Looking for advise from experience CFI

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Willy

Filing Flight Plan
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Mitten
I got a student from another instructor, and I am relatively new as an instructor, but this student is pushing me to get his checkride schedule,(which I did) it’s on middle of December so it’s within about a month now, and so far i have not yet done anything ground with him, I been trying to, but he don’t like, he think he is good and ready and not looking to waste any more money on the ground with an instructor, it makes me so uncomfortable to sign him off now, the past experience with student that doesn’t want to spend money on ground with actual instructor didn’t went well on the oral, and I feel this cocky man going to end up the same, we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it, and to me I just want to do a ground with him to see where he is and see if there’s any area that he needs to study more, and he is giving me a feeling that he thinks when I ask him for ground I am trying to scam his money (so frustrating) any advise is appreciated☹️
 
Simply stated, you let the student push you into scheduling the test when you don’t believe the student has the required knowledge for the oral.

I would tell the student that and tell him if he isn’t prepared you will cancel the test date. Then tell him what he needs to study and monitor his progress with some oral questions post flight.

If he is unable to answer a question, simply tell him he is not ready. Make him find the answer and tell him you aren’t going to be in the test answer for him.
 
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Tell him it’s your record on the line. If you don’t feel he is ready, then don’t sign him off. If he doesn’t like it, then he can find another instructor. It’s really that simple.

There’s always another CFI for him and always another student for you. The circle of CFI life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Casually ask a few questions in the air covering the major topics. Personally, I think you can judge an applicants readiness without ground school. There’s plenty of “dead time” in the air, especially during cross countries, that should be filled with this type of instruction IMO, there shouldn’t be a need for “ground school” unless he’s not studying another way. He’s paying for your time in the air, if you aren’t teaching while in the air, then you are “scamming” him. And the most important part of teaching is knowing where the students knowledge and weaknesses are, so you should be constantly probing that. JMO
 
You need to make sure he is ready and do whatever training or checking is necessary to make sure you are convinced he is ready. You don’t need the student controlling this for you. He should work with you on this. If a student is strong arming you it’s not a good sign and is a behavior that is detrimental to their safety. Getting a “hand down” or “hand off” student doesn’t always turn out good.
 
If he thinks he’s ready but is not willing to take the time to demonstrate that to you as his instructor, terminate him as a student.
 
Willy said:
we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it
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Your answer is right there. Mock checkride. Oral and flight. If you are inexperienced, grab an experienced CFI to do it. Many CFIs have another do the mock ride anyway - second set of eyes. It even fits your student's desire for efficiency. If he's ready, he's ready. If he's not, it will show quickly.
 
Salty said:
Casually ask a few questions in the air covering the major topics. Personally, I think you can judge an applicants readiness without ground school. There’s plenty of “dead time” in the air, especially during cross countries, that should be filled with this type of instruction IMO, there shouldn’t be a need for “ground school” unless he’s not studying another way. He’s paying for your time in the air, if you aren’t teaching while in the air, then you are “scamming” him. And the most important part of teaching is knowing where the students knowledge and weaknesses are, so you should be constantly probing that. JMO
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I agree with using the dead time during a flight lesson to do quizzes on oral exam topics.

This technique has the bonus item of getting their brain focusing on more than one task: properly flying the airplane and properly answering the questions. And doing the latter purely by memory to boot.

If the student can answer the bulk of the ACS questions while flying, he or she is well on the way to being properly prepared for the exam.
 
Salty said:
there shouldn’t be a need for “ground school”
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There absolutely is a need. 91.107 (a) says in part, "...must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor"
 
Salty said:
Why did you ignore the second half of the sentence?
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"unless" doesn't matter. Ground training must be conducted. Period.

And if it's not logged, it didn't happen.
 
