Looking for Advice! & a Quick Introduction

[Kellan Bradshaw]

Hi! My name is Kellan Bradshaw.

I'm a 22 year old student pilot in Chandler, AZ. I've been flying since I was 14 years old and have yet to achieve my PPL yet for various reasons. I'm looking for advice on getting started with training, mostly in regard to financing, as my first 8 years of flight training have been rather unconventional. I'll briefly explain so you have a decent idea as to where I'm coming from, and I'd really appreciate any sage wisdom from anyone on here willing to give it!

I started flying when I was 14 with an organization called Aviation Explorers -- a subsection of the Boy Scouts of America that offers career exploration opportunities to young aviation enthusiasts. Most of these groups don't do any flight training whatsoever, but the one I joined in Mesa is one of only a handful in the nation that is associated with a flying club that owns a plane and offers flight training. With all the instructors being purely volunteer and the whole thing being operated as a non-profit, training was extraordinarily cheap, only $75/flight hr when I first started. Anyone would jump at that opportunity! And I did...for a long while doing between 1 and 2 lessons a month (that's all we could afford at the time). But a mixture of being both young and immature and also not having a firm grasp on my aviation career goals at the time led to me burning out on multiple occasions. At 20 years old I decided that I was ready to get into it again with renewed determination and a goal to at least get my PPL. The Aviation Explorers group agreed to begin training with me again, and this time I was at it doing at least a lesson a week, sometimes two (again, it was all I could afford working as an Uber Eats driver at the time). During that time I achieved a total of over 40 hours in my logbook, I had studied hard, and was in the process of scheduling my written exam and check ride.

Then I turned 21, and a rule that hadn't been made clear to me stated that, due to being a part of the BSA, anyone over the age of 21 could not participate whatsoever. This was a huge blow as I was just about to finally get my PPL, and it once again set me back.

Fast forward to now...I'm 22 (23 in October), and I've made a full decision that I want to get my PPL no matter the cost. More than that, I want to go all the way: instrument, CFI, CFII, then build time and go to the regionals. I'm in the process now of researching flight schools (something I have next to no experience with) and trying to figure out how this can fit into my life at all. I know it's not too late...I've seen people start their aviation careers at 50! And all anyone wants to tell me is, "Boy do I wish I started at this when I was your age." But given that I've been at this since I was 14, it's hard to not feel like I missed the boat...especially given that now I work a full time job, have bills to pay, and a ton of extra cash is not easy to come by.

I'm looking for any advice anyone has on how I can get the cash going for this kind of thing. I've budgeted thoroughly, and I'm confident I'll be able to get through my PPL by the end of the year with fairly no difficulty. The plan is to do 2 lessons a week with a school near me (I know more than 2 is ideal, but I just can't afford more than that right now). But going beyond my PPL is where I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed as I know the prices just keep getting higher and higher as the training goes on.

Thank you to anyone willing to read my wall of text, and I'm extremely grateful for any wisdom you are willing to leave behind.

May God bless you,
Kellan Bradshaw

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

Hello and Good Luck in your Endeavors.

First, I suggest you read every post and every reply in the first two pages of the medical forums. If that is too much to read than that is also an indication that flying is too much work for you. lol. Really. Do that and then come back if you have any medical questions.

Second, you did not mention passing the written PPL, so I assume you have not done so. Take a PPL ground course. Everybody has their favorite. I like the King Schools. Whatever. Take a ground school. Complete it. Get the certificate. Take and pass the written PPL test.

Then continue on with flight lessons. I agree. Two lessons per week is the minimum to make progress. Less than that and you likely will have trouble moving forward.

Do not worry about what comes after PPL. Get PPL first. Deal with the after --- well --- after.

 

[Half Fast]

I'm looking for any advice anyone has on how I can get the cash going for this kind of thing.

That's quite challenging, but maybe you could get a job and spend less than you earn? The math is pretty simple.....

From the amount of flying you've already done, it shouldn't take much to finish off your PPL. Talk with the CFI you were using and see if he can work with you to finish, without going through BSA. He already knows what you need to work on, and having a consistent instructor will be more efficient.

