Looking for a time builder airplane (grab some popcorn and enjoy the show).

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Smilespergallon

Filing Flight Plan
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Smilespergallon
All,

First off, thanks for taking the time to even read this and give your inputs. This is my first post here but have been a long time researcher.

I am looking for a 2 seater side by side airplane to build time. I am aiming for lowest overall cost when everything is looked at (insurance, storage - I will hanger it here in FL, annual, etc). I am not really that worried about speed and am open to both certified and experimental aircraft. Purchase price I prefer to keep in 30k and under but could go up some if needed (don't want a loan).

Background: low time commercial/instrument pilot. No tailwheel experience but happy to get the endorsement as many of the legacies have them. I need the ability to fly 170NM, which I plan on doing weekly for my time building with the occasional 220NM trip(as long as its got 170nm range Id be happy as I can always stop for gas on longer trips). I do want the ability to have the payload for a second person as when I can "split the time" with my fellow time builders, I always try to fill the seat. I am 6'2 and 205lbs.

Overall this isn't my forever plane so while nice upgrades are convenient, I am just trying to log as many hours a year as my schedule permits. I know many owners don't break down their expenses into a $/hr figure but for me trying to log at least 200 hrs a year(or more if I have the time) the $/hr will really add up.

Thank you in advance for all your inputs.
 
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Cherokee 140? Cessna 152, if you can fit in it (I can't -- too tall)? I haven't priced either recently, but I think it's starting to get to be a *little* less of a seller's market...
 
Deyoung, thanks for your response, I will add that info in the beginning. I'm 6'2 205 lbs.
 
Zenith CH 601 XLB. Cheap, great visibility, you can fix/repair things yourself and without waiting to get on some a&ps schedule. The Jabiru 3300 would be a good engine that would still be in the lower price range.
 
Lndwarrior said:
Zenith CH 601 XLB. Cheap, great visibility, you can fix/repair things yourself and without waiting to get on some a&ps schedule. The Jabiru 3300 would be a good engine that would still be in the lower price range.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I do remember these from a while back. Something about needing the wing mod as early versions has spar issues or wing separation? I am a fan on the jab 3300 though if that was my route id be tempted to go with the Sonex. Not sure if that the cheapest option or not but I would say it would deserve a spot in the consideration column.
 
Smilespergallon said:
Background: low time commercial/instrument pilot. No tailwheel experience but happy to get the endorsement as many of the legacies have them.
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My thought (as someone who has considered time building activities) is what are you gaining with your time building? Yes, total time, but I'd want to maximize the "and ..." category. I think that would be appealing to future employers and insurance.

So, I would want something besides just total time and xc time. Tailwheel, complex, high performance, etc. In the interest of time building, complex and HP are not usually what I would be looking for since they tend to be the faster aircraft and a bit more expensive. For cheap time building, my option for "and ..." would be tailwheel. The flip side is that it would limit the people you could time build with.

Also, for first commercial job, I think tailwheel flying time would open up a lot of doors that would be more restricted if you have total time but no experience.

Keep us updated on your search.
 
Avid flyer and some of the clones (My ride - Merlin GT, early Kitfox).
Simple, cheap (don't know what it would go for in today's market, but I paid $20k), reliable Rotax 912, auto fuel if you wish...
 
If you're reasonably mechanically competent and want to [learn to] do your own maintenance, definitely go experimental. If not, exp may still be the best option but some classics are also options; but many of the classics are kinda tight. At your height you probably won't be comfortable in a lot of the side by side classics. An RV-6 or -7 would be a good choice but probably out of your budget. A Thorp could be an option, almost RV performance for a lot less money. Most Sonex owners seem to really like their rides, but I don't know if they can handle two big guys.
 
Although a 2 seater is very possible the useful load is usually insufficient so that is what caused me to not consider a 2 seater. I would go for a 4 seater. A Cherokee 140 sounds like a good option or consider a Grumman which is probably cheaper and within your budget. Another good option is a Mooney, you might need to spend closer to 50k for a Mooney. Do a prebuy.
 
As mentioned, WHY are you building time? How many hours do you have now? What is your goal?

