Likelihood of Spin in Power-On Stall

[HerrGruyere]

Hi All,

I'm doing my private training right now. When I was first introduced to power-on stalls, I had no issues with them and found them to be enjoyable. Then I watched a video on spins and have since developed a fear of spinning in a power-on stall.

It's my understanding that to initiate a spin, you pull the yoke full aft and add a full deflection of rudder in a chosen direction. The aircraft will roll to the direction in which the rudder is deflected, the inside wing stalls before the outside, and the spin begins. We fly a 172R, which is a pretty docile airplane and actually a PITA to stall (maybe I'm the docile one, though...). In a power-on stall, as you all know, you add a significant amount of right rudder to compensate for the left-turning tendencies while holding aft elevator to hold a high attitude and induce the stall. I'm hesitant to add so much aft pressure to the yoke for fear the plane will suddenly enter a spin, as it seems I am holding the correct configuration for spin entry.

I've gone over PARE for spins, but we haven't done any actual spin training. Although, on a side note, I'd like to do some after getting my private. What I'm asking is: am I wrong to have this fear?

Thanks!

 

[gismo]

Hi All,

I'm doing my private training right now. When I was first introduced to power-on stalls, I had no issues with them and found them to be enjoyable. Then I watched a video on spins and have since developed a fear of spinning in a power-on stall.

It's my understanding that to initiate a spin, you pull the yoke full aft and add a full deflection of rudder in a chosen direction. The aircraft will roll to the direction in which the rudder is deflected, the inside wing stalls before the outside, and the spin begins. We fly a 172R, which is a pretty docile airplane and actually a PITA to stall (maybe I'm the docile one, though...). In a power-on stall, as you all know, you add a significant amount of right rudder to compensate for the left-turning tendencies while holding aft elevator to hold a high attitude and induce the stall. I'm hesitant to add so much aft pressure to the yoke for fear the plane will suddenly enter a spin, as it seems I am holding the correct configuration for spin entry.

I've gone over PARE for spins, but we haven't done any actual spin training. Although, on a side note, I'd like to do some after getting my private. What I'm asking is: am I wrong to have this fear?

Thanks!

I felt the same way when I was training for my PPL but the reality is that in a 172 with forward CG (e.g. no pax or baggage in the rear) it's almost impossible to enter a fully developed spin and the plane will recover almost instantly if you simply let go of the controls. Perhaps the best way to mitigate your fear (other than some actual spin recovery training) is to perform your stall practice with plenty of altitude (i.e. at least 3000 preferably more than 4000 AGL) and pay attention to coordination during the stall entry. Another simple technique which works in most airplanes including the Cessna trainers is to use the rudder to prevent any rotation during the entire stall event. This is fairly easy to do and can be best learned by performing a "falling leaf" maneuver with your CFI on board. The falling leaf involves setting up for a power off stall and holding full up elevator instead of your normal stall recovery. The airplane will either mush (develop a high sink rate without pitching down) or porpoise and your only task is to keep the plane pointed in the same direction with the rudder no matter what else happens.

 

[FlySince9]

Many Instructors will chime in shortly... I just wanted to say that the "Death-Spin" is every student's fear. Stick and Rudder! Fly the airplane though the manuever and you won't spin.

I'll leave the specifics to the pros...

 

[HerrGruyere]

My instructor mentioned that with sufficient and correct rudder inputs during the maneuver, the plane is not likely to spin. I also figured that the plane is a trainer and is fairly stable, i.e. will not enter a spin so easily as something like a Decathlon.

Thanks for the answers so far!

And also, we certainly do not practice the maneuver at anything less than 3,000.

 

[alfadog]

The airplane must yaw to spin. If there is no yaw there is no spin. That said, I did advertently spin a C-152 while doing my PPL training in the 70's. I was alone and practicing power on stalls. I must have let the airplane yaw in the stall and was probably slow on removing the power. It spun and I managed to recover. Don't recall if my instructor had ever gone over spin recovery with me. I seem to remember that I did about 3/4 of a turn so it would have been a developing spin.

