Logbook Question: "Cross Country - All"

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Now that my commercial pilot rating is done, I'm using some of the downtime before the CFI Academy to do an audit of my logbook into a spread sheet. Filling out the IACRA 8710 last week pointed out a few areas where I wasn't recording time the best way, so I want a "fresh start" with more accurate numbers for future IACRAs

Anyhow, my first logbook (from the Gleim pilot kit) has two headings in the Cross Country Column for the "type of time" area: "ALL" and "OVER 50 NM"

I just put my time into the "Over 50 NM" column since that's the essential definition of cross country for the FAA.

But where would someone else use the "ALL" column?
 
I put over 25nm in the all column because I think you need that for Part 135.

But it's really supposed to be for anytime you takeoff at one airport and land at another.
 
Probably should always record XC as "ALL" and the over 50 when more than 50. The 50 number is only for use towards certificate or ratings, IIRC.

Probably clarified in one of those CFI books you'll be reading.
 
I use ALL for any flight that landed at another airport, even if it is across the street. So I have a column for two of the definitions of cross country. You could also add an ATP 50nm column if you do any round robin flights from the same airport.
 
Technically anytime you land somewhere else than you took off from counts as a cross-country flight.. but certain ratings require to be over 50 nautical miles, so the two columns make sense..
 
I looked it up. I was half-right about part 135 minimums.

The 500 XC for those minimums doesn't even have a nautical mile limit. So that "ALL" column will be useful if you ever need a total accounting of all your XC time for a job. The 50nm stipulation is just for ratings.
 
Mike, the reference is 61.1, "Definitions".

61.1 has the basic definition of XC as anytime you land at a point different than you departed from. I find this nitpickingly interesting, because it say "point", not "airport" or any other specific term. Well, I took off from runway 17 and landed on 35, those are different "points"! :)

61.1 also has how far the XC has to be to count for various ratings - 50 nm for airplanes, 25 nm for helicopters, etc, ATP doesn't require a landing but has to go 50 nm, etc.

135.243 has the requirements for 135 pilots. In here, they just use the term "XC". So it just has to meet the basic definition. Since many new commercial pilots may want to fly 135 some day, this is a good thing to track (and fits in your "XC ALL" column).

Aren't you using myFlightBook? I'm pretty sure it takes care of those calculations, but I haven't looked in a while.

EDIT - yes, it does. Under Training/Ratings Progress/Part 135 Ratings (they aren't really ratings, but he had to put them somewhere).
 
RussR said:
Mike, the reference is 61.1, "Definitions".

61.1 has the basic definition of XC as anytime you land at a point different than you departed from. I find this nitpickingly interesting, because it say "point", not "airport" or any other specific term. Well, I took off from runway 17 and landed on 35, those are different "points"! :)
Click to expand...

Silly non sea-plane people, thinking only about airports. :D
 
I think Mike needs to give some thought to this: If you have an off field landing 60nm from takeoff, is it cross country time?

Anyway, the definitions haven't changed in my lifetime. Any more need for this thread?
 
EdFred said:
Silly non sea-plane people, thinking only about airports. :D
Click to expand...
Silly non-seaplane, non-glider, non-hayfield, non-....

Heck, even the jets I fly have a procedure in the event of an “off-airport landing”.
 
Agree with RussR.

Use the "All" column for any flight that satisfies this FAR 61.1 definition, notice no distance requirement:

Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

For ATP, notice that you don't have to include a landing 50 NM from the point of departure. Fly out past 50 NM and fly back and land at the original airport and it counts as XC time toward ATP aeronautical experience (also for a military pilot see vii)

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.​

Note that for instrument & commercial aeronautical experience, safety pilot time during a XC flight doesn't count toward the XC experience cause you can't be safety pilot during the required landing. Plenty of legal interps regarding that.
 
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RussR said:
Aren't you using myFlightBook? I'm pretty sure it takes care of those calculations, but I haven't looked in a while.

