Long time in annual... is this normal?

A

andersenpj

Filing Flight Plan
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Feb 20, 2018
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Reno, Nv
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andersenpj
I dropped my Piper Arrow by the shop on Aug 16 for an annual, and I also needed the dorsal fin fairing replaced, which I provided the parts for. The Annual and fairing work was done 2 weeks later, and my mechanic found the landing gear Torque links needed new bushings and bolts, the elevator trim jack screw needed replaced, and it needed new rubber motor mounts. All stocked parts with Spruce. So that the shop could get the commission, I paid him him to order parts on Aug 30. Today is Sept 27, and it’s still hanging around the shop, incomplete. I have no idea when the parts were actually ordered, he said they were lost in shipping for 2 weeks, and I don’t believe he inquired with Spruce until last Friday. The motor mounts just showed up earlier this week (spruce has 65 in stock) and It’s still not complete.
These are fairly routine jobs, right? 4 weeks seems absurd. The shop’s work has been great, and I do trust them, but I feel like I got hosed out of 6+ weeks use of my airplane because he just didn’t want to call Spruce. I try very hard to be a decent, low pressure, bill paying customer, but dang it! Is this normal or most likely an anomaly? Will I go through the same BS at every shop? If this is normal, It makes me seriously consider selling this thing and building one that I could do the annual on myself, or just writing this diversion off.
 
andersenpj said:
I dropped my Piper Arrow by the shop on Aug 16 for an annual, and I also needed the dorsal fin fairing replaced, which I provided the parts for. The Annual and fairing work was done 2 weeks later, and my mechanic found the landing gear Torque links needed new bushings and bolts, the elevator trim jack screw needed replaced, and it needed new rubber motor mounts. All stocked parts with Spruce. So that the shop could get the commission, I paid him him to order parts on Aug 30. Today is Sept 27, and it’s still hanging around the shop, incomplete. I have no idea when the parts were actually ordered, he said they were lost in shipping for 2 weeks, and I don’t believe he inquired with Spruce until last Friday. The motor mounts just showed up earlier this week (spruce has 65 in stock) and It’s still not complete.
These are fairly routine jobs, right? 4 weeks seems absurd. The shop’s work has been great, and I do trust them, but I feel like I got hosed out of 6+ weeks use of my airplane because he just didn’t want to call Spruce. I try very hard to be a decent, low pressure, bill paying customer, but dang it! Is this normal or most likely an anomaly? Will I go through the same BS at every shop? If this is normal, It makes me seriously consider selling this thing and building one that I could do the annual on myself, or just writing this diversion off.
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:dunno:

This is one reason to do owner assist annuals and order your own parts.
 
Some shops will push off non-commercial customer planes to get their commercial customers (flight schools, etc) out the door quicker.
 
Our club 182 took from mid sept to nov to get annual done. 6k. We got hosed a bit. Now under new ownership and talked to the owner and mentioned annual is due in nov and he said he would put on schedule right away. They are booked till dec with mx !!
 
Spruce's delivery times on in-stock items is great, and so is their customer service. I've ordered from them a bunch of times, and never had to wait more than a couple days for the parts. Something's wrong here.
 
MuseChaser said:
Spruce's delivery times on in-stock items is great, and so is their customer service. I've ordered from them a bunch of times, and never had to wait more than a couple days for the parts. Something's wrong here.
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I’d second that thought. Having built a ‘10 with a Van’s kit and 2-3 Spruce shipments/week, Spruce is a as good as it gets. A 4:00pm order generally gets shipped same day independent of method, even on Fridays. Their inventory is accurate.
Fast and reliable they are.

That online catalog enhancement from a few years ago sucks but it’s all in there somewhere.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Spruce is good and I've had great success with them 99% of the time. BUT, when you order several items, occasionally one that shows in stock is not. Also, I avoid their backorder as the in stock dates are a preprogrammed guess. Recently waiting on 3 Good year Flight Special 2s which were part of a larger order and were back-ordered, expected dates changed 3 times and after several weeks I cancelled and ordered from Desser (got them the next day).
 
I've had goofy 'orders' happen to good shops multiple times. Do a little inquiring, but it could be just bad luck. Like mine. :(
 
andersenpj said:
Will I go through the same BS at every shop?
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I would think the answer is no.

Did they say the aircraft was not airworthy without the repairs being done?

I think I would have asked for the annual to be signed off and schedule the work to be done in the near future. When parts are in hand.
 
AKBill said:
Did they say the aircraft was not airworthy without the repairs being done?
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Yeah, and I had no reason to counter after he showed me the problems. Really didn’t think they’d take that long to fix, and the mechanic estimated about a week.. I’ve settled down a little, and thinking it was just a one off. There is some upside; my annual will be in Oct next year, instead of August. I am going to inquire with another shop, see how they manage repairs after annual, and get some reference points.