 

[poadeleted21]

Probably depend on the plane, I think it would be difficult to get into an accidental spin in a power on stall in my cherokee, well a fully developed one. A much more effective way to get into a spin would be skid instead of slip, so which rudder does matter.

 

[FlySince9]

The airplane must yaw to spin. If there is no yaw there is no spin. That said, I did inadvertently spin a C-152 while doing my PPL training in the 70's. I was alone and practicing power on stalls. I must have let the airplane yaw in the stall and was probably slow on removing the power. It spun and I managed to recover. Don't recall if my instructor had ever gone over spin recovery with me. I seem to remember that I did about 3/4 of a turn so it would have been a developing spin.

FTFY

Sorry... Just wanted to know what it felt like to pull a "Henning"

 

[alfadog]

We fly a 172R, which is a pretty docile airplane and actually a PITA to stall (maybe I'm the docile one, though...).
Thanks!

It is not you. In spin research, NASA test pilots that tried their damdest to get the 172 to spin only managed to do that about 1/2 the time from straight flight in normal conditions.

 

[alfadog]

FTFY

Sorry... Just wanted to know what it felt like to pull a "Henning"

Thanks, I hate writing in little boxes No, I did not go out to try to spin.

I do want to do some spin training now and have the permission of the Luscombe owner to spin his airplane. Need to schedule some time with the CFI. You need 'chutes for that, don't you? The Luscombe has removable seats for seat-pack 'chutes.

 

[whifferdill]

I would suggest you go up with your instructor and do a simple exercise that I bet will alleviate your fears: Approach a straight-ahead power-on stall, but do not use any right rudder to keep the ball centered. Pull the yoke completely aft, stall the airplane, and let the left wing start to drop. Immediately apply right rudder to stop the left wing from dropping, immediately followed by unloading the yoke. Immediately neutralize the rudder and fly away.

Do this over and over until you learn that you have complete control of the airplane (via the rudder) without having to actually spin the airplane. That being said, actual spin training will do wonders for your comfort level and confidence.

BTW, some may call what I described to be an incipient spin recovery. It is not ncessarily an incipient spin. "Incipient" is just a fancy way to say that a spin has started, but it has not fully developed - as in the aircraft still has a forward trajector and has not stabilized into a vertical trajector toward the ground. Just because one wing drops does not mean you are entering a spin. If your instructor is competent with spins, do a power-on stall without any rudder input like I described, and sit and see what actually happens. I produced a power-on spin in the Pitts without rudder, from a similar type of stall, but it only actually spun if I applied full right aileron at the stall (left spin). In the Cessna, I guarantee whatever happens, that if you pull power and let go of all the controls, it will recover immediately.

The aircraft will roll to the direction in which the rudder is deflected, the inside wing stalls before the outside, and the spin begins.

If you apply rudder at the stall, both wings stall at the same time. The spin is mostly driven by the fact that one wing is stalled more deeply than the other, caused by the rudder input.

 

[TMetzinger]

You're not wrong to fear spinning when you've never done it.

As the difference between a slipped and skidding stall shows, you GENERALLY are at risk for a spin when you have TOO MUCH rudder in the direction of the bank at the stall.

The position of the rudder pedals isn't what drives the spin entry directly. As you've noted, in a power-on stall the various forces (p-factor, torque) tend to make the airplane want to move the nose leftward as you increase the back pressure and the angle of attack. You use right rudder to compensate for this so that the ball stays centered and your "butt" doesn't feel lateral movement pressures. In that case, where the yaw factors are balanced, you won't enter a spin.

Where students tend to enter a spin from a power on stall is in not using right rudder, which results in left yaw at the stall. Particularly if you yank that last bit hard, the left yaw makes the right wing advance and generate more lift, and at the stall the left wing drops and you go over. It's possible to add too much right rudder as well and stall/spin in the opposite direction.

From the paragraph above, you may feel MORE scared - omygod the airplane will spin if you aren't PERFECTLY coordinated. For the non-aerobatic planes, this isn't true. If you're not coordinated, you might get a wing drop at the stall, but that's not the same as a spin entry, and the airplane will recover and stop that moment as soon as you relax the back pressure. Note that if your airplane isn't rigged properly so that things are in balance, you can get a wing drop during a power off stall too, just because one wing stalls a little earlier.