It's not necessary to spend money on a ground school, if cash is tight. You already have the PHAK and AFH and FAR/AIM, right? Study on your own and begin taking practice tests (I used Sporty's "Study Buddy" practice test and it worked well). When you're consistently getting high scores, show them to your CFI and ask him to endorse you to take the written exam.

 

[Daleandee]

That's quite challenging, but maybe you could get a job and spend less than you earn? The math is pretty simple.....

I thought to suggest that too but the answer, at least to me, seemed obvious. Get a job (or maybe two) and don't spend what you don't have to. As Half Fast noted, with what you've been through there shouldn't be much more required to get where you want to go.

 

[SkyChaser]

First of all, forget what comes next. PPL is first. Focus on that, and finish that up. You can cross the bridge of Instrument/Comm/CFI when you get to them. Paying too much attention to the long game can be overwhelming, but you should treat this the same as eating an elephant - one bite at a time.

Second, you may end up having to take breaks between each rating to save up, but I would highly recommend the saving approach over the financing option. It may take you a year or two or three longer to achieve your goals, but you will not have any debt hanging over your head when you're ready to embark on your career. That will give you so much more freedom with the level of pay and types of jobs you can accept in the first few years of your career.

Besides getting a second job, every single cent beyond bare existence-level needs to go to flight training. No restaurants, no new toys, no bar nights or anything like that. If you're living in an apartment, figure out how to get a roommate to split rent with. If you have a car payment, get rid of it. If you're paying a lot for cell coverage, find a plan that costs less. It's not exactly a super-fun way to live, but it will get the job done much faster than if you spend a lot outside of flight lessons.

Also, do everything you can do to take advantage of free resources. The FAA provides all ground school material for free, if you're willing to put in the energy and time to wade through it and learn it. Find reputable youtube flying channels and try to learn as much as you can on your own. The less time the CFI has to spend teaching you, the less money you have to pay.

I would suggest making sure you can pass a first-class before you start, because that will determine if you're even able to reach your goal.

 

[kmacht]

Did you go to college and get a degree? Most airlines want a degree (doesn’t have to be in aviation) in addition to the ratings. I’m not a big proponent of taking on debt but maybe see what colleges are around that offer both the ratings and a degree. Embry Riddle is the big one but there are a number of smaller schools that offer similar programs. You wouldn’t be the first broke 20 something to want to go to college and there are all sorts of grants and loans available to make it happen. The down side is you will have a fairly large student loan debt when you finish and it will suck up a good chunk of your future paychecks for quite a while. You also need to make sure you are serious about it because if you take on all those student loans and don’t follow through by doing good in school, graduating, and getting a job you are still going to have to pay those loans back.

 

[mondtster]

I'm looking for any advice anyone has on how I can get the cash going for this kind of thing.

Depending on what you have nearby for airports and businesses on them, I'd suggest seeing if any of them have job opportunities available. I know that almost every airport operator around me could use some help and most will offer some kind of employee discount on services. Plus, being at the airport all the time nets some flying opportunities that other people often don't get.

I put in a lot of labor but paid very little money for many of the certificates and ratings I've earned.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

Thank you everyone for your quick input, it is greatly appreciated.

That's quite challenging, but maybe you could get a job and spend less than you earn? The math is pretty simple.....

I currently work two jobs (one part-time, one full-time) and take my budget extremely seriously. When I say I can't afford more than two flight hours a week right now, I mean that. Yes, there are other jobs out there that I could get, but without going into too much detail about exactly how much I'm making, it's sufficient to say that this is as good as it's going to get right now. I don't come from money, and this is all being paid for on my own dime.

If you're living in an apartment, figure out how to get a roommate to split rent with.

I live with two roommates and pretty much all of my expenses (insurance, phone plan, rent, gas) are as low as I can possibly get them right now.

To everyone suggesting that I take this one step at a time, I really appreciate that. It's really easy to get overwhelmed with how daunting the future can be, especially when you don't know exactly where the money is going to come from. I told my dad recently...if I was given ten years to do all of this, it wouldn't be an issue, the problem arises when trying to do everything in 2-3 years. And I'm realizing more and more here that I may need to be more realistic with myself on the timeframe. Somewhere less (much less) than 10 years but likely more than 3 is realistic, and that puts me at a pace that may actually be manageable.

