Looking for CFI advice

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C310_Dreamer

Filing Flight Plan
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C310_Dreamer
Hi all! New to the board in hopes of getting some sage advice for an issue I'm having with my CFI. Sorry for the lengthy post.

Background: Got my Private certification last summer, have been in Instrument training since last fall. Same CFI for both processes.

My CFI overall is good, knows his stuff, and genuinely cares for my training. When we get along, things are great. But sometimes he has a bit of a temper and short fuse for patience and it impacts me. He also has a "tough love" style which doesn't always resonate with me. Here are some examples:

Not long after I got my PPL I "forgot how to land," which I understand is not uncommon. Rather than working with me and helping me regain my footing, each crummy landing resulted in yelling, angry comments. "Flat!" "Side-loading!" "Why do you keep side-loading the plane?" Like, dude.. I am not intentionally side-loading the plane. I need to understand what I'm doing to cause it and how to fix it.. geez.

One time more recently, I got a random gust while flaring and it brought my nose down a bit, causing a flat landing. His response was "Why did you bring the nose down?? F**king hell!!" Aside from being cursed at, I was upset that my intelligence was questioned, like I would intentionally nose down that close to the ground. Come on.

Currently I am still getting the hang of talking to ATC on instrument flights. Our recent flight, my long instrument XC, included plenty of frustration on his part when I asked him for help deciphering ATC's messages. Again, I understand this to be perfectly normal. I'm not sure why his default is frustration versus helping.

So here are my questions to you all:
01) These things I struggle with in my examples, they are normal, right? Because there are times I feel like a crappy pilot and it either makes me afraid to fly or takes the joy out of it altogether.

02) Am I being unreasonable in any way here? I mean, I do not need to be babied, but am I asking for anything unreasonable here in how I'm taught/treated?

03) How should I handle this internally to (a) bolster my own self-confidence, and (b) maintain my joy of flying and learning?

I have reason to believe he'll be moving on soon, and like I said before when things are going well I truly like the guy a lot. That being said, I am absolutely not interested in reporting him or anything like that which would ruin his life/career. I also do not think it would be good to ask for a new CFI at this stage of the training (I just need to finish my exam and check ride). I need to generate my own motivation here from within. Sorry again for the lengthy post. So have any of you been in similar situations and how did you handle it?

Thanks for reading and understanding. :)
 
Each CFI has their own style. Sometimes it meshes with the learner. Sometimes it does not. Even more so, as you learn more, you may not mesh with that same CFI's style.

I try to adapt my style depending on the knowledge level of the student. When I am doing advanced recurrent instruction on instruments I am a little more direct than when I am talking a guy through his first landing.

I would look for a new CFI. They work for you.
 
k9medic said:
Each CFI has their own style. Sometimes it meshes with the learner. Sometimes it does not. Even more so, as you learn more, you may not mesh with that same CFI's style.

I try to adapt my style depending on the knowledge level of the student. When I am doing advanced recurrent instruction on instruments I am a little more direct than when I am talking a guy through his first landing.

I would look for a new CFI. They work for you.
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Well, I will say this.. when I'm done with instrument training I am done with training for a while. Having to go to the airport all the time, having to follow a lesson plan, being told what to do, and the ever-present potential of being judged... it's all so tiring. I get joy when I take friends/family up for a quick trip to get XC time. Eventually I want to run a small charter service, which means commercial and multi-engine.. but there is no chance in hell I'm beginning those processes any time soon. I need to have a more solid self-confidence before I start putting myself through this torture again.
 
C310_Dreamer said:
Well, I will say this.. when I'm done with instrument training I am done with training for a while. Having to go to the airport all the time, having to follow a lesson plan, being told what to do, and the ever-present potential of being judged... it's all so tiring. I get joy when I take friends/family up for a quick trip to get XC time. Eventually I want to run a small charter service, which means commercial and multi-engine.. but there is no chance in hell I'm beginning those processes any time soon. I need to have a more solid self-confidence before I start putting myself through this torture again.
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IR is the least fun training there is, at least for me if was. Don't let it put you off. Commercial is easier not to mention more fun. So is multiengine.
 
