Light Sport Instrument Rating tread again

Dave Anderson

Dave Anderson

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So here is my question:
I hold a PPL-G and a Sport Rating. My license says Private Pilot on the front.

Far 61.65 says that you must obtain an instrument rating in an Airplane using a Private Pilot license, it doesn't specify you need SEL rating, it also defined in 14.1.1 as Airplane means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings. An LSA is a type of airplane.

A Private Pilot that lets his/her medical relapse can fly an LSA as an instrument-rated pilot. But they fly under LSA rules.

So my question is can I, or why can't I obtain an instrument rating in my instrument-rated LSA?

Is this grey area something that I could get via an FSDO exception? It seems to be a bit of an oddity.
 
61.65 a.1 -- Hold at least a current private pilot certificate, or be concurrently applying for a private pilot certificate, with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought.

Do you meet that with a PPL-G and sport pilot?
 
A Sport Pilot, or Private Pilot with no medical operating as a Sport Pilot, can't fly IFR even he has an instrument rating, because a SP can't fly in less than 3 miles visibility or "without visual reference to the surface."
 
Dana said:
A Sport Pilot, or Private Pilot with no medical operating as a Sport Pilot, can't fly IFR even he has an instrument rating, because a SP can't fly in less than 3 miles visibility or "without visual reference to the surface."
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Makes sense but trying to understand the reg. A private pilot with no medical is flying under "sport pilot" rules but if they have an IFR rating (from there PPL) and E-LSA they can fly IFR. How's that make sense?
 
jrcox19 said:
61.65 a.1 -- Hold at least a current private pilot certificate, or be concurrently applying for a private pilot certificate, with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought.

Do you meet that with a PPL-G and sport pilot?
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My license says Private Pilot. But the rating says sport/glider.
 
Dave Anderson said:
Makes sense but trying to understand the reg. A private pilot with no medical is flying under "sport pilot" rules but if they have an IFR rating (from there PPL) and E-LSA they can fly IFR. How's that make sense?
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It doesn't make sense because it's not correct. A Private Pilot exercising Sport Pilot privileges can't fly IFR even if he has an instrument rating.
 
Dave Anderson said:
Makes sense but trying to understand the reg. A private pilot with no medical is flying under "sport pilot" rules but if they have an IFR rating (from there PPL) and E-LSA they can fly IFR. How's that make sense?
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That's not true. You can't fly IFR without a medical or BasicMed.
 
Dave Anderson said:
A private pilot with no medical is flying under "sport pilot" rules but if they have an IFR rating (from there PPL) and E-LSA they can fly IFR.
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Says who?

A PPL holder isn’t flying under SP rules if he enters IMC. SP is VFR only.
 
So you’re a sport pilot. A person flying as a Sport Pilot cannot fly IFR, cannot by definition ever get an IFR rating.

But if you want IFR training to get sharper, improve your skills if you ever make a mistake and fly into IMC and need to get out quickly, I’m sure a CFII can help you out.
 
Just to confuse the issue…if you had ASEL and Instrument-Airplane ratings a the Private Pilot level, I believe you could fly IFR in a glider without a medical or Basic Med.
 
Rgbeard said:
but try and find a sailplane equipped with the minimum instrumentation for IFR operation
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What are the minimum instruments required for IFR operation in an unpowered sailplane?

(the only motorglider I’ve flown WAS equipped for IFR.)
 
Rgbeard said:
you know, I am realizing that I am way outside my knowledge. I am an IR power pilot and not near the regs to even properly continue what I started. Setting the chocks now and shutting down.

feel free to school me if you choose.
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91.205 says it only applies to powered aircraft. AFAIK, you can legally fly IFR in an unpowered glider without any gyros. Of course, if you fly in the clouds, you’d probably want at least a battery-powered T&B or a Bolli compass, but I don’t know that any regs exist requiring it.
 
Rgbeard said:
So what regs do cover non powered aircraft in IFR flight? I haven’t seen you reference them and I am genuinely curious.
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Same regs that apply to other IFR operations, except equipment as noted above, and currency requirements are spelled out in 61.57:
(3) Maintaining instrument recent experience in a glider.

