Looking for other "pilots"

woodchucker said:
SSN 642, only time I “flew” was during quals. I couldn’t imagine a plane with one pilot only able to bank, a second controlling pitch and a third controlling the throttle, all coordinated by a fourth in overall command.
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Isn't that how the Air Force does it :)
 
Polarisguy said:
Did they still call it “Sherwood Forest”?


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Honestly I don’t remember. We were one of the converted special ops subs. It was rumored that one tube had been converted into a hot tub for the divers/SEALS so there was a good bit of joking about that.
 
As a teenager I would take the girls out to watch the submarine races.....

37001727ebe6163f7b04cd2bab6c4e59.jpg
 
Sinistar said:
You found another here :) All my time was on Tridents (Ohio Class). Your post makes me want to write a lot so TLDR warning!!!

First off, I never recalled us being called pilots, ever. You were either a helmsman and/or planesman or unique watch called the Maneuvering Watch Helmsman. All helmsman and planesman are enlisted. And lets just say you are talking the lowest enlisted ranks E1..E3 and maybe a 3rd class Petty Officer (E4) once in a while.

On a submarine, if you are enlisted and not a Nuke or other 6yr Tech school program your bubblehead life starts by washing dishes (Mess Cook). Those are like 37hr long days and expect to do at least 90 days (sucked balls). While you do that you should be rather motivated to earn your Dolphins and qualifying for a watch. The easiest watch to qualify for is the Helmsman/Planesman. This is a fair amount of time sitting at the stations with a qualified helmsman/planesman right behind you. At all times the Diving Officer Of The Watch (DIVE) is right behind the rest of us and the Chief of the Watch (COW) is right to our left. There is also studying manuals and full motion simulator time.

Ironically, the only time officers actually drove the boat was during their qualifications for either DIVE or Conning Officer(CON)+Officer-Of-The-Deck(DECK). It seemed they just needed to be able to do what they will later be ordering the helm/planes to do.

First off, on all the boats with stern planes (horizontal stabilizer with elevator), rudder and either bow planes or fairwater planes (up on the conning tower) there are no pedals. Yep, turning the boat is done by turning the yoke. So that is probably the fundamental control difference. Obviously the thrust is from the rear and things are moving way slower.

@Nub_Pilot indicated a joystick like control. I believe that control system is more like what a pilot would experience however the actual mechanics of it are not at all like an airplane and probably classified (at least it was when I saw how it was going to made).

So back to the standard setup, for turning: You turn the yoke left the rudder swings left. Unlike an airplane and a lot like a ship as you near the final new bearing you actually need to swing the rudder the other way to check the turn. That is one of the things you need to learn for different 'Bells' (speeds) and different turn rates. So you are not banking the sub to turn. New and faster subs will indeed bank but due to other forces but not due to actual control surfaces. The best example of this is that the bow planes or fairwater planes both move the amount and same direction so no like ailerons.

The maneuvering watch helm job is more stressful. Endless fine course corrections and you enter shallow water, tides and ultimately up the pier and you can never see anything. You pin the stern planes in a partial up position to keep the rudder and screw pulled underwater. Definitely not as fast on the surface. The stern planes seat is empty.

The helm has to do 2 things underwater. He controls turns and fine depth control (up/down). So his job is the most pilot like in that its a bit more task overloaded, especially at periscope depth in heavy seas (hated that, not easy to control 18,000tons in 1ft increments with 15ft waves) or some ops with lots of turns and fine depth control.

The stern planes station mainly does just one thing. Control the ships angle. At low speeds its a pretty quiet boring job. At the highest speeds and a screw-up and you can transition hundreds of feet in a very short time. You can only go down so far and not kill everyone. At high speeds this station also maintains depth control as using the planes up front will majorily cavitate (they won't break off, done it many times) but they make noise that can heard forever away. And it feels like the entire ship will rip apart.

The stern planes biggest emergency if a hydraulic failure, especially in the down position.