C310_Dreamer said:
Well, I will say this.. when I'm done with instrument training I am done with training for a while. Having to go to the airport all the time, having to follow a lesson plan, being told what to do, and the ever-present potential of being judged... it's all so tiring. I get joy when I take friends/family up for a quick trip to get XC time. Eventually I want to run a small charter service, which means commercial and multi-engine.. but there is no chance in hell I'm beginning those processes any time soon. I need to have a more solid self-confidence before I start putting myself through this torture again.
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I hate replies to threads that say "dump the CFI," but I have to agree with @k9medic. We all have different learning styles and different teaching styles. The effective learning environment is one where the two mesh and the very worst is when the widely diverge. And the very best CFIs are those who adapt their teaching style to the trainee, not the other way around. And sometimes the initiative for a change comes from the CFI, not the student.

There's no downside to looking. You are not insulting your current instructor by looking at others. If you are, we'll, too bad, so sad.
 
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The only reason a instructor should yell is "MY CONTROLS". Or ''LET GO OF THE CONTROLS'' and possibly ''EJECT''.

First of all cursing has no place in a professional environment.

C310_Dreamer said:
He also has a "tough love" style which doesn't always resonate with me
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A good instructor will adapt his/her teaching style to match the learning style of the individual student.

No, you are not being unreasonable. It is not too late to tell him that yelling and cursing is not working for you. If a calm and gentle voice works for you, let him know. It would not hurt to schedule one flight with a different instructor. And that should not bother your current instructor. If it does, then there is a problem.

I will tell ya, instrument training was the most stressful for me as a student. Commercial was the most fun.

And for me, my landings were not really consistent until I started instructing.
 
1) Yes, normal.

2) No, not unreasonable.

3) I think you may have answered your own question here:
C310_Dreamer said:
I get joy when I take friends/family up for a quick trip to get XC time.
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Listen to thyself.
Take a break.
Go find the joy.
Have an adventure...
 
Related…..The CFII kept making me do Plan A/Plan B over and over and….with zero explanation what I was doing wrong. I let this go on for 2 lessons then fired the CFII. Turns out the owner and the CFII kept in touch and the CFII kept reporting was doing fine. Then fired the school because the owner never bothered to talk to me about my progress.

Down side of being a professional teacher these days (college) I pay attention to my students progress, I keep my students informed all the time and if they’re having problems, it’s office hours, appointments, tutors, I’ve even run zoom sessions on Sunday evenings for extra help.

Back the aviation….
That was 4 or 5 years ago. Then Covid, new job, and the 3 instructors in the area I really like either retired or moved. Guess it’s time to start over this summer.

When a CFI has what I consider unacceptable behavior, that’s the end of the lesson. Yes, instrument is a grind, and for me, not much fun. I don’t need someone deliberately making it worse. But I have the advantage that the Denver area has lots of instructors…
 
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C310_Dreamer said:
… When we get along, things are great. But sometimes he has a bit of a temper and short fuse for patience and it impacts me. He also has a "tough love" style which doesn't always resonate with me...
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I would question your ADM allowing someone with a short temper into your airplane. Time to move on.
 
TCABM said:
I would question your ADM allowing someone with a short temper into your airplane. Time to move on.
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Oh believe me, there have been a few times I've been stupid close to laying down the law in my plane. Since I got certified I'm listed as the PIC after each Instrument lesson, and I think that means something.
 
C310_Dreamer said:
Oh believe me, there have been a few times I've been stupid close to laying down the law in my plane. Since I got certified I'm listed as the PIC after each Instrument lesson, and I think that means something.
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Whatever has prevented you from doing that is preventing you from being pilot in command.
 
I am loving these replies. I am feeling more motivated. I think a bit of a break is in order. I'll use that time to focus on the written exam. Glad to hear others are saying Instrument training is a drag. I mean, it's interesting in its own way, and it is true that doing this makes me feel like more of a pilot. But all the ins and outs... yowza. And the added stress of the CFI dynamic only makes that worse.

