I calculate that I need about 16-17 miles to get to 8500 given the plane's ROC data.
What type of plane are you flying? What performance data are you using?
Some things to keep in mind with the information published in the POH is its all based on a new aircraft with new airframe and new engine(s) performing in optimal conditions with near perfection in flying.
Most of us arent flying in brand new aircraft with new airframes and engines and while that sometimes means better than published performance, more often than not it means a decrease in performance. It might not seem like much of a drop in performance, especially at lower altitudes (whats 10fpm when you're climbing at near 800fpm) but as you get higher (or higher density altitude) the gap may widen and it suddenly starts to make a big difference. It may not be a big deal if you dont get the climb performance at sea level maybe at worse you clip an airspace which may just require a remedial action but at higher altitude airports you may just pay for it with your life.
Conditions also play their part (den. alt, temperature, humiditiy) and few of us have the ability to fly (in flight control, engine/power management, mixture managment, etc) the plane perfectly to the performance numbers
In my limited experience, I have always given my route to SoCal after I'm in the air, but I'll give this a shot when I call CD and see how it goes. Thanks for your input. The Coliseum Route is now my Plan A.
I like the idea of avoiding airspace complications over Burbank, and already being at the 8500 I'll use to get through the pass.
Personally, I liked your first idea better. The SFR requires no clearance through the BRAVO so you cant be denied or delayed and you only have to contact and establish comms with SOCAL on 124.6 on the far side of the SFR and SMO VOR to fly through the CHARLIE. You have 6 miles to establish comms and this should be really easy to do as you dont need to wait for authorization just acknowledgment of your callsign. If you want to climb to a higher altitude you can do so as soon as you're clear of the BRAVO and into the CHARLIE. I dont know how high you want to go up to but assuming you're headed over the GMN VOR, an altitude of 8500 will be sufficient to clear all obstacles and you have the better part of 50NM between the edge of the BRAVO and GORMAN VOR which should be more than enough time/distance to climb 4000' from 4500 to 8500 (you probably dont even need to be this high as the highest MEF on the sectional along the route is 8400 and thats only for the Gorman quadrant, everywhere else the MEF is 4200 or less and Tejon Pass itself is only 4239).
You will not get if it is a problem. They'll give you a crossing altitude and if you can't make it say unable - its not going to be a major problem climbing a 360 just outside the Bravo if thats what it takes - I think they'd rather have you at 6800 and climbing to 8500 on a straight line that being in a 360 or two right outside the Bravo . . .
While its unlikely that you'd be denied clearance through the BRAVO on a transition route it can certainly happen from time to time and far more frequently you may be delayed. This is especially true in your case as you'll need approval to climb into the BRAVO from FL070 to FL085, special approval to establish on the route below FL085 and the proximity of SNA to the BRAVO means they wont have much warning to start clearing a route for you.
If you do decide to go route, informing SNA CD is your best bet as they'll be able to start to grease the wheels before you're in the air. They'll let SOCAL know your intent so they can start planning accordingly.
As for climbing in or just outside the airspace, it really depends on the controller, the airspace type and the traffic. A CHARLIE controller is only required to provide target resolution and separation to IFR flights, for VFR, they only have to give traffic advisories and responsibility for VFR target resolution and separation is still in the hands of the pilot but a BRAVO controller is required to provide target resolution and separation to all flights IFR & VFR. For a CHARLIE controller, a straight line climb through the airspace is simple enough to accommodate but in BRAVO it means having to clear and provide separation to/from the traffic ahead and above you for as long as you are in the climb (which the controller has no way of knowing how long it will take) in the airspace, on the other hand, if you climb to altitude outside the BRAVO airspace the controller only needs to clear whats ahead of you, a far easier task..
Thanks MAKG1. I am going to plan out the Coastal Route as my alternative route in case SoCal won't let me climb into the Coliseum Route.
Glad to see you're already considering alternate routes. Other than the opinions I noted above, your Cliseum-route departure plan looks ok but be prepared to deviate from it... CD might clear some other departure path (maybe they have you turn left and establish on SLI 120 before contacting SOCAL for the BRAVO/route clearance) or the winds might dictate a take off to the west (this admittedly is unusual for the area but not entirely uncommon either) or maybe the BRAVO has you "remain clear" for a period. These are all things you should consider and be prepared to account for in some way.
Whenever I plan my flights, I always plan a "direct" departure/approach to the airport regardless of runway heading. I've had far too many plans of how and where and when and why I was going to climb at such and such point only to have to deviate because the winds weren't in the "normal" direction or the clearance I received was different than requested or I got stuck on a hold trying to enter a BRAVO.
Best 4 examples I can give of the above from my own experience:
1. Flying from KOQN to KWWD I had to pass through the KPHL BRAVO. As soon as I was airborne from KOQN I contacted KPHL approach and requested clearance through the bravo enroute to KWWD via the OOD VOR 336 Radial. I was instructed to "remain clear" and maintain a heading due South. By the time I got my clearance into/through the Bravo, I ended up establishing on OOD Radial 320 and was uncomfortably close to a large VIP TFR centered over ILG. Coming back from KACY on that same trip, I requested direct to KPTW (bearing 326) from ACY CD. They gave me a clearance that had me fly runway heading (310) all the way to PHL airspace 30NM away (the airspace was much different 2 years ago) together with wind drift, I ended up 20 miles south of where I wanted to be... Much closer to the OOD VOR than Camden Co Airport(19N). Thankfully the PHL approach controllers this time were super helpful in getting back to where I wanted to be, clearing me for a low pass sight-seeing trip over the city and making sure I was on my desired course.