At no time does these "pilots" directly control speed. The Conning Officer (CON) or Officer Of The Deck who is also the con tells you what speed he wants. The helm enters it on the engine order telegraph. Then engineering (nukies) do nuclear/steam stuff and make it go faster, slower forward, reverse, etc.

The most fun is high speed runs and being both helm and front planes. Lots at stake, especially when operating very close to other big things above or below water.

I'd love to tour a Seawolf or Virginia class. Probably a bit more like a pilot. But I would say very little skill of helming a submarine helped in becoming a pilot. The corollary would a single officer (PIC) sitting in the seat and doing everything himself including navigation, engine control and monitoring.
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Virginia class submarine drives are now pilot and co-pilot. Here is a picture of what the ships control station looks like:

vc-class18.png


Right hand is on the "Joystick" for controlling the depth and course.
 
Sinistar said:
Remember, you are rarely "flying a submarine". Although the surfaces have lift they are almost always in the zero position. Yes, they are used to aid in transitioning from one depth to another but once leveled off the Chief of the Watch and the Diving Officer of the Watch pump water in/out to make it neutrally buoyant again. If they see you using the fairwater/bow planes to hold depth they will start pumping. There might have been a rudder trim for he P-factor though (I forget). If everyone does their job right you can stop the screw and the boat will just hover in the water column. But usually takes the computer to manage it (very small water in/out based on vertical velocity and its derivate) but some COW/DIVE guys can really nail it.
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you can earn your wings if your not careful at periscope depth.....
 
Nub_Pilot said:
Virginia class submarine drives are now pilot and co-pilot. Here is a picture of what the ships control station looks like:

vc-class18.png


Right hand is on the "Joystick" for controlling the depth and course.
Click to expand...

The contrast is just amazing


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@Nub_Pilot .... if you successfully piloted something that displaced TONS and TONS of water.... I'm pretty sure you'll do juuuuust fine piloting something that displaces just a smidgen of air.
 
Nub_Pilot said:
Virginia class submarine drives are now pilot and co-pilot. Here is a picture of what the ships control station looks like:

vc-class18.png


Right hand is on the "Joystick" for controlling the depth and course.
Click to expand...
Any vulnerability to EMP? Is underwater EMP weaponry even a thing?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Any vulnerability to EMP? Is underwater EMP weaponry even a thing?
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I'm not sure there is, and its a blast to me able to operate a $2B submarine to its design limits with speed and turns. Everything is operated by touchscreens which controls all the systems for buoyancy, air, had, and such.

Its so exhilarating which is probably why this is my next step since I retired and can't drive them anymore.
 
AggieMike88 said:
@Nub_Pilot .... if you successfully piloted something that displaced TONS and TONS of water.... I'm pretty sure you'll do juuuuust fine piloting something that displaces just a smidgen of air.
Click to expand...

It’s really like being in your own element. Allows amazing feel and performance especially when coupled with a simply unbelievable amount of power


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Polarisguy said:
Allows amazing feel and performance especially when coupled with a simply unbelievable amount of power
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Downside with the flying is that you need to periodically land and fill up with more fuel.

In Nub's Sub (see what I did there), sub fuel isn't the issue, it's the human kind (aka food). He has neutrons for decades... but if you start rationing the chow.....
 
AggieMike88 said:
Downside with the flying is that you need to periodically land and fill up with more fuel.

In Nub's Sub (see what I did there), sub fuel isn't the issue, it's the human kind (aka food). He has neutrons for decades... but if you start rationing the chow.....
Click to expand...

When Rabbit starts showing up on the menu, you know you’re getting close to the end of the patrol


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Polarisguy said:
When Rabbit starts showing up on the menu, you know you’re getting close to the end of the patrol


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periodically there would be "hamsters," "pillows of death," "3x5"
 
Nub_Pilot said:
Virginia class submarine drives are now pilot and co-pilot. Here is a picture of what the ships control station looks like:

vc-class18.png


Right hand is on the "Joystick" for controlling the depth and course.
Click to expand...
So what is the inboard station guy doing - angle and high speed depth control? Also, what ranks are now "Pilots"? For us it was E1...E3. I can't tell from the coverall insignia but it almost looks like a Chief (E7) at the helm? And why the headset? Man you guys made it way too hard :)
 
This was my view, except it was one generation older (we didn't have the red display panels, just the standard mechanical indicators).
The guy at the bottom is the helm (course) and fairwater planes. The guy one up from him does the stern planes only. The farthest guy sitting where you can only see the top of head s the Chief of the Watch (COW). The guy sitting behind them all is the Diving Officer of the Watch (DIVE).