Thanks for the idea about signing it off and scheduling repairs later, I’ll keep that in mind.

Appreciate everyone’s responses. This is my first airplane, 2nd year of ownership, so, I really don’t have any reference points.
 
andersenpj said:
Yeah, and I had no reason to counter after he showed me the problems. Really didn’t think they’d take that long to fix, and the mechanic estimated about a week.. I’ve settled down a little, and thinking it was just a one off. There is some upside; my annual will be in Oct next year, instead of August. I am going to inquire with another shop, see how they manage repairs after annual, and get some reference points.

Thanks for the idea about signing it off and scheduling repairs later, I’ll keep that in mind.

Appreciate everyone’s responses. This is my first airplane, 2nd year of ownership, so, I really don’t have any reference points.
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Many of us got hosed on our first few annuals. You don't know what you don't know.

You'll get through this. From now on, insist on doing "owner assisted annuals" -- even if they say it will cost MORE. You will learn everything about your airplane (it's really a very simple machine, compared to any modern car), and within a few years you will be "hose-proof" because you will be able to intelligently separate the BS from the real needs.
 
andersenpj said:
Thanks for the idea about signing it off and scheduling repairs later, I’ll keep that in mind.
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Something you should consider doing is getting an Parts Book and Maintenance Manual for you plane. That way you can educate yourself and get a better feel for what needs done. As @Jay Honeck has mentioned owner assisted annuals are a good way to do that.
 
I would also suggest joining the Piper forum. Nothing against our beloved POA, but Piper forum will yield more specific type support. They are a good group. I was recently helped with a landing gear issue involving a part not found in any of the manuals! My mechanic was unaware of it also. I would have been a long time fixin$ it without Piper Forum.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I would also suggest joining the Piper forum
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Good point, I've been associated with the Beech Areo Club for at least 10 years. The folks on that forum truly help out with parts and maintenance.
 
If your to easy going the shop may start taking you for granted. May be time to try a new shop.
 
Clip4 said:
If you can find an IA that will allow you to assist. Most shops will not and have good reasons not to.
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It’d be interesting to get a poll on who does owner assists. I feel like around half the pilots here help out significantly with Mx on their planes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MIFlyer said:
It’d be interesting to get a poll on who does owner assists. I feel like around half the pilots here help out significantly with Mx on their planes...
Click to expand...

I am heavily involved in the maintenance of both my planes. I have a few advantages though. My business office with my partners is located at my home airport, so ready access to the planes and my mechanic any time I want during any work week am not travelling. I rent my insulated & heated hangar space, but I have my own tools so its very well equipped, including jacks to lift the plane for gear swings, etc. I'm an old hotrodder (before I discovered I could p!$$ away money even faster on airplanes :eek: ), so very comfortable working with tools and anything mechanical. My primary reasons to be involved in owner assisted maintenance, in order of importance, are:
  1. To gain an intimate understanding of every system on the airplane, it increases my confidence when flying the plane;
  2. To improve the ability to recognize the root causes of and troubleshoot problems in flight;
  3. Get a sense of satisfaction doing things and working with my hands;
  4. Makes the cost of owning and operating the plane a bit more palatable.

My mechanic and I have a few rules we live by.
  1. Nothing gets taken apart on the airplane without my mechanic knowing about it first. Even if I am going to do an oil change and spark plug maintenance, he knows about it. The last thing you want is to surprise your mechanic.
  2. Anything I do is meticulously documented for his subsequent inspection.
  3. I let him know about snags or any "change from normal" as they occur. That creates a lot of trust as he knows I'm not going to ignore something and try to let it slide to save a buck. Anything we might defer is because he recommends it and we both agree. Safety and dispatch reliability are the primary drivers for me.
  4. I open up the airplane at my hangar for the annuals, but it then gets towed to his shop to do the inspection. I am purely an observer during that process.
  5. I stick with learning and doing repeatable tasks. All the one-off, infrequent, specialized knowledge stuff I believe should be left entirely to the professionals, unless he suggests I tackle one aspect of it or another. An example, when all the hydraulic hoses were replaced on the Aztec earlier this year I made up the new hoses (repeatable task) but my mechanic installed each one on the plane and pressure tested them.
  6. Both airplanes are on multi-year, age-related preventative maintenance/improvement programs to systematically address rubber parts and other things that wear with time, instead of hours flown, and tend to be ignored by previous owners.
 