EDIT - yes, it does. Under Training/Ratings Progress/Part 135 Ratings (they aren't really ratings, but he had to put them somewhere).
Click to expand...
Yes... But generating new spreadsheet and doing an audit of my book. About 50% the way through and have found a few errors and omissions.
 
I entered mine into a spreadsheet a couple months ago. It was a fun way to reminisce.

I found this thread interesting. I honestly can't remember what criteria I was using back in the day for my logbook, but looking now it's clear that I was counting "another airport". I have tons of flights that landed at one or more other airports in the 'neighborhood' that I did not log as XC.

Re. the 50 mile thing. I seem to recall a different number for student pilot working towards PPL. After the checkride it changed to 50. Am I wrong on that? it's been a while since I was up on the FARs
Looking at the logbook, I see that before my PPL checkride all flights landing at a different airport were logged XC....
 
Brad W said:
I entered mine into a spreadsheet a couple months ago. It was a fun way to reminisce.

I found this thread interesting. I honestly can't remember what criteria I was using back in the day for my logbook, but looking now it's clear that I was counting "another airport". I have tons of flights that landed at one or more other airports in the 'neighborhood' that I did not log as XC.

Re. the 50 mile thing. I seem to recall a different number for student pilot working towards PPL. After the checkride it changed to 50. Am I wrong on that? it's been a while since I was up on the FARs
Looking at the logbook, I see that before my PPL checkride all flights landing at a different airport were logged XC....
Click to expand...
It’s been 50 miles since the early 1980s at least.
 
Brad W said:
I entered mine into a spreadsheet a couple months ago. It was a fun way to reminisce.

I found this thread interesting. I honestly can't remember what criteria I was using back in the day for my logbook, but looking now it's clear that I was counting "another airport". I have tons of flights that landed at one or more other airports in the 'neighborhood' that I did not log as XC.

Re. the 50 mile thing. I seem to recall a different number for student pilot working towards PPL. After the checkride it changed to 50. Am I wrong on that? it's been a while since I was up on the FARs
Looking at the logbook, I see that before my PPL checkride all flights landing at a different airport were logged XC....
Click to expand...

You might be thinking of a particular endorsement a student pilot needs to go to an airport >25NM away.....

61.93 Solo cross-country flight requirements.
(a) General. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a student pilot must meet the requirements of this section before—

(i) Conducting a solo cross-country flight, or any flight greater than 25 nautical miles from the airport from where the flight originated.
 
Ravioli said:
I think Mike needs to give some thought to this: If you have an off field landing 60nm from takeoff, is it cross country time?
Click to expand...

I logged mine as XC (as our "arrival" was more than 50nm from point of departure), however I put a 0 in the landings column since the aircraft was uanble to depart again.
 
Ravioli said:
I think Mike needs to give some thought to this: If you have an off field landing 60nm from takeoff, is it cross country time?

Anyway, the definitions haven't changed in my lifetime. Any more need for this thread?
Click to expand...

FAR 61.1
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
 
IACRA pains me but it’s good to fill it all out. Up until now, all my ratings CSEL / CMEL / MEI / CFII - I have always entered my cross country time and only logged “XC” as flights over 50nm... About 380 hours roughy of my total 1200. At this point would I be wise to total a new column in my book for “All XC” activates, and create a new total for those hours too? Counting those on a new 8710, or leave the 8710 to only 50nm XC’s?
 
You can always look at your route and determine if other airports were involved, after part 135 minimums it won’t matter. And it would only matter then if you needed that xc time to cross the threshold vs the 50nm used elsewhere.
 
Craigd31 said:
You might be thinking of a particular endorsement a student pilot needs to go to an airport >25NM away.....
Click to expand...
yes, I think that's what I was remembering.
Looking closer, it looks like as a student it was still only logging flights >50
 
My many thousands of hours CFI eyeballed me once messing around trying to get IACRA perfect for one of the many ratings rides and said...