I hate to admit it but I get more panel envy from our older boats :)

100th-sub.jpg.pc-adaptive.full.medium.jpg
 
AggieMike88 said:
Any vulnerability to EMP? Is underwater EMP weaponry even a thing?
Click to expand...
Not that I was aware of, EM doesn't penetrate water very far. But you gotta think differently. Its not the nuke depth charge pulse that kills you, its the 200G shockwave that breaks your legs and back and neck. Meanwhile all the critical equipment designed for those shocks just keeps humming along running just fine :)
 
Sinistar said:
So what is the inboard station guy doing - angle and high speed depth control? Also, what ranks are now "Pilots"? For us it was E1...E3. I can't tell from the coverall insignia but it almost looks like a Chief (E7) at the helm? And why the headset? Man you guys made it way too hard :)
Click to expand...

so they are senior first class all the way up to master chief (COB). Outboard station is the ship control station (helms and planesman) and the inboard station operate all the systems (similar to the COW). the headsets are what they use for the circuits (27mc, 7MC, 1MC, 4MC,...) plus they can call a specific watch stander or phone throughout the ship.
 
I qualified on 590 and rode 750 afterwards as a Torpedoman in the first gulf war. After getting out I kept touch with the submarine community through the USSVI. I drove a Skipjack class in a simulator, drove 750 for a short time and briefly touched the controls of a Virginia simulator.

What I can tell you about the similarities is that there are very few. You have a course and there is drift, so you have to course corrrect, but that was more of a Nav function than pilot. The basic control functions are the same, but there is a window to look out, force yourself to use it. Things happen much, much more quickly and it takes time to get used to being on top of everything.

Jump in, the air is fine.
 
Man this board is interesting. What career paths can't you find on here?
 
I just watched Hunter Killer (twice, actually), so all this submarine stuff is so entertaining for me. :D
 
Don't believe all the things you see in those movies. My mother-in-law would have a huge list of questions after she watched a submarine movie....80% of the answers to her questions were "there is no way in hell that could ever happen" or "nope it doesn't work that way"

My favorite one is in "The hunt for Red October" when he is sending morris code from the periscope.....ya that doesn't for that way the the FTOW is really ****ed off right now with all the new contact he created(he is really sending bearings to the fire control watch stander to determine course and speed of the other submarine).
 
Nub_Pilot said:
My favorite one is in "The hunt for Red October" when he is sending morris code from the periscope.....ya that doesn't for that way the the FTOW is really ****ed off right now with all the new contact he created(he is really sending bearings to the fire control watch stander to determine course and speed of the other submarine).
Click to expand...

Mine is when the Admiral pushes the button on the cruiser and the helicopter dropped torpedo self destructs. Just think about that from a technology standpoint...how do you communicate securely with a torpedo which isn't wire guided and which you didn't launch?
 
I would imagine that piloting a submarine while submerged would have some similarity to flying a plane in instrument conditions.
 
upload_2019-2-1_23-13-39.jpeg

I was an ELT. My “office” was under the port side shelter that the divers and SEALS accessed via missile tubes. I couldn’t find a picture of the control room but if you compare a glass panel to the pictures shown upthread our control room was similar to the standard steam gauge panel :D

The most exciting bit of technology that I remember was a tv displaying our global position when we went from Pearl to Brisbane for a week of fun then returned to Pearl.

Another fun thing was when going out to sea I would hang out in the mess and watch the tv, which was hooked to a camera at the base of the conning tower. Nothing like watching water rise and swallow the camera as we departed VFR.
 
Are submarines faster when they're on the surface?
 