I order my own parts, I also hover in the shop every alternate day finding out what exactly was done when I am not around. The shop gives me priority just to get my arse out of there
 
WannFly said:
I order my own parts, I also hover in the shop every alternate day finding out what exactly was done when I am not around. The shop gives me priority just to get my arse out of there
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I’d pay you to have it done somewhere else. Lol

I do owner assist in my own hangar. The downside of that is I have to get the IA to come to my hangar to do the work. Puts me lower on the priority list than the planes clogging up his hangar space. I have actually towed my plane to his hangar to get work done faster when I needed to.

But any delays in parts are all on me.
 
An Arrow is just a Cherokee with retractable gear. No reason for an annual to take this long. No reason at all. Time for a heart to heart with the owner, or a new shop.
 
Clip4 said:
If you can find an IA that will allow you to assist. Most shops will not and have good reasons not to.
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Because they are sketchy?

All the highly recommended good IAs I know encourage it, at least they did for me and the folks I know.
 
I can't believe any mechanic would allow one to step foot in their shop. The liability is enormous.
 
James331 said:
Because they are sketchy?

All the highly recommended good IAs I know encourage it, at least they did for me and the folks I know.
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You must either have a very basic airplane or don’t know many IAs because the vast majority of highly qualified across the US do not do owner assisted annuals and especially on more advanced airplanes - the kind you need highly qualified IAs for. While I know IAs who do owner assisted annuals and have done a lot of them, finding IAs that allow owner assists are becoming quite rare and the owner is not very likely to get them done at relatively busy shops.
 
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steingar said:
Anything happens to you they could be on tap for your medical bills.
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I understand that. This is why they have insurance. Again, I've never seen a mechanic who didn't let me in the shop when my plane was there. Most will let me in even when it is not.
 
Clip4 said:
You must not know many because the vast majority of highly qualified across the US do not do owner assisted annuals. While I know IAs who do owner assisted annuals and have done a lot of them, finding IAs that allow owner assists are becoming quite rare and the owner is not very likely to get them done at relatively busy shops.
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I know plenty, and I was addressing Steingar's comment about not being allowed in at all. Still, I have two shops where I HAVE done owner assist annuals. Hell, I came over one day while my plane was in the hangar and asked Bobbi how the annual was coming and she handed Margy and me each a screwdriver and told us to go open her up. Maybe a dozen total over several decades of aircraft ownership and I've never seen one not allow me on the shop floor. As a matter of fact, I've had my access to keys to a couple of shops.
steingar said:
An Arrow is just a Cherokee with retractable gear. No reason for an annual to take this long. No reason at all. Time for a heart to heart with the owner, or a new shop.
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Once there was additional maintenance needed to be done, this ceased to be an just an "annual."
 
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Clip4 said:
You must either have a very basic airplane or don’t know many IAs because the vast majority of highly qualified across the US do not do owner assisted annuals and especially on more advanced airplanes - the kind you need highly qualified IAs for. While I know IAs who do owner assisted annuals and have done a lot of them, finding IAs that allow owner assists are becoming quite rare and the owner is not very likely to get them done at relatively busy shops.
Click to expand...

High performance and complex, IAs I use often work on working planes, maybe it’s a industry thing, don’t know, but the mechanics I know and use probably would think it was odd if I wasn’t elbows deep in my own plane. Again maybe mechanical ability or being in the industry has something to do with it, but most everyone I know who works in aviation as a pilot, helps on their personal plane annuals.

steingar said:
I can't believe any mechanic would allow one to step foot in their shop. The liability is enormous.
Click to expand...

Demographics?

Based on the folks I’ve seen, not exactly city folks, if someone slipped they’d laugh and say “no one better have got that on camera” vs play possum and try to get a payday
 
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James331 said:
High performance and complex, IAs I use often work on working planes, maybe it’s a industry thing, don’t know, but the mechanics I know and use probably would think it was odd if I wasn’t elbows deep in my own plane. Again maybe mechanical ability or being in the industry has something to do with it, but most everyone I know who works in aviation as a pilot, helps on their personal plane annuals.



Demographics?

Based on the folks I’ve seen, not exactly city folks, if someone slipped they’d laugh and say “no one better have got that on camera” vs play possum and try to get a payday
Click to expand...

Yes, if you reside in agri-land finding these types are easier, but most aircraft are located in metro areas.
 
Any IA that refuses to let the owner be involved in the annual is one I would never use. It's MY airplane and I'M the one responsible for keeping it airworthy. I'm not talking about jumping in a removing and rebuilding a strut (which I can do), I'm talking about letting the owner in on the decision process and have the option of deferring any item that doesn't need to be fixed "right now." Any IA who believes an owner should be left out of the loop and simply write the check doesn't deserve to be an IA.
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, if you reside in agri-land finding these types are easier, but most aircraft are located in metro areas.
Click to expand...