I really appreciate you all.. Feel free to keep chiming in, I'll take all the wisdom I can get.

This is a great community!
 
If you let people treat you like that, some people will treat you like that. Personally I’d have a conniption, right there and then.

Since he got you through ppl I’d give him one more chance. But that’s up to you. I wouldn’t stop training myself.
 
I just started teaching my 18 year old to fly.

The very first lesson, I briefed him that “dad” is a lot different in process than “instructor dad.” IP Dad does not yell or get excited in an aircraft. There is no place for it. Learning to fly can be exciting enough.

I told him my first priority is to protect myself. My second priority is to protect the aircraft. By virtue of those two things, he would be protected. I challenged him that I would allow him to scare himself to the point he would not make the same mistakes, but I would not allow him to take the aircraft to such an extreme that I would no be able to recover. He would learn and I would explain what happened and why.

I have a couple thousands of hours of instruction under my belt and many more hours in aircraft flying professionally. Sometimes CFI’s just trod along to build their time to move on.
 
As a CFI I get tired of repeating the same things to the same person. So not knowing what is going on in that cockpit from both sides of the story, it’s hard to say how to fix the problem. But he does sound me when I have said for the minllionth time to add rudder, do the wing, pull back more for the flare.
 
You aren’t going to like my advice, but to fly an airplane under instruments, you have to be able to fly the airplane pretty well visually. Unfortunately you started instrument training when you could not demonstrate student pilot solo proficiency, which at the very minimum does require remembering how to land.

When an instructor accepts an instrument student, even immediately after the private practical test, the syllabus assumes the student possess private pilot proficiency. It’s terribly frustrating as an instructor to have a student for an advanced rating with the proficiency level you brought to the training.

The CFI is totally incorrect to be yelling and degrading you about this. The proper action after your deficiencies were so apparent was to suspend the instrument training a provide some remedial training on the landings and other areas you are deficient.
 
1) totally normal

2) not unreasonable at all

3) Take a short break. If you hit a learning plateau having a bad instructor can make it that much worse and zap the fun out of it.


It's crazy for me to think that there are people who use vulgarisms in a professional setting!


By the way I can relate on the landings, I decided this year I would get my commercial and CFI. Comm was fine, nail the manuevers, oral was basically a more in-depth PPL oral

CFI is kicking my @$$. Side loading the landings and struggling with the required endorsements for all sorts of weird scenarios "what endorsements does a commercial hot air balloon pilot need to get their ASEL?" .. I've got the standard zero time to private pilot down stuff well and that makes sense because I was able to structure it into phases in my head. But all these other weird scenarios I just can't get it straight

It can be discouraging, so I get it!

PS - IR is the most exhausting rating in my opinion, multi was a lot of fun I really enjoyed that. CFI is both fun, and hard. Certainly different!
 
Keep practicing bro, you’ll get it. One day it all will click and you will be like that Reeves feller in the Matrix. The world will slow down and every landing will be perfect. Well maybe not that, but yea keep practicing.
 
He should not be yelling at you unless there is a serious safety situation happening that requires immediate response.

You might try flying with another CFII once. I found getting my IR to be the most fun and teaching it is the most fun as an instructor too.

I have one really sharp student a little more than halfway through his IR. We do flights together where I play ATC and give him all kinds of crazy instructions: ad-hoc holds, then depart along a DME Arc while changing altitudes and then give him a a re-route "advise when ready to copy". The goal being to overwhelm him to the point he has to prioritize things and process a very high workload. I challenge him far more (I hope!) than the real IR environment ever will. We both have a good time with it. He doesn't always get everything right, but I have never yelled at him. I would expect a seriously negative response if I did.
 
Also something to note - and one thing that I did not appreciate until I was in that situation:

A CFI/CFII that has been there/ done that it a lot better than a CFI/CFII who is trying to get there. All the theory in the world cannot replace learning from somebody who has actually had to apply it in the real world.
 