Sinistar said:
You found another here :) All my time was on Tridents (Ohio Class). Your post makes me want to write a lot so TLDR warning!!!

First off, I never recalled us being called pilots, ever. You were either a helmsman and/or planesman or unique watch called the Maneuvering Watch Helmsman. All helmsman and planesman are enlisted. And lets just say you are talking the lowest enlisted ranks E1..E3 and maybe a 3rd class Petty Officer (E4) once in a while.

On a submarine, if you are enlisted and not a Nuke or other 6yr Tech school program your bubblehead life starts by washing dishes (Mess Cook). Those are like 37hr long days and expect to do at least 90 days (sucked balls). While you do that you should be rather motivated to earn your Dolphins and qualifying for a watch. The easiest watch to qualify for is the Helmsman/Planesman. This is a fair amount of time sitting at the stations with a qualified helmsman/planesman right behind you. At all times the Diving Officer Of The Watch (DIVE) is right behind the rest of us and the Chief of the Watch (COW) is right to our left. There is also studying manuals and full motion simulator time.

Ironically, the only time officers actually drove the boat was during their qualifications for either DIVE or Conning Officer(CON)+Officer-Of-The-Deck(DECK). It seemed they just needed to be able to do what they will later be ordering the helm/planes to do.

First off, on all the boats with stern planes (horizontal stabilizer with elevator), rudder and either bow planes or fairwater planes (up on the conning tower) there are no pedals. Yep, turning the boat is done by turning the yoke. So that is probably the fundamental control difference. Obviously the thrust is from the rear and things are moving way slower.

@Nub_Pilot indicated a joystick like control. I believe that control system is more like what a pilot would experience however the actual mechanics of it are not at all like an airplane and probably classified (at least it was when I saw how it was going to made).

So back to the standard setup, for turning: You turn the yoke left the rudder swings left. Unlike an airplane and a lot like a ship as you near the final new bearing you actually need to swing the rudder the other way to check the turn. That is one of the things you need to learn for different 'Bells' (speeds) and different turn rates. So you are not banking the sub to turn. New and faster subs will indeed bank but due to other forces but not due to actual control surfaces. The best example of this is that the bow planes or fairwater planes both move the amount and same direction so no like ailerons.

The maneuvering watch helm job is more stressful. Endless fine course corrections and you enter shallow water, tides and ultimately up the pier and you can never see anything. You pin the stern planes in a partial up position to keep the rudder and screw pulled underwater. Definitely not as fast on the surface. The stern planes seat is empty.

The helm has to do 2 things underwater. He controls turns and fine depth control (up/down). So his job is the most pilot like in that its a bit more task overloaded, especially at periscope depth in heavy seas (hated that, not easy to control 18,000tons in 1ft increments with 15ft waves) or some ops with lots of turns and fine depth control.

The stern planes station mainly does just one thing. Control the ships angle. At low speeds its a pretty quiet boring job. At the highest speeds and a screw-up and you can transition hundreds of feet in a very short time. You can only go down so far and not kill everyone. At high speeds this station also maintains depth control as using the planes up front will majorily cavitate (they won't break off, done it many times) but they make noise that can heard forever away. And it feels like the entire ship will rip apart.

The stern planes biggest emergency if a hydraulic failure, especially in the down position.

At no time does these "pilots" directly control speed. The Conning Officer (CON) or Officer Of The Deck who is also the con tells you what speed he wants. The helm enters it on the engine order telegraph. Then engineering (nukies) do nuclear/steam stuff and make it go faster, slower forward, reverse, etc.

The most fun is high speed runs and being both helm and front planes. Lots at stake, especially when operating very close to other big things above or below water.

I'd love to tour a Seawolf or Virginia class. Probably a bit more like a pilot. But I would say very little skill of helming a submarine helped in becoming a pilot. The corollary would a single officer (PIC) sitting in the seat and doing everything himself including navigation, engine control and monitoring.
Click to expand...

Hey! Thanks for posting these things. I just love submarines and find what you shared incredibly interesting.
 
An interesting fun fact I read once: there are more planes under the ocean than submarines up in the sky

..I'll see myself out
 
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