Local arrivals

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
It took me awhile to memorize and be able to execute the arrival procedure at my local airport. For a long time, it just didn't make sense to me. Now that I've got it firmly in-mind, I'm realizing that I don't recall seeing anything written about arrival or departure procedures that transients can use containing these procedures.

I know there are regulations about using "standard" arrival and departure procedures unless the airport has specified one they want to be used. What's involved in making a procedure 'official'? Can a procedure be official and yet not listed in the AF/D? Hypothetically then, why can't I just do it the way I want (of course staying within applicable FARs) since our procedures aren't "published" except in our local training and OPS manual?
 
Jaybird180 said:
It took me awhile to memorize and be able to execute the arrival procedure at my local airport. For a long time, it just didn't make sense to me. Now that I've got it firmly in-mind, I'm realizing that I don't recall seeing anything written about arrival or departure procedures that transients can use containing these procedures.

I know there are regulations about using "standard" arrival and departure procedures unless the airport has specified one they want to be used. What's involved in making a procedure 'official'? Can a procedure be official and yet not listed in the AF/D? Hypothetically then, why can't I just do it the way I want (of course staying within applicable FARs) since our procedures aren't "published" except in our local training and OPS manual?
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You mean VFR?

Non-towered: Enter the pattern and land.
Towered: Follow ATC directions.

Really no reason to make it more complicated than that. The most common pattern entry processes are straight in to land, 45 degrees to downwind, midfield crosswind, and upwind joining, but you can join any way you want provided you don't hit another plane.
 
Sometimes, local procedures will be in the AFD. Sometimes, the local procedures are noise abatement related and are oftern found on the airport website, or by calling the number listed in the AFD.

One of the best sources I have seen that gives transient pilots a heads up to local arrival and departure procedures is the Flight Guide: http://www.flightguide.com/
I've always like the Flight Guides over the AFD - much better info in an easier to read/understand format. Most pilot shops carry them.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Hypothetically then, why can't I just do it the way I want (of course staying within applicable FARs) since our procedures aren't "published" except in our local training and OPS manual?
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Are these "procedures" specific to your flight school? How are they different than what's in the AF/D?
 
Do the procedures prehaps take into account noise abatement for the folks near the airport? I'm assuming since your location says near DC that it's crowded.
 
SkyHog said:
You mean VFR?

Non-towered: Enter the pattern and land.
Towered: Follow ATC directions.

Really no reason to make it more complicated than that. The most common pattern entry processes are straight in to land, 45 degrees to downwind, midfield crosswind, and upwind joining, but you can join any way you want provided you don't hit another plane.
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It can be more complicated at some airports where the tower wants you to report at a location you are not familiar with. That's where a pub like Flight Guide is really helpful - you know in advance what the Tower is probably going to do and you can get a good idea where the landmarks are.

Also, some airports don't have standard patterns - either due to terrain or nosie abatement. That's why you are required to become familiar with the destination specifics before you fly.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It can be more complicated at some airports where the tower wants you to report at a location you are not familiar with. That's where a pub like Flight Guide is really helpful - you know in advance what the Tower is probably going to do and you can get a good idea where the landmarks are.
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"Unable." "Unfamiliar." They really should not be using landmarks that aren't marked on a sectional for that specific reason (or an obvious terrain feature like that volcano thingie coming into KVGT or the Sludge Plant coming into KAEG). That drives me nuts about ATC sometimes.
Also, some airports don't have standard patterns - either due to terrain or nosie abatement. That's why you are required to become familiar with the destination specifics before you fly.
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This is marked on the sectional through the use of RP. If there's no RP on the sectional, standard patterns are fine. If there is an RP there, better open up the AFD and find out why.
 
Usually deviations from standard just have to do with right hand patterns and whatnot. I assumed that the difficulties arose from the OP's location near the D.C. security nonsense and the procedures involved therein.
 
SkyHog said:
"Unable." "Unfamiliar." They really should not be using landmarks that aren't marked on a sectional for that specific reason (or an obvious terrain feature like that volcano thingie coming into KVGT or the Sludge Plant coming into KAEG). That drives me nuts about ATC sometimes.
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Even landmarks that are marked on the chart are not always easy to identify to a pilot unfamiliar with the area. First time I flew into DVT, the tower told me to report the dam. I'm from Phoenix and I had no idea where the dam was - it all looked like dry desert to me. Yes, the pilot can say they are 'unfamiliar', but that should be a backup and not a reason to not become familiar with the destination prior to departure.

SkyHog said:
This is marked on the sectional through the use of RP. If there's no RP on the sectional, standard patterns are fine. If there is an RP there, better open up the AFD and find out why.
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The point is you have to look it up and you best do it in advance. The sectional will not provide noise abatement procedures, nor will it tell you when the right hand pattern shifts to a left hand pattern - yes, some airports have runways with different patterns depending on the time of day. Sectional won't tell you that.
 
SkyHog said:
"Unable." "Unfamiliar." They really should not be using landmarks that aren't marked on a sectional for that specific reason (or an obvious terrain feature like that volcano thingie coming into KVGT or the Sludge Plant coming into KAEG). That drives me nuts about ATC sometimes.
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Why would it drive you nuts? It's a shorthand for ATC and local pilots to keep communication simpler. That "unfamiliar" is a simple enough response (I've used it enough :D ) to get somehting that makes more sense to a transient.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I know there are regulations about using "standard" arrival and departure procedures unless the airport has specified one they want to be used.
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Other than IFR procedures, which regs would those be? Other than making all turns in the prescribed direction, and the rules on right of way, there really aren't any FAR's regarding entry to/exit from the traffic pattern.