Willy said:
I got a student from another instructor, and I am relatively new as an instructor, but this student is pushing me to get his checkride schedule,(which I did) it’s on middle of December so it’s within about a month now, and so far i have not yet done anything ground with him, I been trying to, but he don’t like, he think he is good and ready and not looking to waste any more money on the ground with an instructor, it makes me so uncomfortable to sign him off now, the past experience with student that doesn’t want to spend money on ground with actual instructor didn’t went well on the oral, and I feel this cocky man going to end up the same, we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it, and to me I just want to do a ground with him to see where he is and see if there’s any area that he needs to study more, and he is giving me a feeling that he thinks when I ask him for ground I am trying to scam his money (so frustrating) any advise is appreciated☹️
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What was his written test score?

I'll take a different view on this topic. When I was a student pilot, I did all the studying on my own. I don't mean to get cocky, but the average CFI rarely taught me ground knowldge material that I didn't already know. Many times I had to sit through incorrect information or scientifically flawed explanations but I kept my mouth shut just to avoid embarrasing the CFI. My written test scores were near 100%. If I already knew that my CFI was not upto snuff on ground knowledge, I would be very reluctant to pay him for ground instruction time. I am not saying that is the case here, but it is a possibility. His written test score should shed some light.
 
Walboy said:
"unless" doesn't matter. Ground training must be conducted. Period.

And if it's not logged, it didn't happen.
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It doesn’t have to be provided by the OP, or the same instructor providing flight lessons. So yeah, unless matters.
 
Schedule a "phase check" with an experienced CFI, and let her/him determine the student's readiness

Don't let this student roll over you
 
MauleSkinner said:
Based on the way most people around here treat the knowledge test (Shepherd or some equivalent, and call it good), I’d say that a written test score means next to nothing with regard to oral prep.
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Knowledge test result is just one piece of information. It is not a total indicator of skill. But it is still an indicator.

While I agree that written test does not imply knowledge, the opposite is not true - ie it is not highly likely for someone with a lot of knowledge to do poorly on the test.
 
Just tell the guy he’s going to need to find another instructor as you don’t think you guys are a good match.

Ya got the right to refuse service, exercise it if dont feel good working with the guy.
 
One thing I learned in the 12 months, 1000 hrs of instructing was to not let a student dictate training. I had a few pushy ones and when we didn’t do my syllabus I was left feeling like they weren’t properly trained and/or we were being as financially efficient as we could have been. The student is not a CFI, and he doesn’t fully understand what he needs.

the tricky ones are like in your case who show up from somewhere else and want to get a quick sign-off, and you have no clue where they are. Really, a mock oral and flight is the only way. That will identify what needs work. I personally would only sign off someone like that if they aced the mock checkride.

luckily in my case, these trouble students never actually made it to checkride and I didn’t have to sign them. Some people just can’t get their stuff together and punch it across the goal line.
 
F' him. You are an instructor, he needs your signature, don't sign him off for the check ride until you are sure he is ready. Being confident is good, but make him prove he is ready. Who cares what he thinks, tell him that is what it takes for you to approve him.
 
***Disclaimer: not a CFI, just a student who never had dedicated "ground" time with an instructor because I'd proved I could and did learn it all on my own****

Schedule a mock checkride, now. Make him prove he's ready for the oral. Give him the toughest grilling you can, and if you're not confident, ask an older CFI to do that and sit in on it. He might surprise you, or you might have called it as to his prep level. It will make it brutally clear to him and you just where he's at. And it's obviously checkride prep so he shouldn't balk you on it.
 
Willy said:
I got a student from another instructor, and I am relatively new as an instructor, but this student is pushing me to get his checkride schedule,(which I did) it’s on middle of December so it’s within about a month now, and so far i have not yet done anything ground with him, I been trying to, but he don’t like, he think he is good and ready and not looking to waste any more money on the ground with an instructor, it makes me so uncomfortable to sign him off now, the past experience with student that doesn’t want to spend money on ground with actual instructor didn’t went well on the oral, and I feel this cocky man going to end up the same, we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it, and to me I just want to do a ground with him to see where he is and see if there’s any area that he needs to study more, and he is giving me a feeling that he thinks when I ask him for ground I am trying to scam his money (so frustrating) any advise is appreciated☹️
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Why did he come to you?