In the typical GA trainer (and I'm pretty sure this is true for all airplanes) the rudder is the last control surface to stop flying in any normal situation, including stalls. If, at the stall, you get a wing drop, you can add opposite rudder (which will advance the dropped wing, generating more lift) and the wing will pop right back up again.

Hope this is useful... Spin training with a qualified instructor in a proper aircraft will help as well.

 

[denverpilot]

Is it the fear of the loss of control, or of the unknown.

If the former, do the above. If the latter, get full spin training.

 

[FlySince9]

Thanks, I hate writing in little boxes No, I did not go out to try to spin.

I do want to do some spin training now and have the permission of the Luscombe owner to spin his airplane. Need to schedule some time with the CFI. You need 'chutes for that, don't you? The Luscombe has removable seats for seat-pack 'chutes.

Chutes? Are you kidding? I think that is only required for aerobatics. Last time I checked, spin training wasn't considered aerobatics, though might be prudent in a Luscombe . I did my spin training in a C152. No Chute... (Look Mom, No Chute!) Yes, believe it or not that little airplane will spin. You might need a few weeks at the gym working on your upper body-strentgh first... but they will spin...

 

[HerrGruyere]

Where students tend to enter a spin from a power on stall is in not using right rudder, which results in left yaw at the stall. Particularly if you yank that last bit hard, the left yaw makes the right wing advance and generate more lift, and at the stall the left wing drops and you go over. It's possible to add too much right rudder as well and stall/spin in the opposite direction.

From the paragraph above, you may feel MORE scared - omygod the airplane will spin if you aren't PERFECTLY coordinated. For the non-aerobatic planes, this isn't true. If you're not coordinated, you might get a wing drop at the stall, but that's not the same as a spin entry, and the airplane will recover and stop that moment as soon as you relax the back pressure. Note that if your airplane isn't rigged properly so that things are in balance, you can get a wing drop during a power off stall too, just because one wing stalls a little earlier.

Hope this is useful... Spin training with a qualified instructor in a proper aircraft will help as well.

Thanks - this helped a ton! I'm timid on the rudder during this maneuver, so I think just keeping the wings level and the ball centered with the use of a little more rudder inputs will help me gain confidence.

Edit: Also, I'm planning on doing a little bit o' spin training when I eventually pass. It'd be nice to get a tailwheel endorsement at the same time, but that's another thread!

 

[alfadog]

Thanks - this helped a ton! I'm timid on the rudder during this maneuver, so I think just keeping the wings level and the ball centered with the use of a little more rudder inputs will help me gain confidence.

Edit: Also, I'm planning on doing a little bit o' spin training when I eventually pass. It'd be nice to get a tailwheel endorsement at the same time, but that's another thread!

Timid is what will get you in trouble. I learned recently to be "untimid" when I got my tw endorsement in the Luscombe. Don't be timid. My instructor liked to say "How much rudder (aileron, elevator) do you need? As much as it takes."

 

[Gubbins]

I once did a power on stall with NO rudder input (was goaded into trying this by my CFI at the time) in a 172. We did half a spin which just about stopped my heart. I believe this was only my 3rd or 4th lesson. But my CFI calmly stopped it before it could even develop into a fully developed spin.

 

[spinfire]

In the stall, step on the high wing to keep the wings level. Ailerons should be neutral in the stall. The "falling leaf" exercise is a great idea (do it with an instructor for now).

 

[alfadog]

Chutes? Are you kidding? I think that is only required for aerobatics. Last time I checked, spin training wasn't considered aerobatics, though might be prudent in a Luscombe . I did my spin training in a C152. No Chute... (Look Mom, No Chute!) Yes, believe it or not that little airplane will spin. You might need a few weeks at the gym working on your upper body-strentgh first... but they will spin...

Ok, no chute as per AC No: 61-67C.

The Luscombe is certificated for aerobatics but the owner stops short of allowing that. We will see.