What's involved in making a procedure 'official'?
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Getting it published in the appropriate FAA publication.

Can a procedure be official and yet not listed in the AF/D?
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Yes, there are special procedures in the NOTAMs, too. You have to read the full NOTAM book (the NTAP) to find them.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/notices/

Hypothetically then, why can't I just do it the way I want (of course staying within applicable FARs) since our procedures aren't "published" except in our local training and OPS manual?
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No FAA reason, but the flight school can still require you to use their procedures as a condition for flying their airplanes.
 
Can OP post those procedures so we don't have to guess?:wink2:
 
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Jeanie said:
Do the procedures prehaps take into account noise abatement for the folks near the airport? I'm assuming since your location says near DC that it's crowded.
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"Near DC" means that it might have something to do with the ADIZ/SFRA, in which case most of the rest of this thread is wrong/irrelevant and the SFRA procedures MUST be followed.
 
This may include AC No: 91-36D. Pretty far reaching. Not my home base, but there are several references posted at the airport to the local arrival/departure procedures at KFRG. As an example.
 
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Just say unfamiliar. First time I flew into Tucson International, approach said 'fly direct a hill'. I looked around anr saw lots of hills. I said 'unfamiliar' and got vectors. Then realized they were talking about 'A' hill where the university has painted an 'A'!
 
Sorry I didn't make it clear. Class E untowered. Instrument approach available for RNWY18 only but I'm talking VFR arrivals.

Standard procedure is the enter the 45, but my question (and the reason it took me so long to understand) is they have a specific way they want you to setup the 45 entry; there are checkpoints; one for RNWY 18 and another for RNWY 36.

This isn't published anywhere and if you're not from our airport, you probably wouldn't know. You might be inclined to enter from a long base leg or straight in, or even inclined to enter midfield and turn Left or Right to enter downwind for the runway in use.

Procedure was developed to avoid penetrating the FRZ.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sorry I didn't make it clear. Class E untowered. Instrument approach available for RNWY18 only but I'm talking VFR arrivals.

Standard procedure is the enter the 45, but my question (and the reason it took me so long to understand) is they have a specific way they want you to setup the 45 entry; there are checkpoints; one for RNWY 18 and another for RNWY 36.

This isn't published anywhere and if you're not from our airport, you probably wouldn't know. You might be inclined to enter from a long base leg or straight in, or even inclined to enter midfield and turn Left or Right to enter downwind for the runway in use.

Procedure was developed to avoid penetrating the FRZ.
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In that case, it sounds like it is a procedure designed to help the local trafffic avoid the FRZ. If it ins't in the AFD or in Flight Guide and with no tower, the transients simply need to listen up on the freq for SA and SHOULD have done enough planning before the flight to know how to avoid the FRZ. Unless the 'local' pattern is really convoluted and could conflict with standard procedures, then it shouldn't be a problem to mix the transients in. If the procedure is so radically different as to cause a safety hazard, then they really should either drop it or get it published in the AFD.

Personally, developing local 'unpublished' procedures at a non-towered airport is just asking for trouble.....just my 2 cents.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In that case, it sounds like it is a procedure designed to help the local trafffic avoid the FRZ. If it ins't in the AFD or in Flight Guide and with no tower, the transients simply need to listen up on the freq for SA and SHOULD have done enough planning before the flight to know how to avoid the FRZ. Unless the 'local' pattern is really convoluted and could conflict with standard procedures, then it shouldn't be a problem to mix the transients in. If the procedure is so radically different as to cause a safety hazard, then they really should either drop it or get it published in the AFD.

Personally, developing local 'unpublished' procedures at a non-towered airport is just asking for trouble.....just my 2 cents.
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Agreed 100%.
 
steingar said:
Usually deviations from standard just have to do with right hand patterns and whatnot. I assumed that the difficulties arose from the OP's location near the D.C. security nonsense and the procedures involved therein.
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We have a winner!
 
SkyHog said:
"Unable." "Unfamiliar." They really should not be using landmarks that aren't marked on a sectional for that specific reason (or an obvious terrain feature like that volcano thingie coming into KVGT or the Sludge Plant coming into KAEG). That drives me nuts about ATC sometimes.
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I've NEVER been asked about the Sludge Plant. I have no idea where that might be. Casino, I know. There's also a "secret" IFR intersection above Rio Rancho, between NELGE and KAEG, which is not marked on the sectional, but my GPS knows. But Sludge Plant? Is this for an arrival from Farmington or something?
 
zaitcev said:
I've NEVER been asked about the Sludge Plant. I have no idea where that might be. Casino, I know. There's also a "secret" IFR intersection above Rio Rancho, between NELGE and KAEG, which is not marked on the sectional, but my GPS knows. But Sludge Plant? Is this for an arrival from Farmington or something?
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That giant, giant, GIANT plant directly to the west of runway 22 that marks a perfect spot to join the 45 for right downwind on the mesa....the uh....only place out there where the surrounding grass is green, usually....

And, umm...the one place I wouldn't put a plane down if I lose an engine in that area on the mesa, because I'm sure its nasty.

Next time you go flying, look over there. You can't miss it. I don't know how ATC does it, because once West Mesa got kicked out and Bode jacked everyone's rates, I stopped flying out of there, but back in the non-towered days (like 2 or 3 years ago), locals always reported "Over the escartment" and "Sludge Plant, on the 45."

I'm not joking, and I'm surprised you haven't seen it. take a look...its huge!
 
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