Long haul flying - what a PITA

[RyanShort1]

I’ve done two four-hour legs once a week for a total of 8+ hours in the Cardinal every week for the last decade and I can tell you it’s not getting more fun, but if you do it regularly your tolerance can build to it somewhat.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You long-haulers, don’t forget to consider if low dose aspirin is appropriate for you on such trips.

 

[Flyer Scott]

My wife’s dad worked for TWA. They’d go to the airport pick whatever flight was open and go for the weekend. She went to Paris, France for the weekend. She was in grade school and the teacher asked them to write what they did on their weekend. The teacher accused her making up a fake story.

Flying our Saratoga is pretty comfortable regardless how long we go. Favorite longer flight is JOT ABY MKY. Always go as high as best winds allow and always use oxygen. Wife and or daughters typically are asleep in back before gear are up.

 

[Flyer Scott]

33.8 hours. One takeoff. One landing. Four 120K pound air refuelings. 18 hours due-regard over the ocean. All while wearing 8 pounds of helmet and 45 pounds of parachute. Quit whining. You’re building your hours for upgrade…

Now, where’d I put my walker…

As for the GA side, buy a 210. More than enough room. Comfy articulating seats. So much legroom you won’t be able to touch the rudder pedals with the seat full aft.

The 33.8 hour flight sounds incredible. That story could be a great thread alone. Have you shared that story somewhere on here yet?

 

[Zeldman]

If you are flying an unpressurized aircraft, supplemental oxygen can be a game changer. Yes the regulations don't kick in until 12,500, but even at 6,000 for long periods of time you are slowly becoming mildly hypoxic.

I live at 6500 feet, should I sleep on supplemental oxygen.??

But yes, for flatlanders I agree on oxygen, especially at night.

I have been to 3 Houston's. Houston, TX, Houston, AK and Houston, BC Canada.

 

[Pinecone]

Mooney 252, longest leg was 7 hours take off to touchdown. I was solo so could slide seat back and stretch a leg into the other footwell. Travel John from Amazon for the bladder issue.

And I have one fully and 3 partially collapsed lumbar discs.

 

[hindsight2020]

Those gratuitous practice bleeding sorties in the buff is what cured me from wanting to fly anything with long legs for a living ( damn near cured me from flying professionally). Thankfully i found vocational refuge in high-sortie-count/low-block land aka flight training. Only paid work i see myself doing after the kick me out, is regional length type work, unless i find a unicorn six figure paying flight instructor job. Transcons/redeyes for the birds.

When asked, I used to joke i ended up in barksdale because i got lost on my way to med school, but then I recently found out an initial qual buff classmate of mine just started his dermatology residency (his father was a UPS CA incidentally). Lol.

on the spam can side, i hated the arrow seat bottoms, too close to the wall, makes everyone side saddle and the right corners becomes a hot spot. The warrior with the high backs were the same but the extra head support was nice. I tried to swap them but fac built and its prices, so i just endured it until the end. All in all i never flew anything longer than 4:30, and given the low speeds, fuel stops didn't appreciably hamper how far i could get to in a daily 12 hour block.

Even basic automotive seats as i have in my economy trim hyundai, would be a marked improvement on my tolerance for long-segment spam can flying. Whoever mentioned it's all about seat seat seats earlier in the thread, is 100pct on point from where i (wait for it..).. sit.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I had a local auto upholsterer do custom seats. Extra firm leather. Makes a difference.

 

[DavidWhite]

I (occasionally) do 10 hour days at work. The best thing for my back is an Oregon Aero seat cushion. Best $200 you can spend imo.

 

[TCABM]

I rode my bicycle to Paris this past summer!

View attachment 123595

Me, too.

 

[Katamarino]

What are your tips for not feeling wrecked after a long day sitting on your butt? I’m guessing @Katamarino learned a few tricks.

I must admit, I've never really had to do anything special. Possibly a combination of natural tolerance, and the 182 being pretty comfortable anyway. There's room to spread out a bit, especially when solo. Moving about in the seat regularly and stretching the legs definitely helps.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The human body evolved to chase down herd animals on the African plains. We are endurance machines, made to move, not sit. Like any machine, we deteriorate when not used for our purpose.
If your job requires sitting for long periods, then you must do something outside of work to get that movement in. The negative health effects of long term sitting are well documented.
That can be as simple as 15 minutes of rigorous calisthenics every morning or evening. Pushups, situps, and deep knee bends or lunges work all the major joints and muscle groups.
Much of the knee and back pain we experience as we age can be attributed to muscular weakening due to disuse, and can be reversed with regular bodyweight workouts. No gym required.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Bangkok to Diego Garcia was 8.8 hours, but we could get out of the seat and walk around now and then. There wasn't any traffic out over the Indian Ocean, but if we missed Diego Garcia we would run out of fuel on the way to Africa.

