Light Sport Glider Training?
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tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
Pretty much any glider club or commercial operation could train for it. I think most trainers meet the light sport rule...but why wouldn't you just get the private glider? No medical required either way and with private you can fly any glider and above 10k...
ChopAndDrop
Pre-takeoff checklist
Wait,, what is this?
I’ve got a glider rating, and I’ve never heard of a “Light sport Glider”.
The two-seat trainers we have are certificated as “Glider”. Never seen or heard of any category of aircraft certification for “Light Sport Glider”
Are you talking the aircraft, as in a “Motor Glider” that fits within LSA rules?
Or are you asking about a category of license, like Sport Pilot license with Glider rating ???
You said you have an existing PPL, so if you went to a Glider port asking for instruction, they’d just get you a Glider add-on rating to your existing PPL.
(for private pilot Glider, there is no medical required).
edit to add:
well I’ll be… there is such a thing as Sport pilot with Glider category…, I’ve never heard of it before:
https://www.ctsoaring.org/post/2018/04/12/sport-pilot-certification-for-glider-pilots
If you go to a glider instructor asking for this, you’ll probably have to explain these details, most that I’ve met don’t know about Sport Pilot because it really has no applicability to the Glider world (no medical needed for Private, so no need for Sport pilot in gliders ).
I’ve got a glider rating, and I’ve never heard of a “Light sport Glider”.
At the two glider-ports I’ve been to, I’ve never seen any such thing.
The two-seat trainers we have are certificated as “Glider”. Never seen or heard of any category of aircraft certification for “Light Sport Glider”
Are you talking the aircraft, as in a “Motor Glider” that fits within LSA rules?
Or are you asking about a category of license, like Sport Pilot license with Glider rating ???
You said you have an existing PPL, so if you went to a Glider port asking for instruction, they’d just get you a Glider add-on rating to your existing PPL.
(for private pilot Glider, there is no medical required).
edit to add:
well I’ll be… there is such a thing as Sport pilot with Glider category…, I’ve never heard of it before:
https://www.ctsoaring.org/post/2018/04/12/sport-pilot-certification-for-glider-pilots
If you go to a glider instructor asking for this, you’ll probably have to explain these details, most that I’ve met don’t know about Sport Pilot because it really has no applicability to the Glider world (no medical needed for Private, so no need for Sport pilot in gliders ).
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Sport Pilot glider makes sense for a pilot who wants to add a glider rating to an existing Sport Pilot certificate. But even if you're exercising only light sport privileges on your private certificate because you lack a medical certificate, you can add on a private glider rating. The potential catch is that to solo in the glider, the private pilot will have to have a current BFR in an airplane. That could be an issue if you're currently not flying at all.
I don't know if I am getting this correct, but I think a ppl can transition to a sport pilot glider without a current BFR, without solo time, without any written test, and the proficiency check ride can be performed by a second instructor that does not have to be a DPE. My BFR is not current, and I would enjoy getting the glider experience and transition that would also satisfy my BFR.
This link below was written in 2018, so I don't know if there have been any regulatory changes that invalidate the info. What do you all think?
https://www.ctsoaring.org/post/2018/04/12/sport-pilot-certification-for-glider-pilots
This link below was written in 2018, so I don't know if there have been any regulatory changes that invalidate the info. What do you all think?
https://www.ctsoaring.org/post/2018/04/12/sport-pilot-certification-for-glider-pilots
It is my understanding that no solo is required to get the light sport glider, and the successful completion of the check ride will satisfy the BFR.
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Greg Bockelman
I never understood this what’s the rationale?
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Aircraft certificate types and Sport Pilot privileges are two (semi) unrelated things.
A Sport pilot can operate a "Light Sport Aircraft" as defined in FAR 1.1 which specifies things such as weight, seats, speeds, etc. but not certificate type.
S-LSA and E-LSA are just alternate ways to certify an aircraft that happen to meet the LSA definition.
The big difference between a powered LSA such as a Cub and a glider that qualifies as an LSA is that the glider can have retractable gear and a glider has a limit on VNE of 120 knots.
A person can get "Sport Pilot" instruction in many gliders from any instructor.
But, the sensible thing would be for the O.P. to get a flight review in a 172 then just get the private glider ticket.
brcase
En-Route
Not True as I read the FAR's that you can get a Sport Pilot Glider rating without solo time....
(c) Glider category privileges, and you have logged 20 hours flight time in a heavier-than-air aircraft, (1) 3 hours of flight time in a glider, including five flights in a glider while receiving flight training from an authorized instructor and at least 1 hour of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.311, (i) Three solo launches and landings, and (ii) at least 3 training flights with an authorized instructor on those areas of operation specified in § 61.311 in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.