(i) Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person must have performed and logged at least the following instrument currency tasks, iterations, and flight time, and the instrument currency must have been performed in actual weather conditions or under simulated weather conditions -

(A) One hour of instrument flight time in a glider or in a single engine airplane using a view-limiting device while performing interception and tracking courses through the use of navigation electronic systems.

(B) Two hours of instrument flight time in a glider or a single engine airplane with the use of a view-limiting device while performing straight glides, turns to specific headings, steep turns, flight at various airspeeds, navigation, and slow flight and stalls.

(ii) Before a pilot is allowed to carry a passenger in a glider under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, that pilot must -

(A) Have logged and performed 2 hours of instrument flight time in a glider within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight.

(B) Use a view-limiting-device while practicing performance maneuvers, performance airspeeds, navigation, slow flight, and stalls.
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61.3 says what ratings you need:
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating;
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For the most part there are only two reasons to fly IFR in a glider, with a third possible but not really practical

1. To fly in Class A airspace, which will most often be accomplished in VMC conditions. Only requires a radio, ADS-B transponder and any equipment specified by the sailplane manufacturer. As the FAR’s do not specify any minimum equipment for gliders, ADSB is specified for aircraft.

2. Wave flying. Is not an uncommon phenomenon when flying in mountain wave to have a slug moisture pass though and create an under cast that you will have to descend through to get down. Quite a few gliders are equipped with speed limiting drag devices like spoilers, dive brakes, flaps or even tail mounted drag chutes. The idea being that even in a vertical dive you can not exceed Vne. So even if all you had is an airspeed indicator (the only required instrument for at least one certified glider I am aware of) you could in certain circumstances be safe and legal.

3. Thermaling, into a cloud. Technically one could thermal up into a cloud but typically there is little benefit to this as the lift seldom goes much above the cloud.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
How can you get an instrument rating without already holding a PPL?
 
WDD said:
A person flying as a Sport Pilot cannot fly IFR, cannot by definition ever get an IFR rating.

But if you want IFR training to get sharper, improve your skills if you ever make a mistake and fly into IMC and need to get out quickly, I’m sure a CFII can help you out.
Click to expand...

As a sport pilot I've actually done a few approaches in VFR conditions with a CFII onboard, in a Warrior and in my own plane. I can't legally fly IFR nor do I want to but learning is almost always fun.

edit: removing my incorrect information.
 
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Daleandee said:
in class G airspace this means a sport pilot has a one mile visibility requirement.
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14 CFR 61.315(c)you may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
[...]
(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
(13) Without visual reference to the surface.
 
brcase said:
3. Thermaling, into a cloud. Technically one could thermal up into a cloud but typically there is little benefit to this as the lift seldom goes much above the cloud.
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It would also be nice to get that last 500 feet up to cloud base once in a while. ;)

I’ve played some games with ridge lift next to a cloud, but like you said, not much real benefit.
 
brcase said:
For the most part there are only two reasons to fly IFR in a glider, with a third possible but not really practical

1. To fly in Class A airspace, which will most often be accomplished in VMC conditions. Only requires a radio, ADS-B transponder and any equipment specified by the sailplane manufacturer. As the FAR’s do not specify any minimum equipment for gliders, ADSB is specified for aircraft.

2. Wave flying. Is not an uncommon phenomenon when flying in mountain wave to have a slug moisture pass though and create an under cast that you will have to descend through to get down. Quite a few gliders are equipped with speed limiting drag devices like spoilers, dive brakes, flaps or even tail mounted drag chutes. The idea being that even in a vertical dive you can not exceed Vne. So even if all you had is an airspeed indicator (the only required instrument for at least one certified glider I am aware of) you could in certain circumstances be safe and legal.

