Local FBO Problem - ACE AVIATION KHAI

[k5beason]

Encountered my first problem with an FBO. I met with Derick at Ace Aviation in Three Rivers Michigan to discuss possibly doing my CFI-Initial. After about an hour talk I was convinced and thus deposited 500.00 into a flight account. I received an aircraft checkout in there Cherokee and was left with about 300.00 and was to come back once I had the writtens done. Upon completion I called, and was promised a call back, called again no call back, finally got a tentive schedule with a different instructor (Originally Derick was going to do all of my training). After talking with the new instructor Mike we were going to meet, of course they could not meet at the airport they wanted me to meet at the public library. I had reservations and decided not to go and gave them a 24hour notice as Mike has never done a CFI initial and has not been instructing for several years. A few hours later got a call from Derick apologizing and saying he would do my training that he would call me back tomorrow which would have been a Thursday. No phone call back so I altered my plans. Saturday I get a text about 1030 saying hey lets meet at school craft library at 11am. I was fed up and thus didn't reply.

I have 300 left in my flight account, so today check the schedule see its clear give them a call to schedule and they tell me its booked, I check the schedule again still clear, 10 minutes later its magically booked all day today and wen the two days that look flyable. Derick informs him that I have 72 dollars left in my flight account and that if I don't use it for flying it becomes theirs.

What do I do? Do I have a case for small claims? I only deposited 500.00 into the account and did the checkout to pursue my CFI. I made several attempts to schedule but they never once got back to me unless I called back. Part of the reason for choosing them was the assurance of a students waiting for me upon my completion. I think I got hosed through the whole situation.

 

[Doggtyred]

Encountered my first problem with an FBO. I met with Derick at Ace Aviation in Three Rivers Michigan to discuss possibly doing my CFI-Initial. After about an hour talk I was convinced and thus deposited 500.00 into a flight account. I received an aircraft checkout in there Cherokee and was left with about 300.00 and was to come back once I had the writtens done. Upon completion I called, and was promised a call back, called again no call back, finally got a tentive schedule with a different instructor (Originally Derick was going to do all of my training). After talking with the new instructor Mike we were going to meet, of course they could not meet at the airport they wanted me to meet at the public library. I had reservations and decided not to go and gave them a 24hour notice as Mike has never done a CFI initial and has not been instructing for several years. A few hours later got a call from Derick apologizing and saying he would do my training that he would call me back tomorrow which would have been a Thursday. No phone call back so I altered my plans. Saturday I get a text about 1030 saying hey lets meet at school craft library at 11am. I was fed up and thus didn't reply.

I have 300 left in my flight account, so today check the schedule see its clear give them a call to schedule and they tell me its booked, I check the schedule again still clear, 10 minutes later its magically booked all day today and wen the two days that look flyable. Derick informs him that I have 72 dollars left in my flight account and that if I don't use it for flying it becomes theirs.

What do I do? Do I have a case for small claims? I only deposited 500.00 into the account and did the checkout to pursue my CFI. I made several attempts to schedule but they never once got back to me unless I called back. Part of the reason for choosing them was the assurance of a students waiting for me upon my completion. I think I got hosed through the whole situation.

You speak with the manager or owner and get them to put in writing what caused your account to drop - It can be a receipt - you are entitled to that.

As for legal action.. without any written documentation on either part its an exercise in he said/she said and who is more believable.

 

[k5beason]

Derick is the owner. He said he will be mailing me a statement. I offered to go to Three Rivers to pick it up, but he has moved his office to Cold water which is over an hour drive from me.

It's a few hundred dollars, life will go on. I just feel like it'd be much easier and the right thing to do would be to refund my money. He hasn't earned it, I'd pay a small fee for him to cut me the check, I just don't find it worth my time to call 4 times a week every week to get lessons scheduled and for us to meet in a library when I do.

 

[RoscoeT]

From other stories I've heard, I would definitely avoid pre-paid flight training. I'll bet the couple hundred dollars will magically reappear in your account if you raise enough hell.

 

[k5beason]

I have the scanned cashed check for the 500.00 I also have the receipt for the checkout. I can not locate/remember if I was provided a copy of the rental agreement.

It was 30.00 a month to receive the discount rental rate, which made sense at the time as it reduced the hourly rental by 30.00. But like I said I've been unable to schedule anything.

I have a great relation with an FBO on the other side of the state and never thought twice about depositing 500.00 with this FBO. I normally charge these types of things just in case but I dropped the ball on that.

Even with the 30.00 a Month. I deposited 500, paid 200 for the checkout and then 30 a month since August should leave me around 200.00 at minimum. He informed me today I only have 77.00 in my account and there would be little incentive to pursue a refund further.

