Looking to Buy (Again)...Recommendations?

Adam Weiss

Adam Weiss

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aug 10, 2017
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kcmopilot
All, new to the forum, and happy to be here!
Brief introduction:

I'm a 300hr PP-SEL pilot.
Previously, I owned a Beech Super Musketeer (A23-24 200HP) for about 5 years.
Nice plane, but quickly had the itch for more speed.
Now I'm in a club with a few 172s and a 182 now.
Both good planes.

I know I'm about to open a can of worms, but...
I'm looking to buy again, and I want to find the aircraft best-suited to my mission profile.
Soon to be an empty nester, looking for something the wife and I can take to vacation and visit the kids. I'm trying to optimize the price/performance ratio.

Here are my criteria:
- At least 2 seats (don't need any more, but OK if it has more)
- At least 400 payload, prefer 425 or more (me, the wife, some baggage)
- As fast as possible. Minimum 130 KTAS cruise (real world numbers). Faster is better.
- Burn 10 gph or less. Lower is better.
- At least 4hr endurance.
- IFR capable
- Prefer fixed gear due to lower maintenance, insurance, and simplicity, but retract not out of the question.
- Can be certified or experimental
- Cross-country is typical scenario. No aerobatics required.
- Would love to spend as little as possible (like $30K), but absolutely need to keep below $70K

Here are some planes I've considered. I'm posting to see if there are other contenders that I've missed.
- Mooney M20C, E, F,: Seem to be many older ones that are in my price range, but it's complex. Not a deal killer, but if there's something fixed that would beat it, I'd prefer it. There's even some J models in the price range.
- Older Bonanza 35 - again, complex
- Turbo Arrow (III or IV), but these are usually out of my price range, and again complex
- Vans RV-9/9A: I like the 7 as well. These really seem to fit most of the requirements, but they're at the very top of my price range, and usually a bit out of my range. I REALLY like the cruise at 160kts+.
- 182: A little more fuel burn than I'd like, but cruise speed is OK, and price is near the top of my range.
- Older Experimental hot rods: Older Glasair 1 FT, Older Lancair 320
- Sonex: with a bigger engine, seems OK...range is not quite as far as I'd like, and sitting in one, it's really small. Not really the cruiser I have in mind
 
Any of those Mooney models would be good. Manual Gear is cheaper than the electric gears. Also got to watch out what prop you have on and the fuel tanks. Both can drain the bank account if they haven't been kept up.
 
@FormerHangie and @Mtns2Skies you guys are both right.
I don't know how I excluded that from the list!
It seems like a great option, although at the low end of my speed requirements (compared to an RV-7/9).

I'll keep it high on my list!
Thanks!
 
blurceo said:
Any of those Mooney models would be good. Manual Gear is cheaper than the electric gears. Also got to watch out what prop you have on and the fuel tanks. Both can drain the bank account if they haven't been kept up.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the heads up on the Manual gear.
I had manual (johnson bar) flaps in my Beech, and I loved it. Super simple, and when I wanted flaps, they were there. When I wanted to dump them quickly after landing, they were gone...didn't have to wait for the slow motor.

Any more advice on the fuel tanks/Prop?
 
Vans RV-6a's will usually be priced lower than the RV-7 with most of the same benefits.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'd like to say Grumman Tiger but it sounds like you want an RV.
Click to expand...
RV-12 is nice, but is an LSA, and cruise speed is limited to 120Kts.
If the LSAs in general had another 10+ kts, I think there's many I'd be interested in.
 
Your choices are simple if costs are a factor (and you say they are) and you want certified.

Grumman Tiger, as already mentioned, or a Mooney M20C-F model. You could get an Arrow, but you might as well stay fixed gear at that point.

The older Mooney's have four cylinder engines and dead simple gear.
 
rvator51 said:
Vans RV-6a's will usually be priced lower than the RV-7 with most of the same benefits.
Click to expand...
I'll take a look.
I hadn't considered them because when I first looked at Vans, I was considering building, and I saw that the RV-6 is discontinued.
However, buying a completed one could be an option. Thanks!
 
You excluded normally aspirated arrows. I think they would hit the 130ish mark. Complex really is no biggie. Insurance is higher and annuals cost more, but it depends on what you want. The extra speed is worth it to me. All of the planes mentioned above sound good, but of course I'm partial to the mooneys. Given your price range, I think it will come down to finding an example that looks good to you.
 
Older fixed gear Velocity, of better still a Cozy Mark IV.
Otherwise, I think you have the list.

Tim
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I love the DA-40 just as much as the next guy, but they haven't yet depreciated to 70k yet(as the OP asked for). Still looking at 150k+.
Click to expand...

Oops missed that requirement while scanning the post...
 
I forgot, Super Vikings. Never flown one, but saw a nice one for sale a few years ago.

Tim
 
Adam Weiss said:
Thanks for the heads up on the Manual gear.
I had manual (johnson bar) flaps in my Beech, and I loved it. Super simple, and when I wanted flaps, they were there. When I wanted to dump them quickly after landing, they were gone...didn't have to wait for the slow motor.

Any more advice on the fuel tanks/Prop?
Click to expand...