3. Thermaling, into a cloud. Technically one could thermal up into a cloud but typically there is little benefit to this as the lift seldom goes much above the cloud.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Interesting. I wonder how often ATC works a glider under IFR. I can imagine it would be challenging for them, since it would be tough to assign an altitude or a heading. I imagine they'd have to treat it much the way they do VFR flight following, except the glider would have an actual IFR clearance.

What's an IFR flight plan for a glider look like?
 
I have to give the LSA crowd credit, they don’t give up trying to find the crack in the regulations. One day maybe they will figure out LSA is the crack in the regulation.
 
Half Fast said:
Interesting. I wonder how often ATC works a glider under IFR. I can imagine it would be challenging for them, since it would be tough to assign an altitude or a heading. I imagine they'd have to treat it much the way they do VFR flight following, except the glider would have an actual IFR clearance.

What's an IFR flight plan for a glider look like?
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I haven't done it before. I have worked with them within a Wave Window which is a VFR flight above 18,000 feet. I expect they would do it pretty much the same way which is to just assign us a destination and a block altitude. In the Wave Window I have had them just say cleared up to FL23.

I was finally able to install ADS-B in my glider last year, so a bit more likely to try an IFR clearance if the weather opportunity presents itself.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
 
Clip4 said:
I have to give the LSA crowd credit, they don’t give up trying to find the crack in the regulations. One day maybe they will figure out LSA is the crack in the regulation.
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I admire LSA and the LSA crowd.

On another topic - I would have never guessed that you could fly a glider IFR, or that you'd ever want to. Crazy!
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
14 CFR 61.315(c)you may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
[...]
(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
(13) Without visual reference to the surface.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir. I knew this but a recently minted sport pilot friend of mine had a DPE that insisted that the rule in G airspace was different. Who am I to argue with a DPE ...

... or a confused student pilot.
 
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Daleandee said:
Thank you sir. I knew this but a recently minted sport pilot friend of mine had a DPE that insisted that the rule in G airspace was different. Who am I to argue with a DPE ...
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You don’t argue, you say “got a reference for that?” and wait for them to find the reg.
 
WDD said:
I admire LSA and the LSA crowd.
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Light Sport is a terrific way to start flying, especially since they fixed the training rules and now accept SP training toward PP. SP is a good way to start for several reasons:

1) No medical required, so no delays to solo while waiting for OKC to get around to issuing an SI and no risk of a denial
2) The pilot is forced to fly in simple, slow planes. No students trying to buy a twin retractable to learn in.
3) Good stick & rudder skill training. Due to the low wing loading, LSAs are tricky to land in gusty or crosswind conditions. When I transitioned from a Tecnam LSA into a Cherokee, it was like having an auto-land system.
4) Unlike the Rec ticket, SP is a useful license. It's easy to get the endorsement to use towered airports, and you can fly anywhere in the US and the Bahamas. Lots of folks do serious XC flying in LSAs (witness the recent round-the-world flight). And most people with PP are flying day VFR with one or no passengers anyway, so the SP limits aren't much of a burden.
5) If you complete the SP cert, all your training counts toward PP should you decide to get a medical and continue training. Going to PP was actually pretty simple for me; I just needed the night training and a little extra hood time.
6) It's the minimal financial investment to get a pilot's license.
7) Lots of good aircraft all through the financial spectrum, from modern glass cockpit birds to classics like Ercoupes and Luscombes. Even seaplanes.​


WDD said:
On another topic - I would have never guessed that you could fly a glider IFR, or that you'd ever want to. Crazy!
Click to expand...

You might consider that motor gliders can be flown without a medical. For a pilot who can no longer get a medical but has a PPL + IFR, a motor glider might be very useful.
 
WDD said:
If outside of a check ride, then maybe.
If in a check ride, no, I'm not going up that hill. :)
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It's all in how you phrase it. "Got a reference for that?" is confrontational. Instead, pick up the FAR/AIM while saying, "Wow, I didn't realize that. Can you help me find the reg?"

One is challenging the person and implying his ignorance, the other is enlisting his assistance and implying his superior wisdom. Both approaches can get you to the desired regulatory answer, but only one preserves open communication.
 
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