Looking for Info on what plane to buy

[PVT Dane Potter]

Hi, my name is PVT Dane Potter. I'm rather new to aviation but currently in AIT at Ft. Huachuca Arizona for 15w UAV operator. And, we get our ground certification in the process (ppkt). As I understand, this means I just have to get flight hours with an instructor to get my private pilot license. I'm looking in to doing so and would in the next 6 years like to purchase a plane. I plan on renting up till then to gain experience and endorsements like IFR Multi and Complex. What I'm trying to figure out is what plane to buy. I know that 6 years sounds like a really long time to plan ahead, but I'm on a tight budget and will have to start saving now in order to make it affordable. I'm gonna use my reenlistment bonus at the 6 year mark to do help. But I'm looking for a 6 seat twin with retractable gear and a cruise speed of around 190ktas at 20 thousand ft. AGL. I'd like it to seat 6 and have a range of around 800 nmi. I've been looking at the Seneca 2 and the 310r and the Baron B55, but as for what's gonna be most cost effective with hangar prices and insurance and maintinence costs and inspections, I really have no idea with what to go with. Note I am gonna have around 250 hours along with IFR Multi and Complex so I'm not looking for a beginner/trainer like a C-172 or something. I just need some guidance on what to look at with the given specs. Thanks for your help.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Altitude AGL doesn't mean anything to an airplane, and 95% of people in GA piston aircraft don't fly in the flight levels. You would want a pressurized cabin if you did often. You are looking at something like a pressurized Aerostar at the very least.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Altitude AGL doesn't mean anything to an airplane, and 95% of people in GA piston aircraft don't fly in the flight levels. You would want a pressurized cabin if you did often. You are looking at something like a pressurized Aerostar at the very least.

Thanks. I didn't know that. How much do those usually run? Am I looking at more like 3 or 4 hundred?

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Thousand. 3 or 4 hundred thousand is good budget for a cabin class pressurized twin. The thing with planes is it ain't the cost of buyin' em you need to worry about, its the cost of flyin' em. A pressurized twin that can take 6 adults 800 miles isn't going to be cheap to fly or maintain.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Thousand. 3 or 4 hundred thousand is good budget for a cabin class pressurized twin. The thing with planes is it ain't the cost of buyin' em you need to worry about, its the cost of flyin' em. A pressurized twin that can take 6 adults 800 miles isn't going to be cheap to fly or maintain.

Thanks. I think I should be able to make that work. There are several 70's model Aerostars in the 200k price range with minimal hours on recently overhauled engines. And, I'm gonna look at some piper Malibu's and the beechcraft B88's. I believe some of those are pressurized. I'm also looking at some piper Navajo's but not sure if they are pressurized.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Thousand. 3 or 4 hundred thousand is good budget for a cabin class pressurized twin. The thing with planes is it ain't the cost of buyin' em you need to worry about, its the cost of flyin' em. A pressurized twin that can take 6 adults 800 miles isn't going to be cheap to fly or maintain.

There's a chance I might be able to stretch to 350 if I can catch a good loan. The problem is that as soon as I see a 1979 or later, the price goes up exponentially. Is the year going to be much of a factor or should I focus more on the hours total and the overhaul times.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Good luck to you and please don't fly over my house.

 

[RyanB]

You would want a pressurized cabin if you did often

He’s going to need a pressurized airplane regardless being at FL200.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Thousand. 3 or 4 hundred thousand is good budget for a cabin class pressurized twin. The thing with planes is it ain't the cost of buyin' em you need to worry about, its the cost of flyin' em. A pressurized twin that can take 6 adults 800 miles isn't going to be cheap to fly or maintain.