 

[Velocity173]

7 hrs in an airplane I’ve never really had fatigue issues. 7 hrs in a helicopter and I’m beat. Unless the seats have anti-vibration tech and tilt back, cruising for hours leaning forward and constant vibration is a recipe for back issues.

 

[kayoh190]

On the GA side, I've done 6 hours in a 182R and 5 hours in a Citation S550. The 182 trip was while in college so it didn't hurt *too* much (or more accurately - too dumb to care), and while the Citation cockpit is small, at least I could climb out from time to time to stretch. But now that I'm old, I think 3 hours is probably my limit for any kind of GA situation.

For work, about a year ago I went over to the 777 after nine years of narrowbody flying. The leg length isn't really the problem - with a 3 or 4 person crew you're never in the seat for much more than 4 hours at a time, and of course we get up and move around, use the lav, etc. The bigger issue is that to take advantage of a long-haul schedule and maximize my time at home, I prefer to fly the longer legged trips, and ideally I'm leaving late on the front end and arriving early on the back end. It’s great for my family - I can fly a full schedule on fewer than 10 days of work per month - but that also means I'm spending a lot of time flying on the back side of the clock, which is hard on my body. The bunks are comfortable and I sleep well on the plane, but there's no way to land at home at 7am after being the air for 15 hours and not feel like garbage. I’m still new and experimenting with what works - trading into a ‘short’ Europe trip after a pair of longer ones seems to work well, even at the expense of schedule efficiency. Maybe I’ll even throw a reserve month into the mix every so often to stay at home.

Anyway, jury is still out. It really is an incredible airplane and hanging out in Barcelona sure beats Cleveland, but talk to me again in a few years to see how my body handles it. Some guys seem impervious to it - my last Captain has been flying widebodies for the last 30 years, retires in March, and he looks better than me at 20 years my senior. Others don’t fare so well. I suppose I can always bid back to the 737 if I begin to feel the wear and tear.

 

[iRyan]

On the GA side, I've done 6 hours in a 182R and 5 hours in a Citation S550. The 182 trip was while in college so it didn't hurt *too* much (or more accurately - too dumb to care), and while the Citation cockpit is small, at least I could climb out from time to time to stretch. But now that I'm old, I think 3 hours is probably my limit for any kind of GA situation.

For work, about a year ago I went over to the 777 after nine years of narrowbody flying. The leg length isn't really the problem - with a 3 or 4 person crew you're never in the seat for much more than 4 hours at a time, and of course we get up and move around, use the lav, etc. The bigger issue is that to take advantage of a long-haul schedule and maximize my time at home, I prefer to fly the longer legged trips, and ideally I'm leaving late on the front end and arriving early on the back end. It’s great for my family - I can fly a full schedule on fewer than 10 days of work per month - but that also means I'm spending a lot of time flying on the back side of the clock, which is hard on my body. The bunks are comfortable and I sleep well on the plane, but there's no way to land at home at 7am after being the air for 15 hours and not feel like garbage. I’m still new and experimenting with what works - trading into a ‘short’ Europe trip after a pair of longer ones seems to work well, even at the expense of schedule efficiency. Maybe I’ll even throw a reserve month into the mix every so often to stay at home.

Anyway, jury is still out. It really is an incredible airplane and hanging out in Barcelona sure beats Cleveland, but talk to me again in a few years to see how my body handles it. Some guys seem impervious to it - my last Captain has been flying widebodies for the last 30 years, retires in March, and he looks better than me at 20 years my senior. Others don’t fare so well. I suppose I can always bid back to the 737 if I begin to feel the wear and tear.

I tried East Coast to Western Europe for about a year and it wrecked me. Even though our longest was about 9 hours, I could never adjust to the constant red eye schedule.

 

[schmookeeg]

I do cross-continent trips a few times a year. I just sit sideways and netflix.

Beech seats mostly don't tear me up, even with 12-14 hour days in the saddle, although the newer 36 series can be a bit overstuffed and the legroom/headroom equation suffers for my 6'2 frame. I'll feel some back tension after a long day in those just from involuntary stooping.

 

[Piperonca]

33.8 hours. One takeoff. One landing. Four 120K pound air refuelings. 18 hours due-regard over the ocean. All while wearing 8 pounds of helmet and 45 pounds of parachute.

What kind of airplane takes that much fuel but still requires a parachute?

 

[TCABM]

What kind of airplane takes that much fuel but still requires a parachute?

E-3s had parachutes until the mid-90s, IIRC. There’s a bailout chute on the pilot side, between the forward entry door and leading edge of the wing that dropped you out right in front of a bunch of antenna blades.

