Logbook Legitimacy?

L

Logbook Wizard

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Question, how are my logbook entries verified during an airline interview or check ride?

Let’s say for example someone logs a few bogus flights from A to B as cross country time, or tacks on a little extra time to various flights here and there. Is it likely to get caught and if so, how?
 
Honestly the risk of getting caught is probably low. But the consequences of getting caught are high. I have seen people get caught in the craziest of ways, and they lose everything if the FAA finds out. If one entry is suspect, then they all are, the entire logbook is gone, as are any certificates as well. Falsifying logbook entries is also a Federal violation and could lead to heavy fines to top it off.

One story I recall, an intrepid young aviator working the line would use tail numbers he fueled to pad his time with. He happened to capture the tail number of the examiner's airplane.
 
Probably the risk of getting caught is low unless there’s something that looks really off like a 50 mile flight and you logged 6 hours total time and 7 hours of actual instrument.
 
I have a hard time imagining anyone really disecting the details...the routing...etc... unless it's an accident investigation
but
I'll bet those that do look at them regularly, such as examiners or airlines probably know the trick and things will jump out that I never would notice....
 
When you have up to a few hundred people riding behind you, it isn't the place to cut corners. If you can't put in the time and hard work to earn your qualifications, go find another path that doesn't involve others putting their trust in your ability. This is the wrong industry for that.
 
If it was a big enough padding that someone wanted to dig into it, or got the FAA looking at it.

Take the N number, request maintenance logs, look at aircraft times before and after the flights in question took place, take that number and compare to the logbook, if theogbook flew more than the ship, problems.

If it’s close, request who else flew the plane, compare to their logs, cross check with the aircraft time.

It would have to be a pretty big padding of the log to warrant that type of audit, however if caught it would be a very bad outcome for the pilot in question.

Plus if the person didn’t have the experience it would probably be obvious during the interview and interview initial flight, shy of them being like this guy :)

 
8E6E59BF-976A-47D7-B864-4BF989481157.gif

Not today Mr FAA Man
 
Lindberg said:
Say what?
Click to expand...

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

For any violation of regulations, the FAA may take certificate action against you and impose civil fines.
 
Logbook Wizard said:
Question, how are my logbook entries verified during an airline interview or check ride?

Let’s say for example someone logs a few bogus flights from A to B as cross country time, or tacks on a little extra time to various flights here and there. Is it likely to get caught and if so, how?
Click to expand...

On every practical test and every FAA flight check, the DPE or the FAA inspector will review entries in your logbook. If they see entries that seem suspicious they will notify FAA security. If it is determined you falsified a logbook, the FAA will suspend all your certificates under their emergency authority and refer you for felony criminal charges for fraud.

https://upperlimitaviation.edu/danger-falsified-pilot-logbook/
 
Lol 10/10 awesome post
 
I am acquainted with a notable pilot who, in his current career, assists in representation of defendant companies following crashes. Ie Crash->Lawsuit against Raytheon/Cessna/Lycoming/CAT/P&W et al.
During one of his talks, he discusses how one of his tasks is to drill down to the truth....including pilot accreditations. (was the pilot certificated, rated, current, etc - all in great detail)
He has been able to quite easily show logbook entries or entire logbooks that are totally fictional. "pilot claimed 50hrs actual imc when in fact the weather archives for those days show no such weather anywhere along the routes in question" as a common example.

If he can do this, you know the FAA can.

Then there is the whole "can I live with THIS lie?" and "if I lie about this, at what point will I say, I cannot lie about further aviation things?"
 
A small amount of padding one's logbook is very unlikely to be detected, but is insignificant in getting hired. A large amount of padding will be revealed in due time, often because the skills don't match the logbook.
 
A great deal of things in aviation are effectively on the honor system. If you somehow get caught woe be unto you but it's rare that anyone actually checks a lot of things.
 
I know someone whose friend (well he thought he was a friend), ratted him out.
 
midwestpa24 said:
61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

For any violation of regulations, the FAA may take certificate action against you and impose civil fines.
Click to expand...
(a) No person may make or cause to be made: . . .
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part; . . . .
Click to expand...
90% of my logbook entries would not fall under this regulation. It's not true as a general rule that making up logbook entries is a violation. And the reg specifically states violations are subject to certificate action. It's not criminal as you implied.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I am acquainted with a notable pilot who, in his current career, assists in representation of defendant companies following crashes. Ie Crash->Lawsuit against Raytheon/Cessna/Lycoming/CAT/P&W et al.
During one of his talks, he discusses how one of his tasks is to drill down to the truth....including pilot accreditations. (was the pilot certificated, rated, current, etc - all in great detail)
He has been able to quite easily show logbook entries or entire logbooks that are totally fictional. "pilot claimed 50hrs actual imc when in fact the weather archives for those days show no such weather anywhere along the routes in question" as a common example.

If he can do this, you know the FAA can.

Then there is the whole "can I live with THIS lie?" and "if I lie about this, at what point will I say, I cannot lie about further aviation things?"
Click to expand...

So he knows there is no IMC along the route? ATC can’t even guarantee that.
 
The logbook is all honor code. Are there pilots out there with a lot of pencil whipped hours, absolutely. Are some of those pilots working for the airlines, yes they are. Will they ever get caught, most likely not. Are they scumbags for lying about their experience, and lack all integrity, yes they are.
 