Thanks. I think I should be able to make that work. There are several 70's model Aerostars in the 200k price range with minimal hours on recently overhauled engines. And, I'm gonna look at some piper Malibu's and the beechcraft B88's. I believe some of those are pressurized and I know that the

 

[RyanB]

Ask as many questions as you need to and gain as much knowledge as possible before buying an airplane. I don’t want to see you bite off more than you can chew.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Thanks. I think I should be able to make that work. There are several 70's model Aerostars in the 200k price range with minimal hours on recently overhauled engines. And, I'm gonna look at some piper Malibu's and the beechcraft B88's. I believe some of those are pressurized and I know that the

Sorry this was a duplicate.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Ask as many questions as you need to and gain as much knowledge as possible before buying an airplane. I don’t want to see you bite off more than you can chew.

I hear u brother. That's why I'm starting six years in advance. The last thing I want to do is buy a money pit or a plane that I later find out was why to much or way to little performance for the mission. I figure there must be a goldilox model out there. Also my army contract lasts 6 years so my reenlistment bonus is gonna come in then so that in itself gives me lots of time to learn and look and budget.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Ask as many questions as you need to and gain as much knowledge as possible before buying an airplane. I don’t want to see you bite off more than you can chew.

Here's a question. If u need a pressurized cabin to fly above FL180 then why advertise an unpressurized plane with a service ceiling of 25 thousand ft? That makes no since to me what so ever. I was kind of disappointed to find out the Seneca wasn't pressurized cause it was the perfect size for the mission.

 

[Topper]

Here's a question. If u need a pressurized cabin to fly above FL180 then why advertise an unpressurized plane with a service ceiling of 25 thousand ft? That makes no since to me what so ever. I was kind of disappointed to find out the Seneca wasn't pressurized cause it was the perfect size for the mission.

You don't need pressurization to fly over 18k, however you do go from being able to use a cannula to needing a full mask. I have never flown with a full mask, and don't want to. Also strapping on O2 even with a cannula is not convenient or comfortable (IMO). In my non pressurized planes, I usually fly 10-12k, in the 421 it all depends on the length of the trip and the winds.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Here's a question. If u need a pressurized cabin to fly above FL180 then why advertise an unpressurized plane with a service ceiling of 25 thousand ft? That makes no since to me what so ever. I was kind of disappointed to find out the Seneca wasn't pressurized cause it was the perfect size for the mission.

I'm still going to try and find one in the sub 150k bracket if I can. 250 to 300k is doable but I'm going to have a hell of a mortgage if that's the case. If there is a pressurized 6 seater at around 150k let me know.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

You don't need pressurization to fly over 18k, however you do go from being able to use a cannula to needing a full mask. I have never flown with a full mask, and don't want to. Also strapping on O2 even with a cannula is not convenient or comfortable (IMO). In my non pressurized planes, I usually fly 10-12k, in the 421 it all depends on the length of the trip and the winds.

421 as in the Cessna 421? What's it like. I have yet to look at those. Can they be found around 150 to 200k in the older models?

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

421 as in the Cessna 421? What's it like. I have yet to look at those. Can they be found around 150 to 200k in the older models?

I'm looking to save money as best I can but Im not willing to be stingy and loose safety. So if the 250 are is where I need to look then that's where I will look. And yeah I dont think I'd like flying full mask. One of my instructors had no problem with it flying the f-15 and a couple other fighters but I'm planing in going on vacation in my plane not war.

 

[Topper]

421 as in the Cessna 421? What's it like. I have yet to look at those. Can they be found around 150 to 200k in the older models?

I am a fan of the 76-79 straight leg C421 for a few reasons including known ice and useful load. I think you may find a decent B model in that price range, but it won't be known ice and I think has less useful load, however I don't claim to be an expert on any model and don't know much about the B.

The 421C I fly for my partner has a useful load of 2,150 lbs. I can get fuel burn back to 44 GPH but plan at 50. Quick math 800 miles at 200 knots is 4 hours, add one hour reserve and you need 5 hours of fuel = 250 gallons = 1500lbs, now your 6 passengers and bags must weigh under 650 lbs. or you are making a fuel stop. We find we like to stop at 3 hours or less to stretch our legs and get fuel, makes the planning easier fuel wise and keeps everyone happy. If by myself, I will fly 5 hours and weight is not an issue. This is going to be a consideration in any airplane from single to cabin class piston twin (421 is considered a cabin class twin).

