Looking for a decent twin, which models to look for?

alaskan9974

alaskan9974

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alaskan9974
I typically do shorter flights, longest is usually around 400nm. I want something that can haul a decent load and can handle icing.

I really want to justify the cost of a turbine single, but would rather not finance something at this time.

A pa-31 seems to check all the boxes, luckily my shop has good experience with them, and commented under 135 use they spend 1:1 flight time vs MX time, which if it cuts my flight time in half I would rather pay a mechanic a few hours of work then for me to have to sit in the plane for a few hours extra.

I had a few recommendations to look at the 400 series cessnas, but they are not very common up here and am worried about good service and parts availability. Aerocommanders look decent, but don't seem to have as much space as the piper does.
 
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This reeks of Aztec to me on the surface, but without details about what defines a decent load, if you want pressurization, and number of pax, I can't really comment further.

Turbine twins generally have lower CapEx than turbine singles. Get a Beech 99, they pop up every so often for about 0.5MM. :)
 
I have a fair amount of time in the Cessna 414 and less in the 421. Even though both are FIKI, I do not like either in ice.

I have had scary, scary amounts of ice on a 207... and still went out on the next flight...but it is slower than molasses in the winter...

Not much wrong with the Pa-31 in Alaska. It seemed to me to be a decent plane capable of handling what some folks call a runway.

For off airport work I prefer a 206, then as with the sled, it's no speed demon.
 
I use a couple of cherokee six's, the useful on one is 1700, other one is only 1600 without seats, so realistically they only take 1k lbs or so with fuel and myself, I only fly my supplies in, no pax, I don't need pressurization. I would love a turbine twin, but the cost for HSI/OH on two turbines gives me pause.

I looked at 207's but all the 135 operators seemed to have driven the price up on the examples I found that weren't freight dogs already which is why I went with the cheaper cherokees.

Looking at W&B's, I should be able to take 1700-2k lbs in the hoe with only myself and 2 hours fuel plus reserve. I heard the thinner wing on the 400's doesn't do well in icing but it's all second hand info I have no experience with them.

I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something else that might accomplish the same thing before I commited to a pa-31 and the mx tools it needs. My plan was to find a high time one and use it until it gave me issues that weren't cost effective to fix then park it for parts and find a lower time corporate bird and use it.

I figure if I plan on about $1500 per hour (fuel is 8-12 a gallon) op cost and MX reserve I hope to make it out ok, assuming 200 hours a year.

I have mainly complex high perf piston time, with some PC-12 and Caravan time thrown in so hopefully the insurance isn't too bad.
 
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alaskan9974 said:
I had heard the thinner wing on the 400's doesn't do well in icing but it's all second hand info I have no experience with them.
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No, the 400s don't do well in ice, and this is coming from New Mexico experience.

I have had the Navajo very iced up as well, and I won't hesitate to take off towards ice in one. It will also shed ice a whole lot better than a 414, but I'll bet prices on those dogs have gone up extremely.

Maybe a DC-6.?? Does NAC still have some sitting around.?? I remember seeing a C-119 with a jet engine mounted on the top sitting in either ANC or Fairbanks years ago... :lol:
 
Zeldman said:
No, the 400s don't do well in ice, and this is coming from New Mexico experience.

I have had the Navajo very iced up as well, and I won't hesitate to take off towards ice in one. It will also shed ice a whole lot better than a 414, but I'll bet prices on those dogs have gone up extremely.

Maybe a DC-6.?? Does NAC still have some sitting around.?? I remember seeing a C-119 with a jet engine mounted on the top sitting in either ANC or Fairbanks years ago... :lol:
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They still rumble around, although I heard the feds have been giving them a harder time with them, so they might not be around much longer. He has quite a collection out there, their new BAE-146's look out of place sitting next to the huge pile of dc-6's.
 