 

[HerrGruyere]

In the stall, step on the high wing to keep the wings level. Ailerons should be neutral in the stall. The "falling leaf" exercise is a great idea (do it with an instructor for now).

I try to keep them as neutral as possible.

I once did a power on stall with NO rudder input (was goaded into trying this by my CFI at the time) in a 172. We did half a spin which just about stopped my heart. I believe this was only my 3rd or 4th lesson. But my CFI calmly stopped it before it could even develop into a fully developed spin.

Yikes! Lesson learned!

 

[Jeanie]

Actually, you might go ahead and find a good aerobatic instructor and take one hour of basic unusual attitude / spin training even now, before you get the PP ticket. I did at 30 hrs as a student and it made a world of difference for my confidence. And it was fun.
Get references about the CFI from previous students in the area. Explain to her what your concerns are and that you just want to dip your toes into the edges. If the CFI is good then you won't be scared anymore after the lesson

 

[TMetzinger]

Actually, you might go ahead and find a good aerobatic instructor and take one hour of basic unusual attitude / spin training even now, before you get the PP ticket. I did at 30 hrs as a student and it made a world of difference for my confidence. And it was fun.
Get references about the CFI from previous students in the area. Explain to her what your concerns are and that you just want to dip your toes into the edges. If the CFI is good then you won't be scared anymore after the lesson

Excellent suggestion!

 

[1200AGL]

Actually, you might go ahead and find a good aerobatic instructor and take one hour of basic unusual attitude / spin training even now, before you get the PP ticket. I did at 30 hrs as a student and it made a world of difference for my confidence. And it was fun.
Get references about the CFI from previous students in the area. Explain to her what your concerns are and that you just want to dip your toes into the edges. If the CFI is good then you won't be scared anymore after the lesson

If he's in Bethesda, then I highly recommend Adam Cope at VKX. We did his spin training lesson in the Super Decathlon this past Sunday. It dispelled a lot of misconceptions that I had, and it was a lot of fun!

Be warned, though: aerobatics is more addictive than hard drugs . A year ago, I'd never have believed I'd be learning aerobatics now. I'm hooked (5 hrs so far).

 

[Jeanie]

There ya' go! Let us know how it goes and what parts you liked best

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

In a power-on stall, as you all know, you add a significant amount of right rudder to compensate for the left-turning tendencies while holding aft elevator to hold a high attitude and induce the stall. I'm hesitant to add so much aft pressure to the yoke for fear the plane will suddenly enter a spin, as it seems I am holding the correct configuration for spin entry.

The correct configuration for spin entry would be to yaw as you stall. Holding rudder to prevent yaw and keep the wings level is the correct configuration to avoid a spin.

 

[GCA319]

Is it the fear of the loss of control, or of the unknown.

If the former, do the above. If the latter, get full spin training.

Yes. I think spin training is an excellent confidence builder. I first did Spins when I was a PPL working on my Commercial and after that flight, I felt way more comfortable with the airplane.

 

[dell30rb]

The airplane must yaw to spin. If there is no yaw there is no spin. That said, I did advertently spin a C-152 while doing my PPL training in the 70's. I was alone and practicing power on stalls. I must have let the airplane yaw in the stall and was probably slow on removing the power. It spun and I managed to recover. Don't recall if my instructor had ever gone over spin recovery with me. I seem to remember that I did about 3/4 of a turn so it would have been a developing spin.

It wont do a full on spin unless you continually hold in a lot of back elevator and rudder. If you relax just a bit it will pop out.

If you accdientally gave it a bunch of rudder in the wrong direction while doing a power on stall it will spin maybe 1/2 turn and then pop out. Never really reaches a full spin

 

[wabower]

You might enjoy reading Sparky Imerson's (RIP) "Taildragger Tactics." In Sec 1-20 he describes the reason why "centered ball" will result in a right wing drop (rather than the desired wings-level) and therefore recommends maintaining a half-ball-right for power-on stalls. After reading his book I remembered teaching stalls in our 172 and noticing the wing drop, but always thought it was probably rigging or instrument installation or whatever. Anyway, I subsequently tried his suggestion and found that it works perfectly.

