, a WaaS GPS and ADS-B in & out transponder combined.

With the strongest language possible, seriously consider a new audio panel like PS Engineering 8000T or best yet 450B
Click to expand...
I have one and I can say it is the best! I have the 8000BT. So great when paired to my phone for an IFR clearance.
 
Joseph Hann said:
I have one and I can say it is the best! I have the 8000BT. So great when paired to my phone for an IFR clearance.
Click to expand...

@Joseph Hann nice example. The BT feature I enjoy with the 450A is simultaneous integration with the iPad for ForeFlight annunciations and voice calls with caller ID for the iPhone. Caller ID pops up on the 450's display and the soft menu buttons convert to Answer or Ignore.

It's difficult to overstate the clarity and capability of the PS Engineering audio panels. My plane is getting an engine overhaul and I'm renting to stay current. Flying behind KMA 28 audio panels is a stark reminder of the advances in clarity PSE has achieved. Crystal clear stereo.
 
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