Lindberg said:
90% of my logbook entries would not fall under this regulation. It's not true as a general rule that making up logbook entries is a violation. And the reg specifically states violations are subject to certificate action. It's not criminal as you implied.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure fraud is criminal.
 
Somehow itd come out. Remember it's a secret if only you know it. Tell one person it no longer a secret.

I mean the faa investigated a poa member because of a joke he made on here in one of his parody videos.
 
Lindberg said:
90% of my logbook entries would not fall under this regulation. It's not true as a general rule that making up logbook entries is a violation. And the reg specifically states violations are subject to certificate action. It's not criminal as you implied.
Click to expand...

Would you like to point out where I said it was criminal? I said falsifying entries is a violation. Is it not? Read my first post again.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
"pilot claimed 50hrs actual imc when in fact the weather archives for those days show no such weather anywhere along the routes in question" as a common example.
Click to expand...

I actually see obviously incorrect IMC figures quite often. I did an IPC for a guy that had something like 600 total hours and 300 of "actual". He thought any time you were on an IFR flight plan, you logged that as "actual". (The heading in his logbook might have been different, I don't remember.)

As far as I could determine, it was an honest misunderstanding, probably caused by a former instructor. And I've seen it numerous times, so there is some bad misunderstanding out there (about something I always thought was obvious, not like the "logging PIC/acting PIC" confusion).

If I see an amount of actual IFR that's more than about 10% of their total time, that starts to get suspicious. For my clientele (which is mostly aircraft owners who generally fly for fun) and in my area, it happens, but rarely.
 
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RussR said:
I actually see obviously incorrect IMC figures quite often. I did an IPC for a guy that had something like 600 total hours and 300 of "actual". He thought any time you were on an IFR flight plan, you logged that as "actual". (The heading in his logbook might have been different, I don't remember.)

As far as I could determine, it was an honest misunderstanding, probably caused by a former instructor.

If I see an amount of actual IFR that's more than about 10% of their total time, that starts to get suspicious. For my clientele (which is mostly aircraft owners who generally fly for fun) and in my area, it happens, but rarely.
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I have just under 400 hours of actual and just shy of 8k total. About 4K of the total is working 121/135. I always doubted the 10% rule of thumb but it has proven to be rather accurate.
 
Logbook Wizard said:
Question, how are my logbook entries verified during an airline interview or check ride?

Let’s say for example someone logs a few bogus flights from A to B as cross country time, or tacks on a little extra time to various flights here and there. Is it likely to get caught and if so, how?
Click to expand...

Having done interviews in the past, there are ways to check times against each other and verify flights.

While some on here are arguing what is a criminal background violation, the FAR’s also require you to be of good moral character. I’m pretty sure falsifying logbooks violates being a good moral character.


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I think most red flags come from the applicants background that is associated with the claimed hours. An applicant with no previous commercial or military background but has a crapload of hours will be suspicious. How’d they get the time? Renting? Doubtful.

I know of a guy who bought a helo and racked up useless hours to get hired but that’s really the exception. Most coming up the pipeline have either got to go CFI or military. Most CFIs are flying their butts off and it’s virtually impossible to pad a logbook in the military because of the scrutiny of peers / maintenance.
 
It's incredible how much of aviation is honor code based.

Is your medical current?
Have you done your 3 landings in the last 90 days? What about those 6 approaches with a hold?
Are you being truthful with your hours, or are those 1.2 hr legs turning into 1.5 hr legs?
File IFR, is anyone checking that you're actually rated?
Staying VMC while flying VFR

It's crazy. And the chances of getting caught, especially if you're a private aviator, is remarkably tiny I imagine. But, as noted above.. all you need is 1 dubious logbook entry to call all of it into question and there goes your flying passion, and possibly career

BTW, with the proliferation of ADSB it's not that hard to proof check entries now. Grab a few entries and verify the flight times against what ADSB shows.. even allowances for taxi, etc., if there's a glaring difference (like 1.2 vs 2.3) that will stand out.

Don't do it.
 
^one area that gets a ton of padding I imagine is safety pilot work. Frankly, logging that time is already suspect (in my opinion) but I'm sure are plenty of people who log the whole flight, not just the part the buddy was under the hood.
 
Tantalum said:
^one area that gets a ton of padding I imagine is safety pilot work. Frankly, logging that time is already suspect (in my opinion) but I'm sure are plenty of people who log the whole flight, not just the part the buddy was under the hood.
Click to expand...

I think that’s probably up there with right seat King Air time. Can’t tell you how many times in my career I’ve seen some one with a ton of King Air time and they can’t pass a simulator eval or training for a type rating. Then we find out they only operated the gear and radios, never the controls.


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Tantalum said:
It's incredible how much of aviation is honor code based.
Click to expand...
Laughing, I've always felt that most pilots are honorable. I guess it is all about your upbringing. Just do the right thing, it's always easier to tell the truth.
 
Fracpilot said:
I think that’s probably up there with right seat King Air time. Can’t tell you how many times in my career I’ve seen some one with a ton of King Air time and they can’t pass a simulator eval or training for a type rating. Then we find out they only operated the gear and radios, never the controls.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Most of the safety pilot time I've come across is legit. I've heard of logging SIC in King Airs with no regulatory basis at all and wonder how prevalent that is,
 
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