You can see it in the blow out of the forward lower lobe, below.

We took up to 60K routinely and I think I saw 80K once on an AR.

 

[Groundpounder]

On the GA side, I've done 6 hours in a 182R and 5 hours in a Citation S550. The 182 trip was while in college so it didn't hurt *too* much (or more accurately - too dumb to care), and while the Citation cockpit is small, at least I could climb out from time to time to stretch. But now that I'm old, I think 3 hours is probably my limit for any kind of GA situation.

For work, about a year ago I went over to the 777 after nine years of narrowbody flying. The leg length isn't really the problem - with a 3 or 4 person crew you're never in the seat for much more than 4 hours at a time, and of course we get up and move around, use the lav, etc. The bigger issue is that to take advantage of a long-haul schedule and maximize my time at home, I prefer to fly the longer legged trips, and ideally I'm leaving late on the front end and arriving early on the back end. It’s great for my family - I can fly a full schedule on fewer than 10 days of work per month - but that also means I'm spending a lot of time flying on the back side of the clock, which is hard on my body. The bunks are comfortable and I sleep well on the plane, but there's no way to land at home at 7am after being the air for 15 hours and not feel like garbage. I’m still new and experimenting with what works - trading into a ‘short’ Europe trip after a pair of longer ones seems to work well, even at the expense of schedule efficiency. Maybe I’ll even throw a reserve month into the mix every so often to stay at home.

Anyway, jury is still out. It really is an incredible airplane and hanging out in Barcelona sure beats Cleveland, but talk to me again in a few years to see how my body handles it. Some guys seem impervious to it - my last Captain has been flying widebodies for the last 30 years, retires in March, and he looks better than me at 20 years my senior. Others don’t fare so well. I suppose I can always bid back to the 737 if I begin to feel the wear and tear.

I almost bid the 787 this past summer when a vacancy bid showed me at 70%. Glad I didn't, cause I'd be close to 90% now and on reserve. I was a bit apprehensive about the long legs it did, and I wasn't sure how I would adapt to it coming from the NB, but the efficiency and commutability of the trips would have been awesome. I'm thinking of bidding the 757/767 next time it comes up just for the commutable trips alone. It will also be a good introduction into long haul flying for me, and I can figure out if I like it or not.

 

[kayoh190]

I almost bid the 787 this past summer when a vacancy bid showed me at 70%. Glad I didn't, cause I'd be close to 90% now and on reserve. I was a bit apprehensive about the long legs it did, and I wasn't sure how I would adapt to it coming from the NB, but the efficiency and commutability of the trips would have been awesome. I'm thinking of bidding the 757/767 next time it comes up just for the commutable trips alone. It will also be a good introduction into long haul flying for me, and I can figure out if I like it or not.

Yeah, so far the positives are outweighing the negatives, but it's only been a year. I wish I had gone to the 757/767 when I had the chance - would have been fun to fly!

 

[PaulS]

I almost bid the 787 this past summer when a vacancy bid showed me at 70%. Glad I didn't, cause I'd be close to 90% now and on reserve. I was a bit apprehensive about the long legs it did, and I wasn't sure how I would adapt to it coming from the NB, but the efficiency and commutability of the trips would have been awesome. I'm thinking of bidding the 757/767 next time it comes up just for the commutable trips alone. It will also be a good introduction into long haul flying for me, and I can figure out if I like it or not.

Ok, I read this twice, but still don't understand it all. Vacancy bid? 70% , 90%? NB? Commutability? Commutable trips? I did get the last sentence though, lol.

 

[Spinka]

I'm in the process of returning to narrow body after 7,5 years 777. Loved it and will miss it for sure.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Long haul flying takes some figuring out. Most people seem to need different ways to cope. A workout on every layover was essential to me. My crash pad in EWR had a good gym in the garage. So I always used it in-between trips as well. The last thing I would want to do was workout after a long haul. But just getting the blood stirring cleared your mind and helped you sleep restfully in time zones your body didn't recognize. Been retired almost 5 yrs now, and my body clock is still screwed up. I doubt it will ever recover. It's also amazing how your digestion is effected. My body doesn't seem to like dinner foods for breakfast and breakfast food for dinner. Try several back to back middle east trips followed by an Asia trip all strung together. Your body will hate you! Going north and south seems to be easier, but not by much

 

[Lindberg]

Heard of Athens, Georgia, and this was Paris, TX. And my inner juvenile giggled at each mention of “Cox Field” or “Paris Cox” which totally doesn’t sound like “pair of Cox.”

You're missing out of you don't also visit Athens, Rhome, Florence, Warsaw, Naples, London, and Italy, Texas.

 

[Groundpounder]

Yeah, so far the positives are outweighing the negatives, but it's only been a year. I wish I had gone to the 757/767 when I had the chance - would have been fun to fly!