(c) Glider category privileges, and you have logged 20 hours flight time in a heavier-than-air aircraft, (1) 3 hours of flight time in a glider, including five flights in a glider while receiving flight training from an authorized instructor and at least 1 hour of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.311, (i) Three solo launches and landings, and (ii) at least 3 training flights with an authorized instructor on those areas of operation specified in § 61.311 in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.
brcase
En-Route
I am aware of this requirement, I don't quite recall the history of it. I suspect it is the result of a Legal Counsel letter. I am a bit miffed at the FAA about this requirement, but haven't had the need or desire to investigate if it should be challenged. Pretty much every other Pilot certificate, also gives you the privilege's of a lower certificate. i.e. if you have commercial certificate you can also exercise the the privileges of both a Private or Light Sport certificate, if you have private certificate you can also exercise the the privileges' of a Light Sport Certificate. It would then make sense that a holder of a Light sport, Private, or commercial certificate could also exercise the privileges' of a Student pilot certificate, but somewhere the FAA seems to have gone off the rails with that logic.
I am mildly curious if the point has been made the FAA Legal Counsel. I generally recommend not asking as we generally don't like their answer, but in this case with what I know so far I don't really see any down side to asking. But I would do my homework on the issue before doing so.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Sport Pilot is different. For initial sport pilot license, yes there are minimum hours required, but they are not 20. Sport pilot glider is 10 hrs, with 8 dual & 2 solo. However, for an additional category or class of light-sport, it requires receiving instruction on applicable areas of knowledge and areas of operation. It is up to the instructor to decide when the student is proficient, regardless of hours, and no solo time required. After the student passes the proficiency check with a second CFI, it is just a logbook entry, similar to getting an endorsement for tailwheel transition or high performance with a standard PPL.
61.321 How do I obtain privileges to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft? If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft, you must— (a) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who trained you on the applicable aeronautical knowledge areas specified in §61.309 and areas of operation specified in §61.311. The endorsement certifies you have met the aeronautical knowledge and flight proficiency requirements for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek; (b) Successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized instructor other than the instructor who trained you on the aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation specified in §§61.309 and 61.311 for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek:
Lindberg
Final Approach
No idea if there is any rationale at all, I think it's merely a consequence of the fact that a certificated pilot must have a current BFR in order to act as PIC in any aircraft, and they didn't create an excepted for solo training in a new category/class. And I can tell you from experience that many CFIs and even some DPEs are not aware of this. Or maybe they ignore it because it doesn't make any sense.
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Witmo
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For a ppl power to add sport pilot glider privileges rather than go the ppl glider route, you save the cost and hassle of getting a checkride from an FAA DPE/glider. Since DPEs have raised the cost of their checkrides so much, you can save a chunk of change by just getting the sport pilot glider add on and paying the instructors (need at least two, one for the training and one for the endorcement "checkride.")
Lindberg
Final Approach
Do you hold a sport pilot certificate? If not, look at 61.303 for the pilot certificate you have, then go to 61.321. Either way, I would be surprised, but not shocked, if an instructor would endorse you without at least some solo time.
Regardless, if you have access to a light-sport eligible airplane or qualify for basic med, why not just get a BFR and then a private glider rating? Then you can go on to commercial and CFI-G... Come to think of it, you can't be PIC for the BFR anyway, so you could do it in any airplane.
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It would be an inefficient use of resources to use an airplane for a BFR that I will never ever fly, when there is a better way. I would rather use the resources to obtain additional skills. There is no need for me to get a private glider certificate when light sport glider is available. If I can find somebody who does it, the following time a BFR is due, I would do a LTA- balloon light sport. I did the commercial pilot thing already and am done with it. From now on, it is just for personal enjoyment and fulfillment. My dad was a pilot, so my childhood was spent in and around single engine airplanes. When I was old enough to get a license, fixed wing seemed so ordinary. The excitement level was about the same as getting a driver's license, so I went the ppl rotorcraft route first before fixed wing.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Why wouldn't the second instructor charge almost as much as a checkride? Are there so many more of them that they can't?
Lindberg
Final Approach
You do you, but if you have a commercial cert, it seems like a waste not to just do the glider add-on. And if you get current in airplanes and can tow, you'd be very in demand at the glider port and not at all bored.