PS: He says it has to do with changes in spiral slipstream.

You're not wrong to fear spinning when you've never done it.

As the difference between a slipped and skidding stall shows, you GENERALLY are at risk for a spin when you have TOO MUCH rudder in the direction of the bank at the stall.

The position of the rudder pedals isn't what drives the spin entry directly. As you've noted, in a power-on stall the various forces (p-factor, torque) tend to make the airplane want to move the nose leftward as you increase the back pressure and the angle of attack. You use right rudder to compensate for this so that the ball stays centered and your "butt" doesn't feel lateral movement pressures. In that case, where the yaw factors are balanced, you won't enter a spin.

Where students tend to enter a spin from a power on stall is in not using right rudder, which results in left yaw at the stall. Particularly if you yank that last bit hard, the left yaw makes the right wing advance and generate more lift, and at the stall the left wing drops and you go over. It's possible to add too much right rudder as well and stall/spin in the opposite direction.

From the paragraph above, you may feel MORE scared - omygod the airplane will spin if you aren't PERFECTLY coordinated. For the non-aerobatic planes, this isn't true. If you're not coordinated, you might get a wing drop at the stall, but that's not the same as a spin entry, and the airplane will recover and stop that moment as soon as you relax the back pressure. Note that if your airplane isn't rigged properly so that things are in balance, you can get a wing drop during a power off stall too, just because one wing stalls a little earlier.

In the typical GA trainer (and I'm pretty sure this is true for all airplanes) the rudder is the last control surface to stop flying in any normal situation, including stalls. If, at the stall, you get a wing drop, you can add opposite rudder (which will advance the dropped wing, generating more lift) and the wing will pop right back up again.

Hope this is useful... Spin training with a qualified instructor in a proper aircraft will help as well.

 

[GeorgeC]

Adam was also recommended to me; I'll probably do spin training with him at some point.

The closest I got to spinning a 172 was dropping a wing during a power on stall. As it turns out, the stall warning horn was inop.

I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say that the PPL is a license to learn.

If he's in Bethesda, then I highly recommend Adam Cope at VKX. We did his spin training lesson in the Super Decathlon this past Sunday. It dispelled a lot of misconceptions that I had, and it was a lot of fun!

Be warned, though: aerobatics is more addictive than hard drugs . A year ago, I'd never have believed I'd be learning aerobatics now. I'm hooked (5 hrs so far).

 

[denverpilot]

Adam was also recommended to me; I'll probably do spin training with him at some point.

The closest I got to spinning a 172 was dropping a wing during a power on stall. As it turns out, the stall warning horn was inop.

I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say that the PPL is a license to learn.

Ahh! Yes! A *great* lesson.

Think back, did the airplane give you (lots of) other clues that it was about to stall?

"Loose" feeling in the controls? Shudder or vibration? What did it feel like in your butt? And sound like?

Good stuff.

 

[Henning]

Yeah sure, if you do a power on stall and don't carry right rudder, when the stall breaks, the left wing will tuck under and you will begin rotataing, if you are at 3000' AGL when you start, no worries, reduce power to idle, ailerons level, apply opposite (right with very few exceptions) all the way to the floor, full control authority, and push forward to break the stall; you'll recover most small planes within 270* and 300'. With practice you catch it so quick you can do what is known as a 'Falling Leaf' stall where you drop, albiet power off eg. AF 447 using the rudder to lift your wings. Since you are stalled, all aileron reactions will be counter flying reactions which is why it's important to just hold them level. Spins are nothing to be afraid of in any training plane. They are a risk that is easily managed. Once it happens a couple of times, it becomes very easy to sense and avoid lol.

 

[GeorgeC]

Yep, the yoke went slack, which was my cue. The value of the lesson was later, on the ground, whereupon I whinged about the inop stall horn, and someone said, "you shouldn't need the horn..."

I'm not sure you want to know what it sounded like in my butt.

PS, great avatar.

Ahh! Yes! A *great* lesson.

Think back, did the airplane give you (lots of) other clues that it was about to stall?