Finally, this comment here:

Paying too much attention to the long game can be overwhelming, but you should treat this the same as eating an elephant - one bite at a time.

@SkyChaser, thank you for your comment, sir. This is something that my dad said to me just two days ago, almost word for word. I just about scoffed at him, but your comment reaffirming what he told me was very inspiring.

I'm currently researching independent CFI's in my area that are more affordable than the flight schools -- Weeding out the hour-building guys as best I can and trying to find someone who actually cares about instructing. So far I've got a few different people that seem promising. I'm more encouraged than I was a few days ago, thank you everyone!

 

[Clip4]

You are already too old to find grants and scholarships. Independent CFIs are not common. Honestly why should a CFI provide discount rates in this market?

Go to a university with an aviation program, get student loans and end up in a lot of debt or increase your income and save the money.

 

[Half Fast]

What was your major in college?

 

[murphey]

You are already too old to find grants and scholarships. Independent CFIs are not common. Honestly why should a CFI provide discount rates in this market?

Go to a university with an aviation program, get student loans and end up in a lot of debt or increase your income and save the money.

Wrong. There are many grants and scholarships for adults, just need to dig to find them. Not just aviation but college in general. Scholarships for school mean more money for flights.

[don’t start flaming] CAP. Depending on the squadrons in the area, once you have your PPL, you can work on the instrument thru CAP at substantially lower rates.

 

[dbahn]

I presume that you have already had a medical certificate. As mentioned earlier, look at the pitfalls many people your age have had to correct, some due to increased scrutiny on the part of the FAA towards existing medicals. Specifically, if you have EVER had drug or alcohol treatment or arrests, or EVER been put on medication for diagnoses like ADHD, etc., then those issues have a real chance of coming back to ground you and create such as expense to correct that you simply can't afford to continue. It's a common problem in aspiring pilots in your age ground, and it can be a big hurdle to clear.

Second, when the money dries up, much of the prior training is lost and needs to be repeated. The more money you can save and hold prior to resumption of training the less likely you are to get into that spiral.

 

[Pinecone]

[don’t start flaming] CAP. Depending on the squadrons in the area, once you have your PPL, you can work on the instrument thru CAP at substantially lower rates.

And get free flying time. Even as a VFR only pilot, without enough hours to do actual missions, you can get proficiency flights that are free to you.

 

[murphey]

And get free flying time. Even as a VFR only pilot, without enough hours to do actual missions, you can get proficiency flights that are free to you.

Some training is funded, other training flights are out of our pockets. Depends entirely on the wing budget.

 

[Clip4]

Wrong. There are many grants and scholarships for adults, just need to dig to find them. Not just aviation but college in general. Scholarships for school mean more money for flights.

[don’t start flaming] CAP. Depending on the squadrons in the area, once you have your PPL, you can work on the instrument thru CAP at substantially lower rates.

Flame off. Good luck with CAP as a meaningful solution to obtain advanced ratings, which is the topic of his post.

 

[Pinecone]

Some training is funded, other training flights are out of our pockets. Depends entirely on the wing budget.

True. But USAF funded numbers seem to be up.

As a new PP, you would be eligible for some on boarding flights, including your HP sign off (if in a 182 or 206). And some G1000 transiton flights. Your first Form 5 (CAP Check Ride) is supposed to be paid (aircraft only) by the candidate.

Then, once you are rated as a VFR pilot, recently, it has been no trouble to get at least one 1.5 hour proficiency flight per month, that if free to the pilot.

And you can fly the CAP plane for a hourly rate plus fuel. For the 182, that is $77 per hour plus fuel

 

[Pinecone]

Flame off. Good luck with CAP as a meaningful solution to obtain advanced ratings, which is the topic of his post.

It is a way to get some free hours or lower cost hours. Depending on the availability of instructors, you can do your advanced ratings. And AFAIK, CAP instructors do not charge, so lower cost per hour airplane, plus no cost instructor can save a LOT of money.

 

[Clip4]

It is a way to get some free hours or lower cost hours. Depending on the availability of instructors, you can do your advanced ratings. And AFAIK, CAP instructors do not charge, so lower cost per hour airplane, plus no cost instructor can save a LOT of money.