If you are looking at a flying job, then you have to look at what kind of job. As someone mentioned, tailwheel time opens up jobs like aerial application and fire fighting. But does nothing extra for corporate or airlines. HP and complex may be better for those, but best is turbine time. But not cheap if you are paying. So you need to get your commercial, then a job like flying jumpers in a Caravan.

170 mile, even 220 will be in the range of most any plane. So a lot of choices. I love flying Grummans, so lean that way. But many. And maybe not stay with 2 seater, as some 4 seaters are not much more expensive to buy and operate, but give you longer range, carry more people if needed, and have more room.

And you may decide you want to go further. Also, I would highly recommend an instrument flight capable airplane. You can do your instrument training in it, then it gives you more options to get where you want and to get back.
 
I owned a Cherokee 140 for 14 years and it is a great little bird. I added a lift indicator in mine and practiced low speed maneuvers and high aoa takeoffs in cool weather. It has plenty of power on cool days but it is noticeably weaker on hot days. It is an honest 100 knot XC airplane and can cruise at 105 easily, and will complete a 400NM XC with good fuel reserve if the headwind is light.

You mentioned a possible tail dragger so I suggest considering a Cessna 140. There is an excellent 1950 article in Air Facts Journal about it. https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/10/from-the-archives-wolfgang-langewiesche-flies-across-africa/ A great and enlightening story by the master of the air.

Be aware that a high wing tail dragger is much less forgiving in a crosswind than a low wing tricycle. The Cherokee with its wide wheel track and low center of gravity has really good crosswind performance and you can learn to handle some pretty hairy crosswinds with it. You can fly it in winds that would keep the Cessna on the ground. I was able to fly on the really windy days when not many would take to the skies. I had a ball with it.
 
If you are trying to build time, get something slow. The longer it takes to make your 170nm trip, the more time you get. Look at some of the options with a Rotax 912. With a low power setting and possibly auto gas, they are going to be the least fuel cost per hour. Total time doesn't include total miles traveled on your logbook.
 
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Until you told us your size I was thinking Ercoupe. ;) You might consider a Beechcraft Skipper if you can find one. I think it will check all your boxes and it’s reasonably roomy.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Avid flyer and some of the clones (My ride - Merlin GT, early Kitfox).
Simple, cheap (don't know what it would go for in today's market, but I paid $20k), reliable Rotax 912, auto fuel if you wish...
Click to expand...

Funny you mention this, just discovered the Merlin GT on barnstorm last with a 912. Advertised at 3.5gph it deff meets at least part of the criteria! Thanks
 
Dana said:
If you're reasonably mechanically competent and want to [learn to] do your own maintenance, definitely go experimental. If not, exp may still be the best option but some classics are also options; but many of the classics are kinda tight. At your height you probably won't be comfortable in a lot of the side by side classics. An RV-6 or -7 would be a good choice but probably out of your budget. A Thorp could be an option, almost RV performance for a lot less money. Most Sonex owners seem to really like their rides, but I don't know if they can handle two big guys.
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I do love RV, but they don’t really like to fly slow. Yes you can throttle back but still not going to be burning what a Taylorcraft bc-12d or chief would.
I get it, two completely different airplanes but at 160-170nm normal trip, an RV is there in an hour. Pretty ironic for a pilot to say “man we just got here too fast” lol.
 
Pinecone said:
As mentioned, WHY are you building time? How many hours do you have now? What is your goal?

If you are looking at a flying job, then you have to look at what kind of job. As someone mentioned, tailwheel time opens up jobs like aerial application and fire fighting. But does nothing extra for corporate or airlines. HP and complex may be better for those, but best is turbine time. But not cheap if you are paying. So you need to get your commercial, then a job like flying jumpers in a Caravan.

170 mile, even 220 will be in the range of most any plane. So a lot of choices. I love flying Grummans, so lean that way. But many. And maybe not stay with 2 seater, as some 4 seaters are not much more expensive to buy and operate, but give you longer range, carry more people if needed, and have more room.

And you may decide you want to go further. Also, I would highly recommend an instrument flight capable airplane. You can do your instrument training in it, then it gives you more options to get where you want and to get back.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the reply!

so I do have my commercial/instrument as stated but just a low time pilot. I’m currently active duty (mq-9 guy I know know not a “real” pilot) and I have 10 years left of military service. I’m trying to build time for future employment for a post military career.