When I called today to inform him I was doing my CFI elsewhere, the plane magically became booked all of today and all of wen. I had reviewed the online schedule mins prior to calling, and right after calling, magically 10 mins later it became booked. I've also had my log in disabled by him since. I was going to fly the account dry, and was ok with that but he made that impossible as well.

 

[seand]

That you weren't taken for much more money would suggest that this isn't the traditional prepaid flight school scam. Many time students are left to pay back loans on money that disappeared, to them $300 would look more like a payment. In that case, the best bet is to work it out with them as they probably want you to be a happy customer... but don't put any money on deposit and pay as you go. If they require it, they might just be a flight school scam. Any discount they offer to have money on deposit is probably not worth it.

There is a whole industry out there where schools promise people they'll have jobs as soon as they are finished and lots of students to build hours, and all they have to do is pay up front. This actually works until the new student population stops growing quickly enough to keep the cashflow going.

 

[saracelica]

I don't know...I'd probably forget about the $300 and call it "lesson learned"...and then email the head honcho and say "Thought you'd like to know several pilots on Pilotsofamerica.com read my story about your training and you lost alot of possible clients due to you taking $123 that wasn't yours - but I'm ok with that...it's a good story to share and I can only hope no one else falls victim to your anitcs" Then go become a CFI and don't do what they did.

 

[k5beason]

That't exactly what I'm going to do, if you google Ace Aviation KHAI this is the first hit.

I attempted to contact him today in regards to using the money left in my account for pilot supplies just so its not a complete loss and he has blocked my number from his phone system. He made a comment in regards that he handles situations like mine all the time and if I want to pursue legal action go for it.

I offered up three resolutions:
1) Let me rent the plane, it magically was booked
2) Let me buy pilot supplies. Call back tomorrow, Which is 11/22 and my number is blocked
3) Write me a check deduct 25-50 bucks which is more profit then you'd see from option 1 or 2.

He called today from a blocked number and told me he's not going to allow me to use or refund my money.

 

[bluee]

What's his reason not to allow you to use your own money?

I don't know why I'm even surprised at crap like this. Maybe consider yourself lucky you found out how dishonest they are before you wasted more money. I can tell you I wasn't so lucky, and I wasted much more than you. I have nothing nice to say about the place that ripped me off. Just make sure when you are a CFI that you don't treat people like that. What goes around, comes around.

Small claims sounds like a reasonable option, at least to **** them off.

 

[Missa]

What can you loose from filing in small claims? I'm sure there is a filing fee but it may be worth it just to make them deal with you.

 

[DaleB]

Add another encouragement to file in small claims court. In most places it only costs a small filing fee, and you don't need a lawyer. Ask for all of your $500 back, less whatever you have a receipt for showing the actual cost of your checkout. That's the ONLY money they have earned.

If the guy doesn't bother to show up, you'll most likely win a default judgment. If he does show up and what you've stated here is true, you'll probably get at least some if not all of what you're asking for. Of course then you get to figure out how to collect the money, but there are ways to do that once you have a court judgment.

Think of it this way. Would you tolerate this kind of nonsense from a NON aviation related business? Why would you let an unethical FBO get away with something you wouldn't let an unethical car rental company or vacuum cleaner salesman get away with? If he "handles situations like [yours] all the time", you can bet he'll screw over the next guy too, as he probably has a long line of people before you. And he'll keep doing it, as long as people keep just taking it. Maybe by investing a little of your own time you can not only get your money back but make this guy think twice about trying to rip off the next person.

 

[Ghery]

Add another encouragement to file in small claims court. In most places it only costs a small filing fee, and you don't need a lawyer. Ask for all of your $500 back, less whatever you have a receipt for showing the actual cost of your checkout. That's the ONLY money they have earned.

If the guy doesn't bother to show up, you'll most likely win a default judgment. If he does show up and what you've stated here is true, you'll probably get at least some if not all of what you're asking for. Of course then you get to figure out how to collect the money, but there are ways to do that once you have a court judgment.

Think of it this way. Would you tolerate this kind of nonsense from a NON aviation related business? Why would you let an unethical FBO get away with something you wouldn't let an unethical car rental company or vacuum cleaner salesman get away with? If he "handles situations like [yours] all the time", you can bet he'll screw over the next guy too, as he probably has a long line of people before you. And he'll keep doing it, as long as people keep just taking it. Maybe by investing a little of your own time you can not only get your money back but make this guy think twice about trying to rip off the next person.

The one time I used small claims court in California you couldn't use a lawyer. Not allowed. Worked well, too.

I'd suggest, as others have, that you take him to court. The publicity here isn't helping him. In small claims court you can sue for the money owed (and I'd go for the $300 given that he has blocked you from using any of it) plus costs. If you win you come out whole.