Most CAP units go begging for flight instructors and the CAP isn’t going to toss you the keys to the plane and a gas card to do advanced ratings. If they did the line would be out the door. So, good luck with that.

 

[murphey]

Most CAP units go begging for flight instructors and the CAP isn’t going to toss you the keys to the plane and a gas card to do advanced ratings. If they did the line would be out the door. So, good luck with that.

Nope - you need to pay for the airplane, which is considerably lower than any flight school. In exchange, you agree to contribute to the CAP program and the squadron in some meaningful way. Might be finance, might be safety, might be comm, etc. Worst that could happen? You visit a couple flying squadrons and decide it's not for you.

https://azwg.cap.gov/

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

You are already too old to find grants and scholarships. Independent CFIs are not common. Honestly why should a CFI provide discount rates in this market?

Go to a university with an aviation program, get student loans and end up in a lot of debt or increase your income and save the money.

You, sir, are the reason that many people never pursue their dreams of becoming pilots. I get the idea that you are not a pilot or have not made a career of it, because every respectable aviator I've ever met has an attitude of encouraging and building up the next generation, not just throwing discouraging information at them in the spirit of "honesty".

That being said, it would be one thing if you were actually correct, but you aren't. I'm already working with two separate independent CFI's, both of them offering me between $40-$60 less per hour than the school in my area.

I asked for wisdom, encouragement, and advice...you clearly did not take the time to read through my post or the subsequent replies and thought, "This is a great opportunity for me to appear wise!" Get going please.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

What was your major in college?

I did not get a college degree. I did a couple years of community college and then bailed. I understand what a lot of people are saying -- the airlines prefer a degree. But that's not the only way...and realistically it's just not going to happen for me (definitely not right now). I'll either find a way to fly with the airlines, degree be damned, or I'll end up doing something else.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

Wrong. There are many grants and scholarships for adults, just need to dig to find them. Not just aviation but college in general. Scholarships for school mean more money for flights.

[don’t start flaming] CAP. Depending on the squadrons in the area, once you have your PPL, you can work on the instrument thru CAP at substantially lower rates.

Good to know! I don't know much about CAP at all, besides the "flaming" that people love to do. I don't think it's the best bet for me right this second, but I will definitely keep it in mind for the future if it ever becomes the right choice! Thank you for your input! Ignore the haters!

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

I presume that you have already had a medical certificate. As mentioned earlier, look at the pitfalls many people your age have had to correct, some due to increased scrutiny on the part of the FAA towards existing medicals. Specifically, if you have EVER had drug or alcohol treatment or arrests, or EVER been put on medication for diagnoses like ADHD, etc., then those issues have a real chance of coming back to ground you and create such as expense to correct that you simply can't afford to continue. It's a common problem in aspiring pilots in your age ground, and it can be a big hurdle to clear.

I do have my first-class medical. I didn't realize that there was increased scrutiny toward existing medicals. That's good to keep in mind. I also need to brush up on my FAR/AIM because mine may be expired now. Either way, I had no issue getting it the first time around. I have been very blessed with good health (aside from terrible eyesight, but just good enough), and I had two parents that kept me away from doctors who wanted to tell me that the reason I didn't pay attention in 5th grade was because I had a DISORDER (such a ridiculous world we live in). No drugs in my history aside from some hair loss treatment medication I take...the only thing better than being a pilot is being a pilot with HAIR! Ha.

Second, when the money dries up, much of the prior training is lost and needs to be repeated. The more money you can save and hold prior to resumption of training the less likely you are to get into that spiral.

I keep getting told this, and I really appreciate the reminder. I'm 99% confident at this point that I've worked it out to be able to get through my PPL with zero hold-ups or breaks. After that is where it may get a bit tough. I plan to take some time after I get my PPL, obviously staying current, but focusing on saving up money so I can launch into my instrument and commercial training with the cash to complete it.

Thanks for your post. Very much appreciated!

 

[JOhnH]

@SkyChaser, thank you for your comment, sir.

Lol!
A applaud you for your maturity and your willingness to accept advice, and even criticism. I think you have received a lot of good advice here. Especially any advice that councils you AGAINST taking loans to finance your training.