The 421 is a dream to fly and ride in. Engines must be managed, but they are not a problem if you are properly trained. I am relatively low time 700 tt with 200 multi which includes almost 100 in the 421 (rest in a 310). I have just now reached the point in the 421 that I am super comfortable and stay well ahead of the plane.

Insurance, hanger costs and maintenance jump considerably moving from a 310/Barron to a pressurized cabin class twin. My advice would be to look at the Barron/310 and plan a fuel stop, however my 310 has six seat and the useful load to fill them, the back two seats are not comfortable for an adult, one maybe that can turn sideways, but two would not sit back there for 4 hours even if you could carry the fuel.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

So I just looked at the 421's and have to say I am pleased with what I'm seeing. Its bigger than the Seneca by a little and has much better performance with the added pressurization bonus allowing flight above FL120. And I'm finding a lot of early 70's B models with fairly low hours and recent overhauls at around 170-250k.

 

[Topper]

421 market looks like it has been a little soft lately (haven't paid any attention the last few months). No telling what the market will do 6 years from now, I think the market was at an all time high in 2008 then went in the tank and may be at an all time high again at lease for piston singles. Sold my 182Q last year and was really pleased with what I got, I bet it is worth 20% more today.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

I am a fan of the 76-79 straight leg C421 for a few reasons including known ice and useful load. I think you may find a decent B model in that price range, but it won't be known ice and I think has less useful load, however I don't claim to be an expert on any model and don't know much about the B.

The 421C I fly for my partner has a useful load of 2,150 lbs. I can get fuel burn back to 44 GPH but plan at 50. Quick math 800 miles at 200 knots is 4 hours, add one hour reserve and you need 5 hours of fuel = 250 gallons = 1500lbs, now your 6 passengers and bags must weigh under 650 lbs. or you are making a fuel stop. We find we like to stop at 3 hours or less to stretch our legs and get fuel, makes the planning easier fuel wise and keeps everyone happy. If by myself, I will fly 5 hours and weight is not an issue. This is going to be a consideration in any airplane from single to cabin class piston twin (421 is considered a cabin class twin).

The 421 is a dream to fly and ride in. Engines must be managed, but they are not a problem if you are properly trained. I am relatively low time 700 tt with 200 multi which includes almost 100 in the 421 (rest in a 310). I have just now reached the point in the 421 that I am super comfortable and stay well ahead of the plane.

Insurance, hanger costs and maintenance jump considerably moving from a 310/Barron to a pressurized cabin class twin. My advice would be to look at the Barron/310 and plan a fuel stop, however my 310 has six seat and the useful load to fill them, the back two seats are not comfortable for an adult, one maybe that can turn sideways, but two would not sit back there for 4 hours even if you could carry the fuel.

The c models are golden but pricey. B is doable. I'd have around 150k in payments if I went top end of the B's. What's the cabin like?

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

421 market looks like it has been a little soft lately (haven't paid any attention the last few months). No telling what the market will do 6 years from now, I think the market was at an all time high in 2008 then went in the tank and may be at an all time high again at lease for piston singles. Sold my 182Q last year and was really pleased with what I got, I bet it is worth 20% more today.

How hard would it be to retrofit the known ice technology?

 

[jonvcaples]

Close but no cigar. There is no requirement to have a pressurized cabin above 18,000 feet. There are many turbo or supercharged equipped air frames that will operate above that altitude. Where life gets interesting is making the trade offs between capability (speed climb etc), comfort (mask, nasal canula, vs shirt sleeve environment) and cost to purchase, maintain, and operate. Consider the C-210 available in normal piston, turbo/super charged engine, and full blown pressurized models. The full blown pressurized airplane is a tremendous machine...as are the bills! The none pressurized hull with a turbo or supercharged engine will still get you up to around FL200 (20,0000 ft) or so. But now you need masks, oxygen bottles etc. Less bucks, more hassle.