Witmo
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Tim
"Student pilots", once they become certificated, lose the "Student" in front of pilot. To act as PIC for a flight, you either are a student pilot who has been endorced for solo, or a pilot with a current flight review and endorcement for soloing the glider. Since a private pilot can no longer call himself a student even though he's training for another category of aircraft, he has to have a current flight review in one of whatever he is certified to fly to act as PIC. It works similar for a glider pilot wanting to add SEL to his certificate. He'd need to get a flight review in glider and additionally, he'd have to get a medical, before he could be legal to solo a SEL. The requirement to have a current FR is consistent if you read the regulations as they are currently written. Good luck getting the FAA to change the regulations to make it easier on pilots to forgo getting a flight review.
Witmo
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Tim
Most instructors charge their standard rate for providing instruction to give the endorcement check. DPEs do have a lot of overhead that their checkride fee has to cover, at least that's the partial reason they charge so much. DPEs have to keep their FSDO overlords happy as their DPE ticket rides on whims of their FSDO. The aggravation that entails may also justify "some" of their fee.
CPL. 61.303 allows ppl and above to operate as a sport pilot and exercise the privileges of a sport pilot certificate. If ramp checked, show pilot's and driver's licenses and tell inspector you are operating as a sport pilot.
As far as getting a cfi to sign off, you may be right. That is why I am trying to find any place that is actually doing the light sport glider training and see what they standard procedures are.
brcase
En-Route
Good point, I wasn't thinking of it from the point of view that you already have a Sport Pilot certificate (or better, PPL) and you are just adding a category to the PPL.
Brian
Not asking the FAA to change regulations, merely following what they already are. I believe that acting as PIC is not a requirement per the regulations to add an additional category or class to a sport pilot. Getting a CFI to sign off for the proficiency check is another story, and maybe is impossible. No question that the FAA accepts that adding an additional category or class satisfies the BFR.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Don't need an LSA for a flight review even if you don't have any medical. You need a medical to act as PIC in a not-LSA but not to get instruction.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I understand the regs. But understanding the reg and the rationale for it are two different things. And frankly I don't think it was intentional.
Okay, so I need your opinions here. Following is some excerpts from the article I linked in #5 above. I am trying to either prove it or debunk it. Any FAA decisions that address this, or applicable FARs that contradict his opinion?
So, what are your options if you are an out-of-currency powered pilot who is ready to solo in the glider? You have two options: get a flight review in a category/class aircraft that you are rated in, like a 172 or Warrior, which may add time and expense to your glider pursuit, or the second option of which CSA’s Stephen Williams took advantage this past summer to get his glider certificate without having to resort to a flight review in something he will never fly….
Sport Pilot Option
Several years ago, the FAA created the sport pilot certificate as a way to enable pilots who wanted to fly simpler aircraft to get their license without a lot of the burden that private pilots have to go through. Consequently, there are more restrictions on sport pilots and the aircraft they can fly.
Sport Pilots are covered by Subpart J of Part 61.For pilots who are already certificated at a higher level (i.e.; Private, Commercial), the aeronautical experience is listed the table in Part 61.303 and 61.321. So Stephen, for example, has a commercial certificate with airplane single and multi engine land ratings.To get a sport pilot certificate with a glider category, we start at Part 61.303 – and look at the section for those who hold at least a private pilot certificate but not a rating for the category and class of light sport you wish to operate (i.e. glider):
What the FAA does here is to give you credit for being a certificated pilot already at a level higher than Sport Pilot. The implication of that is that by meeting the requirements of Part 61.321 for category and class endorsements at the sport pilot level, a transitioning pilot can meet the aeronautical experience requirements necessary for exercising sport pilot privileges without a solo flight requirement.
So, what are your options if you are an out-of-currency powered pilot who is ready to solo in the glider? You have two options: get a flight review in a category/class aircraft that you are rated in, like a 172 or Warrior, which may add time and expense to your glider pursuit, or the second option of which CSA’s Stephen Williams took advantage this past summer to get his glider certificate without having to resort to a flight review in something he will never fly….
Sport Pilot Option
Several years ago, the FAA created the sport pilot certificate as a way to enable pilots who wanted to fly simpler aircraft to get their license without a lot of the burden that private pilots have to go through. Consequently, there are more restrictions on sport pilots and the aircraft they can fly.