"Loose" feeling in the controls? Shudder or vibration? What did it feel like in your butt? And sound like?

Good stuff.

 

[TMetzinger]

Adam was also recommended to me; I'll probably do spin training with him at some point.

The closest I got to spinning a 172 was dropping a wing during a power on stall. As it turns out, the stall warning horn was inop.

I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say that the PPL is a license to learn.

I did my spin training with Adam for my CFI... they don't come any better.

 

[Datadriver]

Just keep the ball centered with the rudder pedals

 

[Meanee]

I was afraid enough of spins that I did my stalls at 7000' AGL. But I drilled whole PARE thing into my head. And at few points during power-on stall, I had wing drop a bit, but nothing major. I actually found that the 180hp Cessna 172 is pretty tough to stall. Was a challenge to get the nose to drop. And I didn't even have to demonstrate it during the checkride...

I asked my CFI to do a spin training before I go out to practice area for my solo PTS maneuvers. He told me that with a C172 it would be fairly hard to get it to spin. Offered me to do it in his aerobatic plane later in summer (Yak-52). He did ask me to show my actions if spin does develop.

 

[Cub-Pilot]

With the 172 just relax the back pressure when it brakes and it will go back to flying. But I would recommend spin training.

 

[HerrGruyere]

If he's in Bethesda, then I highly recommend Adam Cope at VKX. We did his spin training lesson in the Super Decathlon this past Sunday. It dispelled a lot of misconceptions that I had, and it was a lot of fun!

Be warned, though: aerobatics is more addictive than hard drugs . A year ago, I'd never have believed I'd be learning aerobatics now. I'm hooked (5 hrs so far).

Hell I just wanna go up because Super Decathlons rock.

But I think all planes rock, haha.

 

[numl0ck]

Wow! This thread is timely. I did my first stall practice yesterday. It was fun, and a great learning experience, but the questions posted by the OP have been in my mind since day 1.

I actually found that the 180hp Cessna 172 is pretty tough to stall. Was a challenge to get the nose to drop.

I found the same thing too. We backed the power off to 2000-2100 RPMs to do the power-on stall. What caught me off guard was how far back I had to pull the yoke to get the plane to bleed off enough airspeed. Then a brief shudder and the nose drops. The last one we did, we dropped the left wing pretty good, and the CFI helped me recover. It was fun/exhilerating/scary/facinating/frustrating/exciting all at the same time. And I'm looking forward to going back for some more.

 

[ainokea]

Hehe, I know how the OP feels. I did a power on stall with full power and pulled the yoke past 30 degrees. The plane stalls and the right wing drops and I feel a spin coming. My CFI stops the spin by placing left rudder. I forgot I was suppose to slow down to rotation speed. Instead of full power now I use 2200 RPM and use no more than 20 deg. of bank.

 

[denverpilot]

Hehe, I know how the OP feels. I did a power on stall with full power and pulled the yoke past 30 degrees. The plane stalls and the right wing drops and I feel a spin coming. My CFI stops the spin by placing left rudder. I forgot I was suppose to slow down to rotation speed. Instead of full power now I use 2200 RPM and use no more than 20 deg. of bank.

Will youl be using 2200 RPM at takeoff when the real departure stall happens?

Go do it again with full power and make it YOUR foot pressing the rudder pedal, not your Instructor's.

The point of the lesson was not to figure out how to make practice easier and less realistic.

 

[denverpilot]

I found the same thing too. We backed the power off to 2000-2100 RPMs to do the power-on stall. What caught me off guard was how far back I had to pull the yoke to get the plane to bleed off enough airspeed. Then a brief shudder and the nose drops. The last one we did, we dropped the left wing pretty good, and the CFI helped me recover. It was fun/exhilerating/scary/facinating/frustrating/exciting all at the same time. And I'm looking forward to going back for some more.

You'll enjoy the falling leaf stuff later. Most trainers power-off, will do the shudder, drop, shudder, drop, shudder, drop thing all afternoon with the yoke held full aft. Your arms get tired.

Airplane keeps telling you to just let go and it'll go find its trim speed -- if you'd just leave it alone.