DesertNomad said:
He should not be yelling at you unless there is a serious safety situation happening that requires immediate response.
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this one always gets me, and how quickly people jump to defend someone. Yelling at is a brad spectrum these days. I saw a student complain that his CFI yelled at him for not studying. Factual part of that story was the CFI said in a normal tone “This isn’t gonna work if you keep wasting my time”. So was the OP in thread yelled at like that, or was it yelling in a loud voice like they were 20 feet apart? So unless I witness “yelling”.
 
TommyG said:
this one always gets me, and how quickly people jump to defend someone. Yelling at is a brad spectrum these days. I saw a student complain that his CFI yelled at him for not studying. Factual part of that story was the CFI said in a normal tone “This isn’t gonna work if you keep wasting my time”. So was the OP in thread yelled at like that, or was it yelling in a loud voice like they were 20 feet apart? So unless I witness “yelling”.
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Yelling or not the use of any vulgarism or an obscenity I find patently unacceptable in a professional setting

Even said quietly "get in the f#ck!ng centerline" is unacceptable. Full stop.
 
k9medic said:
Admittingly, I have asked a professional pilot whom I was evaluating "are you going to correct this or just let it kill us?" Never felt the need to cuss.
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The best CFIs are the ones who can sit back, relaxed, while in a spin and calmly say to their student, "ok, what's your plan?". My CFI for PPL had near 20K hours and was as comfortable in the airplane as he was sitting at the kitchen table.
 
Tantalum said:
Yelling or not the use of any vulgarism or an obscenity I find patently unacceptable in a professional setting

Even said quietly "get in the f#ck!ng centerline" is unacceptable. Full stop.
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Guess you don’t a lot of pilots or people. The F bomb is as common as saying taco.
 
I always tell my students that I work for them, and they can fire me anytime they want for any reason. If your instructor makes you feel uncomfortable, and it CONTINUES, find another CFI.
 
TommyG said:
Guess you don’t a lot of pilots or people. The F bomb is as common as saying taco.
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It's one thing if you're with a group of your peers or kicking back beers after work, it's another if you're in a professional setting.

There's also a difference in "what the F is this guy doing with a strait in final?" vs swearing at your student. Maybe there are situations where the student and the instructor have that kind of rapport, that's fine I guess, in this situation with the OP it sounds like they do not
 
k9medic said:
Also something to note - and one thing that I did not appreciate until I was in that situation:

A CFI/CFII that has been there/ done that it a lot better than a CFI/CFII who is trying to get there. All the theory in the world cannot replace learning from somebody who has actually had to apply it in the real world.
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This is the main thing that has held me up on finishing my CFII, I just don't have enough experience in the system to be comfortable teaching someone else how to do it.
 
Tantalum said:
It's one thing if you're with a group of your peers or kicking back beers after work, it's another if you're in a professional setting.

There's also a difference in "what the F is this guy doing with a strait in final?" vs swearing at your student. Maybe there are situations where the student and the instructor have that kind of rapport, that's fine I guess, in this situation with the OP it sounds like they do not
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I had a couple of students I could cut up with like that, mostly military or former military, but then when it came time to be serious they knew it, too. I also don't know that I have ever cussed directly at a student in a demeaning fashion, either, and don't ever intend to.
 
If he’s getting toward his 1500, he’s probably stopped caring about retaining you.

Young instructors (time, not age) can be good most of the way because they are doing everything they can to grind it out, keep students, and get guys to the IFR so they can get more night and cross country time on the way to ATP mins.

But guys getting close to the end can start to develop a shorter fuse. Not all, but some if they are otherwise predisposed to be that way. Not excusing it, and you should get another instructor.

Switching instructors at the end of a rating is not a big deal. I did several guys where I flew a few times with them, signed them off, and they passed because the other guy went to the airlines or they came from another school out of town. As long as they are proficient, there’s no reason to bang out another 10 hours just because.
 
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