The tough part is every time I changed instructors it set me back a little. The new instructor had to fly with me to see how far along I was and that takes extra time and money. Not your fault, his fault most likely?

Are you able to talk with his old instructor to find more out about him? Good luck.
 
sarangan said:
What was his written test score?

I'll take a different view on this topic. When I was a student pilot, I did all the studying on my own. I don't mean to get cocky, but the average CFI rarely taught me ground knowldge material that I didn't already know. Many times I had to sit through incorrect information or scientifically flawed explanations but I kept my mouth shut just to avoid embarrasing the CFI. My written test scores were near 100%. If I already knew that my CFI was not upto snuff on ground knowledge, I would be very reluctant to pay him for ground instruction time. I am not saying that is the case here, but it is a possibility. His written test score should shed some light.
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Nothing cocky about that post. I was the same way. However there is still a requirement to log the required ground training. How that happens is up to the student / instructor. I never resented my instructors efforts to verify my knowledge prior to a checking event they were endorsing me to sit on. Based on the original post I don’t think this student is what we were…
 
Wondering from your post if English is your second language and your students concern is more related to your communication ability? Serious question, not a dig....
 
Lndwarrior said:
Wondering from your post if English is your second language and your students concern is more related to your communication ability? Serious question, not a dig....
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I had similar questions when reading his post.

I agree with what is being said i.e. the instructor makes the call for when the student gets the sign off. Period.

But another point that some will balk at is this silly notion that we tell people; "you can be anything you want!" It's simply not true. While there are many things a person can achieve through study, hard work, and perseverance, not everyone is gifted to acquire everything they ever sought after.

Just yesterday a man walked into the hangar and announced that he was giving up on his dream of learning to fly. I was sad for him yet glad for him as he is a very anti-authority type that was looking to buy his way into a certificate.

I had several heart to heart talks with him and finally had to make him understand that I would not stand by and watch him fly illegally, especially if he attempted to take innocent/unknowing passengers with him. He refused to take on an instructor, have his plane properly signed off, etc.

I even went so far as to tell him that if he wanted to fly a single seat ultralight and kill himself that this was his business. Told him the FAA sees suicide as legal but not homicide. (Not really but you get the point). He said that there were just too many rules and regulations for him and he was selling what he had and going back to fishing.

I did welcome him to come and take a ride with me whenever he was in the neighborhood. o_O
 
The knowledge test is not the oral. The knowledge test is a bunch of multiple choice questions. The oral is supposed to be scenario based which can cover a lot of ground and still be within the ACS. I tell potential students there will be ground school when they first come to me. I would recommend a mock oral based on a cross country flight which you assign. Many/most DPEs use such a method. I would be really, really surprised if you couldn't take it into areas the student proves to be weak in. Good students should value your ground school.
 
What did the "referring instructor" have to say about this student's readiness for checkride? Or did he toss this student at you like a hot potato and run out the back door? That tells me a lot about this student if so :D

Mock checkride would be a good starting place based on the student's assertion and if there is no other input from the other CFI. That will include a ground session and it will need to be paid for.

He sounds like a bully. I'd drop him like third-period french class, but I have that luxury. If you need the hours or the cash, or you're at an FBO where you're expected to get the meter running on this guy, I'd probably cook up a plan of action you can both agree upon -- but he can't honestly expect to get from here to checkride with zero ground instruction, even as an evaluation of oral-exam preparedness, and you may need to reset his expectations.

Good luck :)
 
Daleandee said:
I had similar questions when reading his post.

I agree with what is being said i.e. the instructor makes the call for when the student gets the sign off. Period.

But another point that some will balk at is this silly notion that we tell people; "you can be anything you want!" It's simply not true. While there are many things a person can achieve through study, hard work, and perseverance, not everyone is gifted to acquire everything they ever sought after.

Just yesterday a man walked into the hangar and announced that he was giving up on his dream of learning to fly. I was sad for him yet glad for him as he is a very anti-authority type that was looking to buy his way into a certificate.

