t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
Okay, this topic has been endlessly debated in many forums in the past, and I thought I had a good handle on it, but then I was having a discussion with Ric (colomtnflyer) and Clint (ATCT) one evening and they were insisting that my understanding is incorrect.
Here's the situation - I do a lot of flying with my mentor pilot in his Bonanza, much of the time he allows me to take the controls except for takeoff and landing (for insurance reasons). I am a private pilot, and I do not have my complex or high performance endorsements. I was under the impression that since FAR 61.51 states:
I would be able to log the time that I am the sole manipulator of the controls since I am rated for ASEL, despite not having a complex and high performance endorsements. Ric and Clint tell me that I am incorrect, and that I need the endorsements to log PIC time. I can log that as total time, and time in type for insurance reasons in the future, but not PIC time that can be used for an additional rating (which really stinks, because I have about 4+ hrs in the past month of X-C PIC time in that plane logged thus far, which I was hoping to use towards my instrument rating).
It's not that I don't believe these two upstanding gentlemen (who are more experienced than me), but after re-reading the FAR's, I don't see what is keeping me from logging this PIC time. Does it have something to do with the "or has privileges" clause at the end of 61.51(e)(1)(i)? That wouldn't make sense to me as it says, "any aircraft for which the pilot is rated OR has privileges." The "or" indicates that either of those conditions must be met, and as I am rated for ASEL (complex/hi-perf are not ratings, they are endorsements), that first condition is met.
Yes, I realize that the way to avoid all of this mess is to just get my endorsements, then I don't have to worry about this - but, I simply don't have the cash at the moment (the gf and I just bought a house) to go do that. I'm more curious now as to whether my reading of this is correct. I appreciate the input (and Ric/Clint - nothing personal, I'm just confused still).
Here's the situation - I do a lot of flying with my mentor pilot in his Bonanza, much of the time he allows me to take the controls except for takeoff and landing (for insurance reasons). I am a private pilot, and I do not have my complex or high performance endorsements. I was under the impression that since FAR 61.51 states:
e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
I would be able to log the time that I am the sole manipulator of the controls since I am rated for ASEL, despite not having a complex and high performance endorsements. Ric and Clint tell me that I am incorrect, and that I need the endorsements to log PIC time. I can log that as total time, and time in type for insurance reasons in the future, but not PIC time that can be used for an additional rating (which really stinks, because I have about 4+ hrs in the past month of X-C PIC time in that plane logged thus far, which I was hoping to use towards my instrument rating).
It's not that I don't believe these two upstanding gentlemen (who are more experienced than me), but after re-reading the FAR's, I don't see what is keeping me from logging this PIC time. Does it have something to do with the "or has privileges" clause at the end of 61.51(e)(1)(i)? That wouldn't make sense to me as it says, "any aircraft for which the pilot is rated OR has privileges." The "or" indicates that either of those conditions must be met, and as I am rated for ASEL (complex/hi-perf are not ratings, they are endorsements), that first condition is met.
Yes, I realize that the way to avoid all of this mess is to just get my endorsements, then I don't have to worry about this - but, I simply don't have the cash at the moment (the gf and I just bought a house) to go do that. I'm more curious now as to whether my reading of this is correct. I appreciate the input (and Ric/Clint - nothing personal, I'm just confused still).