Navajo is a very ice capable airplane. I have flown the PA-31-310 over the Great Lakes for hundreds of hours and Chieftains in SE Alaska. Sorry to say for AK bragging rights, the icing was worse in the UP of Michigan. The birds I flew in Michigan were not technically FIKI birds, though they were approved for flight into light to moderate icing conditions. The FIKI certification which came about for the Navajos in the late 70's, didn't actually improve the ability of the aircraft to handle ice. It added boots inboard of the nacelle, which was a place that ice never seemed to gather a lot and didn't affect performance when it was there. The FIKI birds attempted to improve the system by splitting the inflation cycle of the boots, but not sure that the additional complication of the system was worth what was gained. You also got a heated stall warning indicator. The PA-31-310 had about 2200 lbs useful load and burned 34 gph for 180-185 KTAS depending on how heavy and the CG. My experience is that the PA-31-310 has more reliable engines and was cheaper to maintain than the Chieftain. I love the Jo's!
 
Have you looked at the DA42 or DA62? Very good fuel efficiency and speed.
 
alaskan9974 said:
I typically do shorter flights, longest is usually around 400nm. I want something that can haul a decent load and can handle icing.

I really want to justify the cost of a turbine single, but would rather not finance something at this time.

A pa-31 seems to check all the boxes, luckily my shop has good experience with them, and commented under 135 use they spend 1:1 flight time vs MX time, which if it cuts my flight time in half I would rather pay a mechanic a few hours of work then for me to have to sit in the plane for a few hours extra.

I had a few recommendations to look at the 400 series cessnas, but they are not very common up here and am worried about good service and parts availability. Aerocommanders look decent, but don't seem to have as much space as the piper does.
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I flew all three of PA-31 series years ago and my experience was that they were capable machines in ice. This was in northern New England/eastern Canada where cold weather was common. As for 135 planes needing 1:1 maintenance, ask them what the high touch items were. Possibly the passenger items are an issue (cosmetic items, seats), and also 135 has more scheduled items to accomplish. If it were your personal bird, you may not need as many maint visits. Newer avionics, new boots and some overhauled props/engs can do a lot for dispatch reliability though its not cheap. Plus, you have to factor in what the insurance would be on a Navajo vs.a TBM/Malibu.
Back then, I also flew the AC-680 and while it’s a capable hauler, whether ice or cargo - I prefer the Navajo.
 
I’ve got a 62 that seats 7. What are you looking for?
 
robottwo said:
Have you looked at the DA42 or DA62? Very good fuel efficiency and speed.
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A DA42 won’t haul much and you’ll be fighting CG. For the price of a 62, you can get a King Air E90 and 300k of fuel.
 
I think you described the Navajo’s mission to a T. Maybe a Cessna 402 could do the trick. But if you read your post while hosting Jeopardy, the first person to ring in would say “What is a Piper Navajo?”
 
alaskan9974 said:
I typically do shorter flights, longest is usually around 400nm. I want something that can haul a decent load and can handle icing.
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Getting into the brown jug airways??
 
DavidWhite said:
Getting into the brown jug airways??
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Town I live in is wet, so not a big of a deal like other places, but no, mostly freight or freeze thats too expensive to ship general freight, relatively.
 
alaskan9974 said:
Town I live in is wet, so not a big of a deal like other places, but no, mostly freight or freeze thats too expensive to ship general freight, relatively.
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I need you to get into the intl air freight business. It costs about $36K to ship ONE PALLET of material under 2K lbs from nowheresville, China to Tulsa, OK via air freight.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I need you to get into the intl air freight business. It costs about $36K to ship ONE PALLET of material under 2K lbs from nowheresville, China to Tulsa, OK via air freight.
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A bottle of the nastiest rotgut whiskey is still $200 in the village. You can make more via brown jug airways.
 
DavidWhite said:
A bottle of the nastiest rotgut whiskey is still $200 in the village. You can make more via brown jug airways.
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Lol we have about 7-8 shipments per year. I've been trying to get it over to ocean freight for a while. FedEx breaks it off in us.
 
Piston power: The Beechcraft 55/58 wins hands down for speed, comfort, and useful load.

This from a guy who loves the C-337...................
 
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