I do understand that 1500 hours in a cub may not mean squat to Delta or American but I know that right now 1000-1500 to a regional WOULD matter and I’d be able to get a job where someone else’s dime would pay for those high HP/complex/multi time.

I eventually will get my multi using the GI bill but for now, I’m just worried about building as many hours as cheap as possible to even be eligible for some of those other intro jobs later on.

already mentions once here, the Cherokee 140 I fly most still burns 8gph and seriously flight plan for 95kts/110 idicated. It’s a slow example. I wouldn’t call it a family hauler. My wife and kid are actually light enough to make that plane work but again most of the time I’m going to be flying either solo or with a buddy who wants to time share. The Cherokee 180 burns about 10GPH but it flies a decent bit fast than the 140 I fly.
 
lsaway said:
If you are trying to build time, get something slow. The longer it takes to make your 170nm trip, the more time you get. Look at some of the options with a Rotax 912. With a low power setting and possibly auto gas, they are going to be the least fuel cost per hour. Total time doesn't include total miles traveled on your logbook.
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I’m deff not opposed to the rotax 912 or any low HP planes. They do have a specific RPM range your suppose to stay in but still fuel efficient!

I should mention my Walmart down here carries 93 non ethanol(mostly for boats but I’ll happily carry it to the airport)
 
A Grumman AA-1 Yankee might work for you, but I agree that the Cherokee 140 might be the best bird for your mission. You could also put it on leaseback or sell it quickly if you got a deployment.

An MQ-9 ain't no quadcopter...it's a real plane. At a MGTOW of more than 10,000lbs, it's bigger than anything 95% of us on here fly. A RPIC is still responsible for the ship.

10 year commitment...did you graduate from a service academy or typical for unmanned pilots? Good luck.
 
steingar said:
Rent whatever is around. It'll be cheaper in the long run.
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Ultimately it depends on the amount of flying he does. For most people you're probably right, but owning does have it's intangibles.
 
Smilespergallon said:
Funny you mention this, just discovered the Merlin GT on barnstorm last with a 912. Advertised at 3.5gph it deff meets at least part of the criteria! Thanks
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I have corresponded with the seller, but have not seen the aircraft in person. I suspect that it is pretty nice. The spring gear is a lot nicer than the stupid bungees on the original. I like his cowl.
More room inside than the Avid Flyer. Mind is just under 750 pounds empty, 1300 gross, 16 gallons of fuel. I'll leave the rest of the math to you.
 
Brad Z said:
A Grumman AA-1 Yankee might work for you, but I agree that the Cherokee 140 might be the best bird for your mission. You could also put it on leaseback or sell it quickly if you got a deployment.

An MQ-9 ain't no quadcopter...it's a real plane. At a MGTOW of more than 10,000lbs, it's bigger than anything 95% of us on here fly. A RPIC is still responsible for the ship.

10 year commitment...did you graduate from a service academy or typical for unmanned pilots? Good luck.
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Thanks for the response! Yes we are still responsible for them and we even fly them chalk to chalk!

the Cherokee is a solid plane and super simple to fly and land as others mentioned. The current plane I rent is $135/wet which is the best I can find around here. That being said my goal is fly A LOT in the next few years 200+ a year as time (and money) permit. Renting at that rate becomes cost prohibitive.

10 years comes from I have 10 years left to retire. But ultimately my goal is to be interviewable for a job and ready to go in 5 years from now at the latest. Im full time reserves and have the ability to do both should I land the right flying job.
 
Any opportunity (or available time) to give civilian flight training, if you were to obtain your CFI?
 
I'm going to chime in with the others and say a Cherokee 140 is probably the way to go. Reasonably economical, and also there are a zillion of them out there, so parts aren't hard to find and everyone knows how to work on one. You said a two-seater initially -- keep in mind that a Cherokke-140 is more of a quite capable two seater than it is a maybe marginally manageable 4 seater anyway. I'm 6'3" and I did all my initial training in a 160 without a problem; it's cozy but not problematic.