But here is another, somewhat unrelated and unsolicited piece of advice.
I'm a fat old white guy, but even I know not to assume that everyone with a good comment is another fat old white guy.
For instance, @SkyChaser happens to be quite an accomplished young female.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

For instance, @SkyChaser happens to be quite an accomplished young female.

I just audibly sighed then face-palmed. This forum makes it easy for me too! It's on her profile AND her profile picture makes it pretty obvious.

@SkyChaser, I sincerely apologize. As a GenZ'er, you'd expect me not to be such a sexist!

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

You are already too old to find grants and scholarships.

I'm still giggling to myself about, "You are already too old." Sir/Ma'am, I'm not too old to do anything except waste my time with people who aren't in my corner.

 

[Dana]

Definitely talk to your old CFI for advice. Even if you can't continue in the BSA program, you might be able to work with him if he has access to a plane, or he may be able to point you to somebody.

There are lots of independent CFIs out there, but it's usually word of mouth. Ask around.

It's difficult to be hired by an airline without a bachelors degree (this may be changing somewhat). But the universities that offer an "aviation degree" of whatever sort are usually a bad proposition, you spend lots of money and get an essentially useless degree. Better to get a degree in something you'll enjoy doing if flying doesn't work out for whatever reason.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

Definitely talk to your old CFI for advice.

My old instructor is a wonderful man. I'm actually getting lunch with him next weekend, I'm really looking forward to it. He unfortunately doesn't have access to a plane (I've already asked him if he would keep instructing me, lol)...but I bet he'll have lots of great advice for me in addition to everything I've received here.

Thank you for your reply, Dana!

 

[Half Fast]

I just audibly sighed then face-palmed. This forum makes it easy for me too! It's on her profile AND her profile picture makes it pretty obvious.

@SkyChaser, I sincerely apologize. As a GenZ'er, you'd expect me not to be such a sexist!

BTW, she got her pilot's license while working for peanuts as a preschool teacher, after getting her BS degree. If she could do it on her tiny income, I'm sure you'll figure out a way.

 

[Kellan Bradshaw]

BTW, she got her pilot's license while working for peanuts as a preschool teacher, after getting her BS degree. If she could do it on her tiny income, I'm sure you'll figure out a way.

Well that's encouraging. She sounds like a regular old legend around here, lol.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

@SkyChaser, I sincerely apologize. As a GenZ'er, you'd expect me not to be such a sexist!

That's okay. She and I identify as boomers and quite enjoy a little bit of sexism.

Well that's encouraging. She sounds like a regular old legend around here, lol.

Well... our story is quite the topic.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Personally, if I was just starting off in aviation I'd get a job at an FBO. I'd drive a fuel truck or do whatever job I could. I'd surround myself with aviation 24/7 and increase the probability of meeting folks who could help me make a career of it. Maybe combine that with those delivery jobs you were doing as well. This is really no different than people who have to pick up gigs to pay for college. There's no short cuts and the path isn't easy, but the results are worth it! Especially if you *know* you want to make a career out of it.

After you're at 250h and have your commercial you might consider this path (link to article), it's a heavily subsidized aircraft rental if you're OK flying for Mesa when you're done. In the article they mention they had/have plans to expand to Arizona (currently offered in FL). Renting planes at $25/hour sure seems like an attractive way to get to 1500. If I was strapped for cash and looking for ways to keep costs down as I build hours I'd look at opportunities like this in addition to whatever work I could get outside of that (CFI, etc) that could help me pay for flight hours. Good luck!

Preview of article:

 

[SkyChaser]

I just audibly sighed then face-palmed. This forum makes it easy for me too! It's on her profile AND her profile picture makes it pretty obvious.

@SkyChaser, I sincerely apologize. As a GenZ'er, you'd expect me not to be such a sexist!

I am not offended in the slightest little bit! It is completely understandable that you'd just assume that people on a pilot's forum would be guys and older ones, too.

 

[Half Fast]

I did not get a college degree. I did a couple years of community college and then bailed. I understand what a lot of people are saying -- the airlines prefer a degree. But that's not the only way...and realistically it's just not going to happen for me (definitely not right now). I'll either find a way to fly with the airlines, degree be damned, or I'll end up doing something else.