I had several heart to heart talks with him and finally had to make him understand that I would not stand by and watch him fly illegally, especially if he attempted to take innocent/unknowing passengers with him. He refused to take on an instructor, have his plane properly signed off, etc.

I even went so far as to tell him that if he wanted to fly a single seat ultralight and kill himself that this was his business. Told him the FAA sees suicide as legal but not homicide. (Not really but you get the point). He said that there were just too many rules and regulations for him and he was selling what he had and going back to fishing.

I did welcome him to come and take a ride with me whenever he was in the neighborhood. o_O
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Personally, I do believe in "you can be anything you want", at least for 99% of the population. I have rarely come across a person who was not cut out for the task. There is a difference between unable and unwilling. Gifted simply means that they are wired in a way that makes certain tasks easier for them. One does not need to be gifted in order to become good at something. The person you describe is a good example. Based on your description it sounds like he is not gifted. Perhaps it is best that he hangs up his hat, but not because he is unable, but he is unwilling.
 
I'm not a CFI...but suggest that you just make it clear to him that you can't and won't sign him off for the check unless you know he's ready for it. It's as simple as that...and really the ball is in his court to play along with whatever way is necessary for you to evaluate it.
Paying for a lesson is not always about knowledge going from the teacher to the student....
I do however tend to agree with the earlier suggestion that you should be able to at least have a pretty good feel for the situation based on discussions and questions while flying...in the air or while taxiing, etc....
and yeah...this situation really has me wondering how this student came to you so late in the training....
 
Walboy said:
"unless" doesn't matter. Ground training must be conducted. Period.

And if it's not logged, it didn't happen.
Click to expand...

Every flight starts and ends with a ground briefing. That is ground training.
 
sarangan said:
Personally, I do believe in "you can be anything you want", at least for 99% of the population. I have rarely come across a person who was not cut out for the task. There is a difference between unable and unwilling. Gifted simply means that they are wired in a way that makes certain tasks easier for them. One does not need to be gifted in order to become good at something. The person you describe is a good example. Based on your description it sounds like he is not gifted. Perhaps it is best that he hangs up his hat, but not because he is unable, but he is unwilling.
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Key is they have to want to be good at it. Too many pilots strive for mediocrity.
 
sarangan said:
Every flight starts and ends with a ground briefing. That is ground training.
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No disagreement.

Some people use "ground school" and "ground training" interchangeably. I agree, one does not have to attend a formal ground school to satisfy 91.107 (a) ground training requirements.
 
sarangan said:
Personally, I do believe in "you can be anything you want", at least for 99% of the population.

Perhaps it is best that he hangs up his hat, but not because he is unable, but he is unwilling.
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I don't believe that anyone can be anything they desire. That's really a simple truth and one that many must discover for themselves. As an example, a family member has desired for most of their life to be a singer. It's obvious that they do not possess the ability to hear that they are not anywhere near the key or the melody of the song i.e. they have a "tin ear."

There are some with limits on cognitive ability or other things that cause hinderance (bipolar for example) and these also make them unable. Unwillingness causes a lot of failures but I believe there are people failing because they have a desire to do it but not the ability to do it.

Wanting to be an astronaut is a wonderful dream but many can't be because they do not have the physical, mental, and emotional abilities (stamina) that is required.

So, I stand by my statement that it is silly to make people believe that you can be anything you want to be. Some are just not going to make it. I would never suggest that we don't encourage people to strive for what they want to be but there are times when they have to face the music whether they have a tin ear or not (pun intended).
 