2. Flying into KSAT (a class C airport with parallel runways) at night. I requested a quick-turn via 12R and was cleared by approach to make left traffic for 12R and handed off to tower, Tower requested I make left traffic for 12L instead and cleared me to land with the option. When I specified I intended to make a touch-and-go they proceeded to have me skip-base and dog leg my way in direct to final from my downwind.
3. Flying from KOQN to KCXY I had planned a nice 500fpm descent out of 6500 from checkpoint Columbia into the airport. A receive issue with my number 1 radio had me maintain altitude while working the problem rather than descend into the TRSA and class D. When I resolved the Comm problems, I was over the airport at 6500' and got to do a much more jarring descent of 1000-1500fpm.
4. Flying into KBAZ in light wind conditions, tower gave me the option to land on RWY 13 or RWY 17. I took RWY 13, after landing tower had me back taxi on RWY13 and takeoff directly on RWY 17 (I didnt clear 13 until already in my takeoff roll). Neither the landing or the takeoff could have been entirely planned for.
The first instance was the biggest learning experience. I was a newly minted PPL (I was still on my temp certificate and the ink was barely dry) visiting home (got my PPL in SAT). It was my first foray into BRAVO airspace, my first turn through a CHARLIE requiring I contact CD before departure and it was all done with VOR/Pilotage/Dead-reckoning (no GPS in the plan I flew). The workload was intense and I learned a lot. At the time, I was still still "planning" every part of the flight all the way down to my exact departure/arrival path but the sheer number of deviations on this one trip taught me a valuable lesson about getting lost in the weeds during flight planning. I had planned everything to such detail that I struggled to cope with necessary deviations.
Im not advocating a gung-ho style flight planning here, you still need to plan your fix points, plot your course, calculate for wind correction, etc but by the same token, dont plan on your flight going exactly according to plan either as you'll find yourself in trouble... Similar with course deviations
That's one of the nice things about using a VOR as a fix point when doing VFR navigation that in my opinion is superiour to GPS from a course intercept perspecitve, its extremely easy to change your radial and track into a VOR (GPS or no GPS) and get right back on your course after a deviation.
1) Is it realistic to anticipate a northbound transition through Burnbank’s charlie, flying above the 405 freeway (aka Sepulveda Pass), while remaining at 4500?
2) If I have flight following before entering the SFRA, will SoCal Approach give me a frequency when they tell me to squawk 1201 so that I can promptly continue with flight following after exiting the north side of the SFRA over KSMO? If yes, will I re-enter the same squawk as before, or get a new one?
3) Or, if I’m just squawking VFR, will I need to ask Burbank Tower for the transition during the 5 NM segment between KSMO and the south edge of Burnank’s charlie?
4) Or, should I just climb up a little bit to 4900 after exiting the SFRA, and skirt just below the 5000 foot bravo floor until I'm clear of it, and then continue on above the top of Burbank’s 4800 foot charlie?
1. Yes absolutely, in fact this is the easiest route. Once in the Charie, you can maintain 4500 or climb/descend to some other altitude even if it takes you out of the charlie.
2. Although unlikely, they may continue flight following through the SFR in which case you can expect a handoff to the next controller. In the event you or they terminate radar services, approve a frequency change and have you squawk 1200, then you will need to know the appropriate frequency for the next radio contact. ATC can have you change your (Ive had the same controller have me squawk 3 different codes) at anytime for any reason though usually you get to keep the same code between handoffs. Since you are not being handed off however, you should anticipate a new transponder code.
3. Unlike class D where you contact the tower first, 99% of the time, when coming upon a class C or B airspace, your first point of contact will be an approach controller not the tower. The approach controller will hand you over to tower only when appropriate which is usually only if you intend to land at that airport (they may estabish you on final before turning you over). The approach controller may hand you over to different approach/departure controllers depending on their zone and when you cross out of it.
In this case, you'll actually reach out to SOCAL approach on 124.6 during the 5 NM segment between KSMO and the south edge of Burnank’s charlie. You only need to establish 2 way comms (listen for your call sign to be read back to you) to enter the charlie, you dont need approval and if they need you to change to a different controller/frequency, they'll usually tell you what to change to.
As for the 1% of the time where contacting a Class C or B tower directly is appropriate... The most common exceptions I can think of are:
A. Taking off from a satellite airport within the surface area of a towered airport
B. When charts, notams or other procedures instruct you to do so (i.e. the LAX mini-route when open and Hawthorne TWR is closed).
C. You should contact tower when you need to transition through a surface area and have not previously contacted a controller. Its bad form to drop in on a tower unexpectedly though so when able/logical for the airspace you should use appropriate approach frequencies especially if you intend to land at that airport.
4. This is a bad idea for many reasons... A small thermal, moment of inattention, altimeter error or transponder error may have you busting the BRAVO airspace. Separation becomes an issue as well since VFR normally flies the x500's while IFR flights fly the x000's as this provides at least 500 feet vertical separation between VFR/IFR in the case of the LAX Bravo, you can expect them to put flights on IFR Flights at FL050 without hesitation expecting you to follow the rules and remain clear. Since we're at it, while flying the SFR, you should get and set the latest altimeter setting from LAX into your altimeter before transiting the route and you should fly it to PTS standards (no more than +/- 100 ft the assigned altitude for your heading) as LAX will vector planes around you in accordance with the published altitudes for the SFR.
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