Be sure you have a good backup plan. At the moment, the airlines are struggling to hire enough pilots and can't afford to be choosy about college grads. That won't be the case forever, and by the time you complete your training and have enough hours you might find it impossible to get into an airline cockpit without a degree.

There are certainly other flying jobs available. I suggest that if you don't plan to finish college, you should open your aperture a bit and be willing to accept opportunities other than airlines.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

I did a couple years of community college and then bailed. I understand what a lot of people are saying -- the airlines prefer a degree.

4 year degree is no longer a requirement for First Officer for Majors.
Even Delta dropped that as a requirement.

... it's a heavily subsidized aircraft rental if you're OK flying for Mesa when you're done.

My friend is flying for Mesa. Working out great for him. Pay is great. He started at Mesa as First Officer and already has his date for Captain upgrade as well as his flow date for United.

Southern Airways Express (Part 135) hires pilots at 500 hrs with [Single] Commercial and Instrument. Caravan single turboprop. Turbine hours (single). Good experience. Crappy pay almost like no pay but at least you get hours and you are not paying for them. Likely other operations similar.

 

[murphey]

Scholarships and grants - the Biggie List.

https://www.faa.gov/education/grants_and_scholarships/

Yes, some/many are limited to 18 and under but if you do the research, amazing what you can find.

 

[SkyChaser]

BTW, she got her pilot's license while working for peanuts as a preschool teacher, after getting her BS degree. If she could do it on her tiny income, I'm sure you'll figure out a way.

And here I thought I was finally making bank!

Seriously, though, @Kellan Bradshaw , I was able to get my pilot's license and pay off almost all my student loans on a yearly salary of $27K, and that figure is including all the covid stimulus checks. I also was able to buy two cars with cash in that timeframe (just don't ask what they were. You would not be impressed. lol). I was living with my parents, but I paid $500/month in room and board and paid for my own cell plan, my car insurance, and my AAA coverage, so it should be roughly comparable to living with roommates.

I don't know where you live, but I lived/trained in southern MN/northern Iowa. If you live somewhere super expensive, you may consider going somewhere less expensive to get your ratings. It's a little expensive to get somewhere, but it might be worth it.

 

[TommyG]

1993 I paid 55/hr for a 152 with CFI while I was making $5/hr. Now around me a dual 152 hour is close to $200/hr.

My advice, follow skycatchers advice. Study your butt off, watch videos, borrow books and videos. I can tell you a box of pasta for $1.50 can last 4 days. I know about living cheap, saving and not wasting money. See if you can find an airport job to meet people. Or find a job you get paid cash, bartender, waiter, etc.

Get your ratings, get hours take a job that you will probably have to relocate for. As far as college degree, there are so many legitimate online schools now, you can earn a degree on the road. By the time you have hours for 121 you may be close to finishing the degree.

 

[Clip4]

Scholarships and grants - the Biggie List.

https://www.faa.gov/education/grants_and_scholarships/

Yes, some/many are limited to 18 and under but if you do the research, amazing what you can find.

This list is limited by age, limited to specific regions, limited to people in aviation degree programs, limited to women, ect. and most don’t pay for much training. I know this because I have been through this list trying to find funding for a deserving student.

 

[Clip4]

I'm still giggling to myself about, "You are already too old." Sir/Ma'am, I'm not too old to do anything except waste my time with people who aren't in my corner.

If I were in your corner I would be offering you my instructional time for free, which I do for a very few deserving students. There is always a long list of people with no money looking for free flight lessons, that doesn’t make them deserving.


You say you are a 22-year-old student. You should be graduating next week or at the latest May 2024 in a non-aviation degree field you selected. Surely you know about college scholarships by this point in your life.

And yes, you are too old for most the free easy cash sources you now seek. These programs are designed to introduce aviation to people under age 21 and few of these programs pay for advanced ratings.


3 ideas:
Get a job at an FBO/flight school that offers employee discounts, get a job at an employer with a tuition reimbursement program or serve in the military and use $15,000 a year GI bill when you complete your enlistment.