Sport Pilots are covered by Subpart J of Part 61.For pilots who are already certificated at a higher level (i.e.; Private, Commercial), the aeronautical experience is listed the table in Part 61.303 and 61.321. So Stephen, for example, has a commercial certificate with airplane single and multi engine land ratings.To get a sport pilot certificate with a glider category, we start at Part 61.303 – and look at the section for those who hold at least a private pilot certificate but not a rating for the category and class of light sport you wish to operate (i.e. glider):
What the FAA does here is to give you credit for being a certificated pilot already at a level higher than Sport Pilot. The implication of that is that by meeting the requirements of Part 61.321 for category and class endorsements at the sport pilot level, a transitioning pilot can meet the aeronautical experience requirements necessary for exercising sport pilot privileges without a solo flight requirement.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The article says Stephen Williams got an opinion from the FAA on this. I can't find a chief counsel letter, but maybe he just asked his local FSDO.
Here's where you could look:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...c/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/
Pinecone
En-Route
How you do 3 solo launches and landings without flying solo?
NorthEast Ohio
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Glider training in LSA:
https://aircraftking.com/randvollmer/
https://aircraftking.com/randvollmer/
Thank you. I checked out his website, but he teaches in a motor glider.
The requirements of 61.313 are applicable when applying for an initial sport pilot certificate. Adding a logbook endorsement for an additional category or class to an already certified pilot is covered by 61.321. Following is copied from the CFI's Guide to Light Sport that I linked below:
A pilot seeking to add a new category or class must first receive ground instruction and flight training from an authorized instructor. Training of the applicant will proceed much as that for an applicant for an initial sport pilot certificate; however, no written test is required no matter what category or class the applicant is transitioning from, nor is the applicant held to the minimum flight time requirements of an initial applicant. Additionally, since the pilot is already rated, a student pilot certificate is not required, nor is the applicant held to any of the prerequisite solo or cross-country training requirements of a student pilot.
Please correct me if I am getting this wrong. I don't want to be posting false information. I am just trying to sort out everything that I have been reading.
https://chesapeakesportpilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/NAFI-CFI-Sport-Guide.pdf
Pinecone
En-Route
I see what the NAFI document says, but I don't see in the FAA regs stated that this is the case. OTOH, they do not say that one needs to meet the aeronautical experience requirements either.
Interesting. I have never really looked at Sport Pilot, because it came out well after I had my Commercial, so did not see the point for me.
Interesting. I have never really looked at Sport Pilot, because it came out well after I had my Commercial, so did not see the point for me.
MauleSkinner
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What exactly are you not seeing in the regulations? Here is the reg for an additional category or class privileges at the Sport Pilot level…
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Call Rand Volmer in KZPH, he can give you exactly what you need in a PIPISTREL can be both S-LSA GLIDER and E-LSA glider
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SoarPaso
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Nick @ Soar Paso
Soar Paso in Paso Robles, California offers this 7 days a week
iAlex
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Do you offer self launch endorsements?
SoarPaso
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Yes! We are exclusively self-launch for gliders.
So I’m a tad confused by all of this. It seems as if getting a PPL-G could be a faster and cheaper path to getting a ASEL-Sport ticket; a cheat code of sorts. Are there any restrictions? This seems a tad unsafe, but maybe I dont understand all the content covered in glider training or the level of scrutiny the seconded CFI must have in suffice of a DPE.
I’m a current and proficient Sport Pilot who is interested in soaring—especially with the fewer limitations of SPL. Would I be able to train for the PPL-G, just like a fresh student, do a check ride, then go straight for the ASEL-S endorsement or do I automatically have the ASEL-S rating? Do I surrender my Sport Pilot ticket for a PPL with a glider and ASEL-S rating; does a 8710 get filled for that?
This is all making my head spin a little.
I’m a current and proficient Sport Pilot who is interested in soaring—especially with the fewer limitations of SPL. Would I be able to train for the PPL-G, just like a fresh student, do a check ride, then go straight for the ASEL-S endorsement or do I automatically have the ASEL-S rating? Do I surrender my Sport Pilot ticket for a PPL with a glider and ASEL-S rating; does a 8710 get filled for that?
This is all making my head spin a little.
If you have currently a sport pilot certificate and get a private in gliders, you surrender your SP certificate and get a PP with a glider rating. You can fly gliders (LSA or not) as a PP, and you still have the airplane endorsement so you can still exercise SP privileges in LSA airplanes. If you want to fly heavier or faster airplanes as a PP, you need to take a checkride to add the PP rating to your certificate.
Interesting... So what would be the requirements of the checkride? Would I need to conduct the night xc solos, and would the DPE be able to act as PIC because I don't have a medical? I'm essentially asking if it is possible for someone to obtain a PPL-airplane, without a medical. Obviously they wouldn't be able to exercise PPL-airplane privledges since a medical is requried.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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No.
14 CFR 61.23(a)(3)(iii)