Not sure if it’s just not living in the rat cage, I mean I lived near some large cities too, think it depends on the city.

I mean probably more owner assists in SEA vs NYC based on the type of folks who populate those areas.
 
In my experience, the decision for an IA to allow owner-assisted annuals is more based on his workload and shop space availability than anything else. With the customers I helped, the only way it could work for their annuals was the IA came to their hangar and performed the inspection and I provided the other oversight during disassembly/reassembly. The IA was simply too busy to allow owner-assisted in his hangar.

Unfortunately, as IAs retire with no replacements I think the days of owner-assisted annuals are becoming less. For example, in a 200 mile radius around my area 12+ IAs have left for various reasons with no new ones moving in. I still get calls from people looking for options. Another trend I've seen is more airports are restricting the type of mx that can be performed in storage hangars. A good friend who is a traveling IA initially lost 6 aircraft annuals at one location due to the mx restrictions. Fortunately, it was reversed but there are now more insurance requirements being pushed on the owners so no telling where that will end up.

Unless the feds offer some sort of owner-maintained category for GA aircraft in the next 10 years there will be a much greater problem in the future.
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, if you reside in agri-land finding these types are easier, but most aircraft are located in metro areas.
Click to expand...
I was within the DC SFRA and had no problem.
 
I can remember an airport in CO that required that if I was doing annuals or work on planes in my hangar that they wanted a $200 fee per month that I was working on someone else's plane. The fix? I had the owner of any plane I was wrenching on lease me their plane for the length of time it would take to finish the job (For a whole dollar!)... Lol, YMMV!

If you own a plane, you should be helping with the annuals to the best of your ability. As outlined above, you'll be so much smarter on your bird when the need arises...
 
My old mechanic divided her customers into two groups: those who could turn a wrench on their aircraft and those who were "just pilots."

I was in the middle of assisting on the annual one year and we broke for lunch and were sitting in the office eating pizza and a customer came in and said he thought his battery was shot. She told him to bring it in and she'd bench test it. He gave her the deer in the headlights look. "Oh, that's right. You're just a pilot. Ron, go help him take his battery out."
 
Of course, I just finished up my own annual inspection on our new (to us) C-210B and that took nearly 4 months. But, I pretty much only worked on it during the weekends, and I wrote up 126 separate maintenance items. Thankfully, it's back in the air now, and I've whittled that list down to 11 remaining squawks that I'll knock out between now and next year's annual...
 
GRG55 said:
I am heavily involved in the maintenance of both my planes. I have a few advantages though. My business office with my partners is located at my home airport, so ready access to the planes and my mechanic any time I want during any work week am not travelling. I rent my insulated & heated hangar space, but I have my own tools so its very well equipped, including jacks to lift the plane for gear swings, etc. I'm an old hotrodder (before I discovered I could p!$$ away money even faster on airplanes :eek: ), so very comfortable working with tools and anything mechanical. My primary reasons to be involved in owner assisted maintenance, in order of importance, are:
  1. To gain an intimate understanding of every system on the airplane, it increases my confidence when flying the plane;
  2. To improve the ability to recognize the root causes of and troubleshoot problems in flight;
  3. Get a sense of satisfaction doing things and working with my hands;
  4. Makes the cost of owning and operating the plane a bit more palatable.

My mechanic and I have a few rules we live by.
  1. Nothing gets taken apart on the airplane without my mechanic knowing about it first. Even if I am going to do an oil change and spark plug maintenance, he knows about it. The last thing you want is to surprise your mechanic.
  2. Anything I do is meticulously documented for his subsequent inspection.
  3. I let him know about snags or any "change from normal" as they occur. That creates a lot of trust as he knows I'm not going to ignore something and try to let it slide to save a buck. Anything we might defer is because he recommends it and we both agree. Safety and dispatch reliability are the primary drivers for me.
  4. I open up the airplane at my hangar for the annuals, but it then gets towed to his shop to do the inspection. I am purely an observer during that process.
  5. I stick with learning and doing repeatable tasks. All the one-off, infrequent, specialized knowledge stuff I believe should be left entirely to the professionals, unless he suggests I tackle one aspect of it or another. An example, when all the hydraulic hoses were replaced on the Aztec earlier this year I made up the new hoses (repeatable task) but my mechanic installed each one on the plane and pressure tested them.
  6. Both airplanes are on multi-year, age-related preventative maintenance/improvement programs to systematically address rubber parts and other things that wear with time, instead of hours flown, and tend to be ignored by previous owners.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much how I do it.
 
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