There is also the TC-182 a C-182 with turbocharger but no pressurization. Ceiling is FL200 (if memory is correct been a long time and POH is not handy). Need masks, bottles or built in oxygen storage.

Turbine (jet or prop) powered aircraft are more forgiving to operate. Too high or fast pull the power back. With a piston engine you have to plan your descents and be careful not to shock cool or do other things that will greatly increase your mechanics checking account.

Like most things in life it boils down to how much bang for how many bucks/marks/pounds/euros.

Hope this helps!

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Also, good thing about living on base is that there is always an airfield or even a full airport if the base is bug enough. My instructor said that service members get a pretty good hangar price if the hangar on base. Next I just need to make friends with some airforce mechanics.

 

[James_Dean]

So I just looked at the 421's and have to say I am pleased with what I'm seeing. Its bigger than the Seneca by a little and has much better performance with the added pressurization bonus allowing flight above FL120. And I'm finding a lot of early 70's B models with fairly low hours and recent overhauls at around 170-250k.

That is going to be a $600/hr plane minimum. You're going to want to put on 100-150 hours/yr to maintain proficiency. Are you going to be able to handle a $60k - $100k per year operating budget?

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Close but no cigar. There is no requirement to have a pressurized cabin above 18,000 feet. There are many turbo or supercharged equipped air frames that will operate above that altitude. Where life gets interesting is making the trade offs between capability (speed climb etc), comfort (mask, nasal canula, vs shirt sleeve environment) and cost to purchase, maintain, and operate. Consider the C-210 available in normal piston, turbo/super charged engine, and full blown pressurized models. The full blown pressurized airplane is a tremendous machine...as are the bills! The none pressurized hull with a turbo or supercharged engine will still get you up to around FL200 (20,0000 ft) or so. But now you need masks, oxygen bottles etc. Less bucks, more hassle.

There is also the TC-182 a C-182 with turbocharger but no pressurization. Ceiling is FL200 (if memory is correct been a long time and POH is not handy). Need masks, bottles or built in oxygen storage.

Turbine (jet or prop) powered aircraft are more forgiving to operate. Too high or fast pull the power back. With a piston engine you have to plan your descents and be careful not to shock cool or do other things that will greatly increase your mechanics checking account.

Like most things in life it boils down to how much bang for how many bucks/marks/pounds/euros.

Hope this helps!

Yes thanks for the reply. I'm looking to probably start out on turboprops and move my way into to multi engine pistons before I buy. I want to be comfortable and solo flight capable before I buy something that big.

 

[Topper]

I think the cabins are all the same. You can add ice protection, but I don't think there is anyway it will be "known ice". My 310 is not know ice but has factory boots and alcohol windshield and prop boots. I am comfortable if I get into ice that I can get out with the equipment I have, however there is some debate about what is considered known icing conditions. There are times I fly in areas that some might argue are know icing conditions and I might argue are not, the problem is if the FAA ever disagrees I might have problems that I would not have if my plane was known ice certified.

 

[jonvcaples]

Re query about adding known icing capability as the old saying goes if you have to ask the price first you probably can't afford it! Assuming that it is available at all of course.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

That is going to be a $600/hr plane minimum. You're going to want to put on 100-150 hours/yr to maintain proficiency. Are you going to be able to handle a $60k - $100k per year operating budget?

Still working on the specifics with money for operating costs but that may be a problem. What makes it a 600/hr plane. Is that just in fuel usage? If that's the case I may be better of staying around FL120 with an unpressurized Seneca.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Re query about adding known icing capability as the old saying goes if you have to ask the price first you probably can't afford it! Assuming that it is available at all of course.