I currently have a Cherokee-235, which is more than you need from what I gather -- but I do like the little bit more speed and LOT more useful load (it can carry almost its own weight).
 
deyoung said:
Cherokee 140? Cessna 152, if you can fit in it (I can't -- too tall)? I haven't priced either recently, but I think it's starting to get to be a *little* less of a seller's market...
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152 and 172 that have been taken care of are still holding their value. I just "dummy listed" my 152 using the above-average v-Ref price and the phone rang off the hook.

Smilespergallon said:
Deyoung, thanks for your response, I will add that info in the beginning. I'm 6'2 205 lbs.
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You can fit into a 152 with ease... or should I say, you'll be able to put in on with ease. ;)
 
Bonanza.

Er, I mean short wing piper (Clipper, Vagabond, etc)
 
If you're considering every cost angle, you need to also consider ease of resale so you're not stuck with some lemon when it's time to move on. That favors a common 4-seat aircraft that might cost more than an obscure 2-seater that you can buy cheaply.

I'd see if you can get into a C172 partnership in your situation. I'd personally rather finance a C172 than purchase a skipper, and I love skippers.
 
Where are you going to hanger the plane in Florida . For your budget you could probably find a nice Tri pacer,tomahawk or a beech skipper. Prices are way up for a decent Cessna 150 or a piper 140. Good luck on your quest. I fly a Cessna 150 and a good one is still drawing high dollar.
 
schmookeeg said:
If you're considering every cost angle, you need to also consider ease of resale so you're not stuck with some lemon when it's time to move on. That favors a common 4-seat aircraft that might cost more than an obscure 2-seater that you can buy cheaply.

I'd see if you can get into a C172 partnership in your situation. I'd personally rather finance a C172 than purchase a skipper, and I love skippers.
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This is a great point. Most people will rebuy a c150/152 or cherokee140.

I get some of you are referring to renting Vs buying but when you are aiming to fly 200+ hours a year, good luck with your scheduling from your local FBO.

my current Cherokee 140 I rent is from an individual and not an FBO and we still have to decon scheduling.

I recently talked to a friend who flew 750 hours in his Cherokee 180 last year (he’s more ambitious than I am
As I couldn’t swing that much free time with wife, kid, and full time job) but to reach these times, you have to to have access to the plane when YOUR schedule permit. Renting is deff cheaper and likely less stress under 85 hours a year (I’m sure my calcs are slightly off).

The other caveat is I do still have access to the Cherokee 140 to rent when/if my wife a kid wanted to join but they never really want to go. So with the ability to rent the 4 seater on occasion, a 2 seater in my mind will meet my criteria.

Sun N Fun is coming up in about a month and a half and I plan on going. Possibly flying a Cherokee 180 down there with a buddy. I’m hoping this will drive home some of the suggestions here and allow me some
Up close time with planes I don’t get to see at my local airport.
 
frfly172 said:
Where are you going to hanger the plane in Florida . For your budget you could probably find a nice Tri pacer,tomahawk or a beech skipper. Prices are way up for a decent Cessna 150 or a piper 140. Good luck on your quest. I fly a Cessna 150 and a good one is still drawing high dollar.
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hey frfly172,

I fly out of Milton (2r4) but hangars there are a 2 year wait. I may have an opportunity close by that airport that’s a grass strip(VERY well maintained) if a spot opens up.

besides the price being inflated, a 150 does make a lot of sense. Thanks for the input! I’ve never been a fan of the skipper. Tri pacer does deserve a look. I have some time in a DA-20 150/172 as well as some glider experience.
 
Observation - If the mission is solely time building, the characteristics you want are
  • big tanks
  • fuel efficient engine
  • goes slow
If you have to fly 200 miles, it's better to get there in 2 hours than 1.
 
Look at expected costs. $135 might not be out of line.

Price hangar's. Get a quote on insurance. Check with your local shop about the basic cost of an annual. See in there are any recurring ADs or SBs. Figure the cost of fuel per hour. Oil changes.

Don't forget pitot/static checks. Transponder checks. 500 magneto IRAN.

If you get a load, don't forget the interest costs.

Then some for contingency.
 
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