For the fuel tanks make sure to check when they were sealed last. I want to say anything over 10 you want to be careful. You also want to look for blue staining on the bottom of the wings. Also look on the inside of the tanks to see if any rubber pieces are floating around.

As far as the prop, there is a reoccurring AD on the hub connection I believe? You can swap the hub out and it cancels out like mine. If you don't it's a pretty expensive AD. I'd have to look around to find some better information on it for you for better info.
 
tspear said:
I forgot, Super Vikings. Never flown one, but saw a nice one for sale a few years ago.

Tim
Click to expand...

I looked at one of those pretty hard a while ago as well..the wood wings worried me though for some reason.
 
Put your check book in a pocket.

Go fly one of each. When you decide the airplane is worth more than the money in your pocket - write the check ...

In a lot of cases, a given aircraft model really isn't "better or worse" than another. It often comes down to the condition and what happened to the aircraft over the past 40 years that matters more... then again, I fly an A35 ...
 
Where's that Pasta Man to say RV-6A about now? Oh... here I am. And someone beat me to it :)

9's are nice, 6 or 7's give you the option to do aerobatics when the temptation arises.

6 will cost the least of the three and require a more thorough pre-buy since they were not predrilled and the build quality 'supposedly' is more variable.
 
Lancair or glasair, hands down.

Lancair-Archive-Photos-066_highpass_1600x700-1024x448.jpg

http://www.barnstormers.com/Experimental, Lancair Classifieds.htm



glasairpromo.jpg


http://www.barnstormers.com/Experimental, Glasair Classifieds.htm
 
Caramon13 said:
I looked at one of those pretty hard a while ago as well..the wood wings worried me though for some reason.
Click to expand...
I looked into them. The wood wing didn't bother me but it must have scared the hell out of my insurance company. Min quite I got was $4800
 
@SixPapaCharlie's insurance company wan't sure if he could go from Plastic to Wood. Without a stop at Metal on the way. Flying with a fabric interior will also help.

[Man, I really crack myself up]
 
Caramon13 said:
I looked at one of those pretty hard a while ago as well..the wood wings worried me though for some reason.
Click to expand...
Wood wings don't scare me too badly, and they are certainly high performers.
However, I think they'd suck a lot more gas w/ a 300hp engine.
 
If their seating works for you, RV's are hard to beat in the price/speed. Fixed gear. Simple airplanes. The fixed pitch prop ones go just as fast as the more expensive constant speed props and the 0-320's work just fine. Not much gained with an 0-360. They come in side by side and tandem. Mooneys work too.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If their seating works for you, RV's are hard to beat in the price/speed. Fixed gear. Simple airplanes. The fixed pitch prop ones go just as fast as the more expensive constant speed props and the 0-320's work just fine. Not much gained with an 0-360. They come in side by side and tandem. Mooneys work too.
Click to expand...
I think that's kind of where I'm narrowing in.
Mooney C-F (+ fast, good fuel economy, - complex, insurance, maintenance cost)
RV-6/6A (+ meets all requirements, - still at the very high end of what I could afford)
Possibly Grumman Tiger (+ meets requirements, - at the low end of speed / high end of price)
 
Adam Weiss said:
Is that true?
I wondered about those canopies.
Click to expand...

Only if you leave the canopy open.

Like every other airplane in the world, you will get wet while you are entering the airplane while it's raining. Once you are in and close the canopy, you will stop getting wet. The main difference between having a canopy and a door is that more of the interior gets wet while the canopy is open than it would for an airplane that has doors. The big plus on the canopy is you can open it fully while on the ground, and partially while in the air, and that's really nice to have in warm to hot weather.

How often do you get into the airplane while it's raining?
 
One thing about canopies. If you flip, you may be trapped. Sorry to bring that up, but it has happened.
 
Globe Swift? Also fits your mission - just has RG.
 
FormerHangie said:
Only if you leave the canopy open.

Like every other airplane in the world, you will get wet while you are entering the airplane while it's raining. Once you are in and close the canopy, you will stop getting wet. The main difference between having a canopy and a door is that more of the interior gets wet while the canopy is open than it would for an airplane that has doors. The big plus on the canopy is you can open it fully while on the ground, and partially while in the air, and that's really nice to have in warm to hot weather.

How often do you get into the airplane while it's raining?
Click to expand...
Ah...OK.
That makes me feel better.
I thought you were saying the canopy leaks.
Most of the Sonex I've seen leak in the rain.

I rarely need to take off while it's raining...not a factor for me.
 
How far are the anticipated trips/vacations?
 
scorpio said:
How far are the anticipated trips/vacations?
Click to expand...
I fly a bit for work...around the Midwest.
Typical would be from KDEC to KOMA or similar.
Occasionally, I fly KDEC to KFAR, or similar.

For vacations/trips with the wife, probabably 3hrs or so.
If longer, we'd probably split up into morning/evening or across a couple days.
KDEC to KOSH is definitely on my bucket list :)
 
Adam Weiss said:
Is that true?
I wondered about those canopies.
Click to expand...
No....it's the same old BS someone always marchs out every time Grummans get discussed. Old joke here.
Carry an umbrella in the rain, as any sane person would.
Grumman Tiger fits your mission perfectly.
 
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