“You have enough hours. It doesn’t care if you fill out the other fields. Save it and get a life.” LOL.

There’s one purpose of that database beyond checkrides. Backup of your logbook.

And if you aren’t already taking photos of the real one and backing up the electronic one at least twice in two places, you might need IACRA to pull your dumb ass out of the fire.

And I mean really really dumb.

Wasting time with one of the worst user interfaces in aviation isn’t worth it. Getting your logbook straight for yourself or a future employer is fine and not a waste of time.

Punch in what it wants, have proper totals and flags in your logbook for the examiner so their life isn’t wasted waiting on you to find things. Go flying.
 
Skymac said:
IACRA pains me but it’s good to fill it all out. Up until now, all my ratings CSEL / CMEL / MEI / CFII - I have always entered my cross country time and only logged “XC” as flights over 50nm... About 380 hours roughy of my total 1200. At this point would I be wise to total a new column in my book for “All XC” activates, and create a new total for those hours too? Counting those on a new 8710, or leave the 8710 to only 50nm XC’s?
Click to expand...

Agree with ja_user. If you plan to go to the airlines or fly professionally is where the "All XC" might matter...depending on how they may want to define XC time.

Another scenario might be if you plan to get your ATP since the FAR definition for ATP XC aeronautical experience is slightly different than the FAR definition for instrument/commercial XC aeronautical experience (see my post above)....and if you can figure it out from your logbook.

One question that still lingers for me is whether safety pilot time acquired during a XC flight can be counted toward ATP XC time since the FAA ATP definition of XC time doesn't include a landing and just references "time acquired during a flight". The legal interps I've read seem to all address instrument/commercial XC experience, toward which safety pilot time cannot count because their definition includes a landing.
 
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My electronic logbook will do it, so I don't worry about it. But I don't make a spot in my paper logbook.

It is well known that ATP XC time does not require landings. This is to help guys to military conversions. Track it seperate if you have much of that time.
They may fly 10k miles away and come back to the same base.
 
Never logged Juneau to Gustavus as a cross country flight, 48.3 miles. Doesn't matter to me not looking at a rating that it would matter. It would take a lot of white out to correct the logbook....:rolleyes:
 
Skymac said:
IACRA pains me but it’s good to fill it all out. Up until now, all my ratings CSEL / CMEL / MEI / CFII - I have always entered my cross country time and only logged “XC” as flights over 50nm... About 380 hours roughy of my total 1200. At this point would I be wise to total a new column in my book for “All XC” activates, and create a new total for those hours too? Counting those on a new 8710, or leave the 8710 to only 50nm XC’s?
Click to expand...
The 8710 is only interested in the flights which count for the certificate or rating you are applying for. The general recommendation to fill in "everything" is contemplating a baseline for logbook loss but in this day and age, as @denverpilot said, that should not be relevant.

Besides, the 8710 doesn't have "everything" anyway. It is a lousy backup to begin with if you lose your logbook. Nothing about when you had your last FR. No information on high performance, complex, or tailwheel to help your insurance rates or show qualification. Way too many things it doesn't track.
 
Craigd31 said:
One question that still lingers for me is whether safety pilot time acquired during a XC flight can be counted toward ATP XC time since the FAA ATP definition of XC time doesn't include a landing and just references "time acquired during a flight". The legal interps I've read seem to all address instrument/commercial XC experience, toward which safety pilot time cannot count because their definition includes a landing.
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I will go out on a limb and say that, based in the Chief Counsel's series on the subject, the pilot who logs the entire flight including the takeoff and the landing, is the only one who may log the time. The ATP, no landing at the remote point, doesn't mean there doesn't have to be a landing in order to be a "flight".

of course, since that series is about a policy decision more than pure interpretation, the FAA might be interested in a break for ATP. They don't necessarily have to be consistent.
 
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