Every time I sit on the jumpseat on the 757 I'm impressed with the blend of new and old, and the performance. The Atari Ferrari is an appropriate nickname.

 

[Rich Holt]

I have more than a hundred 6-hour flights that entailed about 8 hours in the seat total. 6 hours spent with the right side of my body at a higher elevation than my left, 1 out of 10, do not recommend. There really is no question as to why I have degenerative disc disease. It is well documented in my flight logs. I think 3 hours is my new max with a stipulation that my body remains level from side to side.

 

[Skyrys62]

I take long breaks between legs.

 

[Groundpounder]

Ok, I read this twice, but still don't understand it all. Vacancy bid? 70% , 90%? NB? Commutability? Commutable trips? I did get the last sentence though, lol.

1. A vacancy bid is when the airline needs people to fill slots on different airplanes in different bases. For example, Newark based 737 copilot, San Fransisco based 777 Captain, etc. They are required to offer them to current pilots first. If they go unfilled after a certain amount of time, those slots can be offered to new hires.
2. The percentages are seniority. If I am at 80% seniority in my base and seat, i.e. EWR based 737 copilot, that means that 19% of the other EWR based copilots are junior to me. That means better schedule, less likely to be on reserve, etc. There is also company wide seniority, i.e. every pilot in every base.
3. NB = Narrowbody, i.e. 737 and Airbus.
4. Commutability is generally a trip that starts late enough in the day that you can commute to work on your first day of work, and ends early enough that you can commute home on your last day of work. For example, a trip that leaves your base at 4pm, and gets you back to your base however many days later at 8am is commutable on both ends. If your trip starts too early to catch a flight from where you live, and you have to fly in the night before and stay at a hotel isn't commutable at the start. All of this is moot if you live in your base, i.e. you drive to work.

Generally widebody trips leave late in the day, and get back early in the day, which makes them more commutable. Narrowbody trips seem to either start early, or end late, or both, and aren't as commutable.

Hopefully this clears it up a little bit, I'm still trying to learn all this stuff myself.

 

[PaulS]

1. A vacancy bid is when the airline needs people to fill slots on different airplanes in different bases. For example, Newark based 737 copilot, San Fransisco based 777 Captain, etc. They are required to offer them to current pilots first. If they go unfilled after a certain amount of time, those slots can be offered to new hires.
2. The percentages are seniority. If I am at 80% seniority in my base and seat, i.e. EWR based 737 copilot, that means that 19% of the other EWR based copilots are junior to me. That means better schedule, less likely to be on reserve, etc. There is also company wide seniority, i.e. every pilot in every base.
3. NB = Narrowbody, i.e. 737 and Airbus.
4. Commutability is generally a trip that starts late enough in the day that you can commute to work on your first day of work, and ends early enough that you can commute home on your last day of work. For example, a trip that leaves your base at 4pm, and gets you back to your base however many days later at 8am is commutable on both ends. If your trip starts too early to catch a flight from where you live, and you have to fly in the night before and stay at a hotel isn't commutable at the start. All of this is moot if you live in your base, i.e. you drive to work.

Generally widebody trips leave late in the day, and get back early in the day, which makes them more commutable. Narrowbody trips seem to either start early, or end late, or both, and aren't as commutable.

Hopefully this clears it up a little bit, I'm still trying to learn all this stuff myself.

Awesome write up groundpounder. Thank you, when I was a young pup, a long time ago, I wanted to be a military pilot and/or an airline pilot. Sat down with my high school guidance counselor and he told me you can't wear glasses and be a pilot... No internet, tough to research stuff like that for a kid back then, so I moved on. Would've been a good career, but I'm having fun in the little planes now.

 

[Groundpounder]

Awesome write up groundpounder. Thank you, when I was a young pup, a long time ago, I wanted to be a military pilot and/or an airline pilot. Sat down with my high school guidance counselor and he told me you can't wear glasses and be a pilot... No internet, tough to research stuff like that for a kid back then, so I moved on. Would've been a good career, but I'm having fun in the little planes now.

Glad what I typed made sense!

It's a fun job. I'm lucky to be where I am, but it sure took a lot of hard work and time.

 

[MattCW]

I have more than a hundred 6-hour flights that entailed about 8 hours in the seat total. 6 hours spent with the right side of my body at a higher elevation than my left, 1 out of 10, do not recommend. There really is no question as to why I have degenerative disc disease. It is well documented in my flight logs. I think 3 hours is my new max with a stipulation that my body remains level from side to side.

What would cause one side of your body to be so much higher than the other side?

 

[Rich Holt]

What would cause one side of your body to be so much higher than the other side?

You sit sideways in the plane. The nose is uphill.