 

[Steve Foley]

Before you file in small claims, send a written demand for a refund, certified - return receipt requested, as well as another copy first class mail (so when he ignores the certified mail, at least he'll be on notice that you plan to sue).

It's cheaper than filing in small claims, and about as effective. Collecting on a $300 small claims judgment can be difficult.

 

[TripleZ]

What paper work did you sign for the FBO account where you deposited $500? Clauses on using the money? If the FBO doesn't have a contract saying that you forfeit your money under X number of days, they need to give you a refund.

I doubt you will see anything from small claims court, but it will make you feel better. And maybe prevent this from happening to someone else.

 

[N801BH]

""Encountered my first problem with an FBO. I met with Derick at Ace Aviation in Three Rivers Michigan to discuss possibly doing my CFI-Initial. After about an hour talk I was convinced and thus deposited 500.00 into a flight account. I received an aircraft checkout in there Cherokee and was left with about 300.00 and was to come back once I had the writtens done. Upon completion I called, and was promised a call back, called again no call back, finally got a tentive schedule with a different instructor (Originally Derick was going ""

Or you can stoop to his level and claim you gave him 500 dollars and didn't even check out in the Cherokee... And now he owes you the full 500 bucks....

Ben.

 

[gismo]

That't exactly what I'm going to do, if you google Ace Aviation KHAI this is the first hit.

I attempted to contact him today in regards to using the money left in my account for pilot supplies just so its not a complete loss and he has blocked my number from his phone system. He made a comment in regards that he handles situations like mine all the time and if I want to pursue legal action go for it.

I offered up three resolutions:
1) Let me rent the plane, it magically was booked
2) Let me buy pilot supplies. Call back tomorrow, Which is 11/22 and my number is blocked
3) Write me a check deduct 25-50 bucks which is more profit then you'd see from option 1 or 2.

He called today from a blocked number and told me he's not going to allow me to use or refund my money.

Assuming your side of the story is accurate, you'd have a slam dunk in conciliation court. And your description of the FBO's (is this really an FBO if they move around?) actions might even cross the line to criminal fraudulent behavior. I'd definitely pursue the court option even if the few hundred bucks wasn't a big deal.

 

[schmookeeg]

Amazing.

If you decide to pursue small claims, do it soon, as these types of operations disappear abruptly and overnight. We've lost a few of these bad neighbors in the last 2 years, and each time it was a "padlocked door the next day" sort of implosion which caught everyone unawares.

Personally, I think it would be quicker for you to file a chargeback on your card, and let these rats explain to Visa/MC/Amex how they stole your funds, rather than deal with the judge in 6 months and attempting to collect what may not even be there by then.

Show the CC company your receipt for the initial checkout, especially if your signature is on it, so that the FBO has to produce matching receipts.

$0.02. Sorry you're going through this. As a customer, you can also state your case on airnav if you haven't already, to at least keep others out of this trap.

- Mike

 

[gprellwitz]

Amazing.

If you decide to pursue small claims, do it soon, as these types of operations disappear abruptly and overnight. We've lost a few of these bad neighbors in the last 2 years, and each time it was a "padlocked door the next day" sort of implosion which caught everyone unawares.

Personally, I think it would be quicker for you to file a chargeback on your card, and let these rats explain to Visa/MC/Amex how they stole your funds, rather than deal with the judge in 6 months and attempting to collect what may not even be there by then.

Show the CC company your receipt for the initial checkout, especially if your signature is on it, so that the FBO has to produce matching receipts.

$0.02. Sorry you're going through this. As a customer, you can also state your case on airnav if you haven't already, to at least keep others out of this trap.

- Mike

The CC chargeback is a great idea, but...

I have the scanned cashed check for the 500.00 I also have the receipt for the checkout.[...]
I normally charge these types of things just in case but I dropped the ball on that. [...]

I'd recommend small claims court and plenty of publicity. Stick to the facts, though!

 

[schmookeeg]

Doh, missed that aspect. To court it is. Hopefully a 30-day demand letter, itemizing your expected refund, will get them to shift ho and do the right thing. Bad situation all over.

 

[k5beason]

Thanks for all the feedback, Didn't expect this big of a response.

He called today from a blocked number saying that I better be able to back up everything I write on this thread as he is going to pursue me in court.

Again I'm simply voicing my experience with Ace Aviation.

Based on the advice I may look into small claims. I'll be out of state in the near future for about a month which my complicate that.

Thanks again for all the advice,
Ken

 

[denverpilot]

Oh, that'd be "game on" for me right there. Rip me off and then threaten to sue me?

Have fun. Document every minute of time you've spent working on it and even mileage to/from small claims court. If you have to take time off work, all the better.

If he loses - or more likely, doesn't show up - the adjudicator will not only make you whole on the original loss but often cover your court costs as well in many states. He'll end up owing you more than he stole from you.