Fair point.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Just looked at the op costs for some models of the 421. Some of the newer more fancy ones seem to be pushing 600/hr but the older models seem to indicate around $1.55 per nmi. So, on a 1200 nmi round trip I'm basically paying for a plane ticket: $1900.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Topper, what's the op cost per hour kn your 421 if u don't mind me asking.

 

[jonvcaples]

You are probably going to be much safer in a Caravan or something along that line. Look around, how many big piston engine airplanes are still in production? Virtually none because the turboprop is much better for the mission profile you describe.

When you step up into this world you have to bring your A+ game. 3 touch and goes every 90 days isn't going to cut it. Every 2 years with your CFI buddy ain't going to cut it. How much time and budget do you have for recurrent training. What is insurance going to require. Remember the 3 key questions! 1-Is it legal 2-Does it make sense 3-Is it safe Just because you are legal does not mean you are safe.

Gotta run hope this helps

 

[Topper]

That is going to be a $600/hr plane minimum. You're going to want to put on 100-150 hours/yr to maintain proficiency. Are you going to be able to handle a $60k - $100k per year operating budget?

I agree, might end up a 550.00 and hour, will depend on how much you fly. 1st year ownership will be higher.

 

[Topper]

You are probably going to be much safer in a Caravan or something along that line. Look around, how many big piston engine airplanes are still in production? Virtually none because the turboprop is much better for the mission profile you describe.

When you step up into this world you have to bring your A+ game. 3 touch and goes every 90 days isn't going to cut it. Every 2 years with your CFI buddy ain't going to cut it. How much time and budget do you have for recurrent training. What is insurance going to require. Remember the 3 key questions! 1-Is it legal 2-Does it make sense 3-Is it safe Just because you are legal does not mean you are safe.

Gotta run hope this helps

Good point, generally when you get into high performance and pressurized you end up with initial and recurrent training. I think initial in a 421 is 3k and recurrent will be close to 2k plus the cost of flying the plane.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Just looked at some other threads about the 421's. Are parts and maintinence an issue? Also the thread said that 40 gallons per hour was really high for fuel burn.

 

[James_Dean]

Just looked at the op costs for some models of the 421. Some of the newer more fancy ones seem to be pushing 600/hr but the older models seem to indicate around $1.55 per nmi. So, on a 1200 nmi round trip I'm basically paying for a plane ticket: $1900.

I wish you the best of luck, but i doubt you will find one person who has actually owned a 40 year old turbocharged pressurized twin that will agree that you can run one for $350/hr for 100 hrs/yr. There are people who have owned 421's who have spent that on one annual inspection.


1200 miles/ 200 knots = 6 hours of flying
6 * 45 gallons per hour * $5/gallon = $1,350 just for the fuel.

You haven't paid for insurance, hangar, maintenance, or engine/prop reserves.

BWTHDIK, I've only owned two twin cessnas. YMMV.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

So a turboprop? What kind of range can I get out of one and will it have the capacity for around 4 passengers plus me and luggage?

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

I wish you the best of luck, but i doubt you will find one person who has actually owned a 40 year old turbocharged pressurized twin that will agree that you can run one for $350/hr for 100 hrs/yr. There are people who have owned 421's who have spent that on one annual inspection.


1200 miles/ 200 knots = 6 hours of flying
6 * 45 gallons per hour * $5/gallon = $1,350 just for the fuel.

You haven't paid for insurance, hangar, maintenance, or engine/prop reserves.

BWTHDIK, I've only owned two twin cessnas. YMMV.

Perhaps I am better off to go with something else then. Back to the drawing board! I will find that goldilox model eventually.

 

[PVT Dane Potter]

Good point, generally when you get into high performance and pressurized you end up with initial and recurrent training. I think initial in a 421 is 3k and recurrent will be close to 2k plus the cost of flying the plane.

Eeek. Good thing is whatever I decide to buy will definitely get regular use. Does recurrent training have to be done with an instructor or is it based on whether you have an appropriate amount of hours in thaat year