Willy said:
I got a student from another instructor, and I am relatively new as an instructor, but this student is pushing me to get his checkride schedule,(which I did) it’s on middle of December so it’s within about a month now, and so far i have not yet done anything ground with him, I been trying to, but he don’t like, he think he is good and ready and not looking to waste any more money on the ground with an instructor, it makes me so uncomfortable to sign him off now, the past experience with student that doesn’t want to spend money on ground with actual instructor didn’t went well on the oral, and I feel this cocky man going to end up the same, we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it, and to me I just want to do a ground with him to see where he is and see if there’s any area that he needs to study more, and he is giving me a feeling that he thinks when I ask him for ground I am trying to scam his money (so frustrating) any advise is appreciated☹️
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If you're not comfortable with his flying, his lack of cooperation in meeting your reasonable standards...it's YOUR certificate he (or she) is flying under, and you have the responsibility, acting aligned with the regs, of maintaining compliance with said regulations. Yes, you''re providing a service as a professional CFI, but, you are also acting under the authority of the FAA administrator, who has statuatory authority to make the rules.

I've shut down students until they proved they were doing BOTH parts of the curriculum. Yeah, flying is fun, but you need to hit the books. And hit them hard. The two are not mutually exclusive. I was (am) lucky in that working for an established school, when the student ran home to mommy and complained that his meanie instructor was shutting down his flying until and unless he completed x sections and quizzes in the Jeppesen pvt manual as per the syllabus that was provided and agreed to when they signed up...the owner just said "he holds a certificate from the government that says he can...and if your son doesn't want to follow the rules and requirements of the school, he (and you) are free to take your business elsewhere". They did...but from what I hear, never completed.

It's your signature on the form at the end. Ask yourself: 'Yould I feel comfortable letting this candidate take my family for a ride as the pilot in command of an airplane". If it's no, for whatever reason, don't be coerced into putting your signature on that form.
 
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Willy said:
I got a student from another instructor, and I am relatively new as an instructor, but this student is pushing me to get his checkride schedule,(which I did) it’s on middle of December so it’s within about a month now, and so far i have not yet done anything ground with him, I been trying to, but he don’t like, he think he is good and ready and not looking to waste any more money on the ground with an instructor, it makes me so uncomfortable to sign him off now, the past experience with student that doesn’t want to spend money on ground with actual instructor didn’t went well on the oral, and I feel this cocky man going to end up the same, we will eventually do a mock oral but it going to be frustrated for both me and him to find out that he is not ready for it, and to me I just want to do a ground with him to see where he is and see if there’s any area that he needs to study more, and he is giving me a feeling that he thinks when I ask him for ground I am trying to scam his money (so frustrating) any advise is appreciated☹️
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I'm not a CFI, I am a student. However, I am a professional teacher so I know something about teaching. I am going to look at this from the student's point of view, because I am in a similar situation. If the student is taking lessons from a flight school that has multiple instructors, and he is being forced to change instructors periodically, and each instructor requires him to prove proficiency before advancing, he is going to get really frustrated really fast. After every lesson, I ask myself "what did I learn today". If I can't answer that question, then I feel the instructor isn't doing their job and I start thinking "what a waste of time and money". This student may be trying to take command of the process because it may not appear like the instructors are controlling the process. Learn who your student is, their goals, their learning style, and adapt to them. And commit to your student that you are there with them, that you will guide them through the process to the end and will make sure they get there.
 
RRAT said:
I'm not a CFI, I am a student. However, I am a professional teacher so I know something about teaching. I am going to look at this from the student's point of view, because I am in a similar situation. If the student is taking lessons from a flight school that has multiple instructors, and he is being forced to change instructors periodically, and each instructor requires him to prove proficiency before advancing, he is going to get really frustrated really fast. After every lesson, I ask myself "what did I learn today". If I can't answer that question, then I feel the instructor isn't doing their job and I start thinking "what a waste of time and money". This student may be trying to take command of the process because it may not appear like the instructors are controlling the process. Learn who your student is, their goals, their learning style, and adapt to them. And commit to your student that you are there with them, that you will guide them through the process to the end and will make sure they get there.
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You’re going to make a great CFI, if that is your goal.
 
Why is it so late in the game and you haven’t done any ground with him?

But it’s your sign off, if you don’t feel good signing him off, don’t. The student doesn’t dictate when his sign off is. I have signed off a student I knew wasn’t ready, but kept pushing. So I gladly signed him off, and as expected he did fail.
 
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