And for more fun, if he has a regular job with a paycheck, once you have a judgement you can garnish it right straight out of his paycheck.

Granted I'm only hearing your half of this story, but it reminds me of a few other folks I've had the joy of dealing with. The only disadvantage is that it costs you time you could have been doing something useful instead of dealing with their bad behavior.

 

[N801BH]

Derick is the owner. He said he will be mailing me a statement. I offered to go to Three Rivers to pick it up, but he has moved his office to Cold water which is over an hour drive from me.

It's a few hundred dollars, life will go on. I just feel like it'd be much easier and the right thing to do would be to refund my money. He hasn't earned it, I'd pay a small fee for him to cut me the check, I just don't find it worth my time to call 4 times a week every week to get lessons scheduled and for us to meet in a library when I do.

So... Its been a few days since Derrick was going to mail you a statement.... Did it show up in your USPS mailbox yet ? Can you copy it and display it in an attachment so we all can view it? I am really curious on how he/they used up 300 bucks of your money....... . It would be great if by some chance you lived in a different state then Derrick because that would make it interstate fraud,,,, A felony and the FBI gets into the action....

 

[rbhankins001]

(LONG)

I have filed 3 claims (so far) and let a few go. This one I would let go . . . here's why.

Are you in the right? Absolutely!

Is it worth your time and effort, no. That is the only reason I wouldn't file.

Here's my experiences.

1. I had a small yacht in a boatyard. They ripped me off (way off). My brother went to pick it up (by water) and put it back in my slip. The boatyard said you owe us xxx amount $$$ (about 3 times the WRITTEN agrement) and "you ain't getting you're boat back til you pay it". My bro called the police. Sheriff said "civil matter" you will have to PAY HIM "and sue to get it back". If i had been there I would have been LOCKED UP . . . so I filed a small claim. He sued me back (always happens). I won and was payed in c-notes on the spot (that would be a rarity!).

2. I had rented an executive condo while in New Orleans on business. I moved out after about 14 mos. The $2000 deposit was not returned. I filed small claim. I won hands down (judgement 3 times what I was owed), now TO COLLECT (that is the real question isn't it!). I had to wait one year to file judicial demand . . . where the defendant must produce all financial records, deeds, etc. I went to court, it was paid that morning!

3. I rented an executive "mansion" (it was big and nice). Had the movers move me in, and the utilities connected. No air conditioning! (This is in August in New Orleans where it is close to 100 deg and 100% humidity!!). Notify owner. They do nothing. Send a "handy man" to check fuses and say keep running it. Ok then. Ceiling collapses! Oops! All my furnishings (not cheap stuff lol) are ruined along with around 40 suits all over $1,000 bucks (yes, really). So I sue them. They sue me back. Lawyers are involved in this one. The owners husband is a big shot lawyer. I spent $6,500 on my attorney. I won. Got paid three years later.

So is it worth for $300? I'd say no. You will win, albeit only a moral victory. Based on your account of the facts, I doubt this FBO will be around and you will never collect.

So I'd just move on personally.

PS I hate scumbags!!!!

-Rob

 

[Paul Allen]

I would take him to small claims court and you will most likely get a judgement against him. Collecting that money will be your next issue. If you know where he banks you can turn that judgement over to a collection agency and they will go after his bank account. The collection agency will most likely take half the money. Ace still pays and at this point that is what matters most.

 

[Gerhardt]

was to come back once I had the writtens done. Upon completion I called

Just out of curiosity, how much time had passed?

they could not meet at the airport they wanted me to meet at the public library. I had reservations and decided not to go and gave them a 24hour notice

What was the problem with the library?

Saturday I get a text about 1030 saying hey lets meet at school craft library at 11am. I was fed up and thus didn't reply.

That just doesn't make sense if you're looking for the path of least resistance to meet your objective. Even if you didn't want to meet you should have responded to let them know.

Take them to small claims court and you've already given them a couple of legs to stand on with their defense.

 

[k5beason]

Just out of curiosity, how much time had passed?



What was the problem with the library?



That just doesn't make sense if you're looking for the path of least resistance to meet your objective. Even if you didn't want to meet you should have responded to let them know.

Take them to small claims court and you've already given them a couple of legs to stand on with their defense.

It was several weeks by the time I had the writtens done.

The problem wasn't the library it was the switch from derick to mike as the CFi. Mike apparently was just getting back into instructing and had never done a CFi initial

Derick was supposed to call me Thursday with a schedule prior to the text i recieved Saturday. He claims I was sent an email which I did not receive and can not find in gmail. Yes should have responded to his text but I was upset with the lack of communication prior and the fact I had no knowledge of the Saturday lesson till the text 30 mins prior

The point of my thread was to share my experience and ask for advice. I agree I may have small claims case but the I need to focus back on school and my CFI