Liberty XL2? Anyone know about it?

kicktireslightfires

kicktireslightfires

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kicktireslightfires
Everything I've read suggests it's a great plane, especially for the money -- there's a few for sale right now for around $60k. But most everything written about it was back when they were making these things last decade. Anyone have any updated info? Are they selling for so little right now because -- like the Cessna 162 -- parts are hard to come by? It's not the most beautiful plane, but it does appear to have some smart engineering and it also has a FADEC.

Here's a good article about it: https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/liberty-xl2-trainer-with-a-difference/

Curious to anyone's opinion about it who's more knowledgable about it.
 
There's one for sale near me that's been listed for over a year, doesn't seem to be moving.

Why the interest in FADEC?
 
jrcox19 said:
There's one for sale near me that's been listed for over a year, doesn't seem to be moving.

Why the interest in FADEC?
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Simplicity; reduction of pilot load. I like technology. :)
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Simplicity; reduction of pilot load. Pretty sure that's the reason they were invented.
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I'll give you that it should reduce pilot workload, very very slightly. A low production FADEC like the one used on the IOF-240 probably isn't what I would consider simple though. Sure, you've eliminated one scary lever (Mixture) -- but now you're depending on a fadec that isn't well supported or maintainable.
 
jrcox19 said:
I'll give you that it should reduce pilot workload, very very slightly. A low production FADEC like the one used on the IOF-240 probably isn't what I would consider simple though. Sure, you've eliminated one scary lever (Mixture) -- but now you're depending on a fadec that isn't well supported or maintainable.
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I've flown behind an Austro AE300. With both a limp-home mode and a backup ECU, I felt pretty comfortable with it.
 
Try going on the Liberty xl2 forum . All your questions have probably been answered. I own a liberty it’s a great airplane for my mission. Fadec makes it fuel efficient.the airplane is fun to fly.
 
frfly172 said:
Try going on the Liberty xl2 forum . All your questions have probably been answered. I own a liberty it’s a great airplane for my mission. Fadec makes it fuel efficient.the airplane is fun to fly.
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Parts / mx support?
 
the Liberty forum can give you answers to most of your questions. The maintenance section is quite inclusive.
 
I remember looking at these when I was plane shopping for my first plane. It seemed very expensive for what you get, hence they sit for a while prior to sale. I bought a Grumman AA1 and saved $40k
 
Have you considered a Vashon Ranger? Brand new, well-equipped for $99K. Never flew in it, but sat in one and talked to the owner. Seems great.
 
Hi, just curious, did you end up buying this plane?
 
I did not. I ended up going for a low hour C162 Skycatcher. Love it! And I thought parts would be hard to get but they are incredibly easy and very available!
 
Tirekicker... Pardon me for saying so... (and I suspect that you may be the fellow who strung me along for weeks saying you'd be buying my XL-2 last year)... but the Skycatcher and the Liberty are not even in the same league in terms of performance, fun factor, or capability. As far as I know, the Skycatcher may not be operated in IMC/IFR conditions. In that respect, you can do some instrument training in it if you upgrade the panel, but you can't actually fly in IMC. It's like a DA-20 that way. ) The 162 is an LSA, right? The XL-2 is a solid Part 23 IMC platform, having flown it in Wx myself. I sold my XL-2 a year ago, and moved to an RV-7 but if you bought a 162, you bought the lesser airplane, by a lot. (I have time in both.) Both the Skycatcher and the Liberty are essentially orphaned types at this point, so I'm not sure you've got an advantage in either one. If you are who I think you are, your username is apropos. Anyway, my old XL-2 is now owned and flown by a SWA Captain who is teaching his sons to fly. It's a fine airplane for training and casual cross country applications. 120 KTS on 5.5 GPH is hard to beat in a certified aircraft, with some real fun factor, which the XL-2 has in spades.

Back when I sold my XL-2, the company was still solvent, and TCM was still supporting the IOF-240-B5B even though lead times could be long ones. Discovery Aviation has since ceased operations, but unless you break the airframe, most parts are available from the vendors from whom they were sourced. There are precisely three very simple, small parts which must be replaced at 500 hour intervals, all of which can be machined very simply if inventory is unobtanium. I think the firewall blanket and engine are due at 2,000 hours, but most people continue to operate these on condition rather than time, which is permissible under Part 91. Lastly, there is a tenacious owner group who share knowledge on the XL-2 forums. Once of the former factory sales guys is spearheading an effort for a conventional IO-240, non-FADEC conversion, which would make thinks so much easier. Some folks are working on a Rotax conversion as well. I'm still there helping out on parts identification and sourcing, quite often. I'd love to see someone take over the type certificate, and the considerable parts inventory that was left by Discovery.
 
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GimpyPilot said:
Tirekicker... Pardon me for saying so... (and I suspect that you may be the fellow who strung me along for weeks saying you'd be buying my XL-2 last year)... but the Skycatcher and the Liberty are not even in the same league in terms of performance, fun factor, or capability. As far as I know, the Skycatcher may not be operated in IMC/IFR operations. In that respect, you can do some instrument training in it if you upgrade the panel, but you can't actually fly in IMC. It's like a DA-20 that way. ) The XL-2 is a solid IMC platform, having flown it in Wx myself. I sold my XL-2 a year ago, and moved to an RV-7 but if you bought a 162, you bought the lesser airplane, by a lot. (I have time in both.) Both the Skycatcher and the Liberty are essentially orphaned types at this point, so I'm not sure you've got an advantage in either one. If you are who I think you are, your username is apropos. Anyway, my old XL-2 is now owned and flown by a SWA Captain who is teaching his sons to fly. It's a fine airplane for training and casual cross country applications. 120 KTS on 5.5 GPH is hard to beat in a certified aircraft, with some real fun factor, which the XL-2 has in spades.

Back when I sold my XL-2, the company was still solvent, and TCM was still supporting the IOF-240-B5B even though lead times could be long ones. Discovery Aviation has since ceased operations, but unless you break the airframe, most parts are available from the vendors from whom they were sourced. There are precisely three very simple, small parts which must be replaced at 500 hour intervals, all of which can be machined very simply if inventory is unobtanium. I think the firewall blanket and engine are due at 2,000 hours, but most people continue to operate these on condition rather than time, which is permissible under Part 91. Lastly, there is a tenacious owner group who share knowledge on the XL-2 forums. Once of the former factory sales guys is spearheading an effort for a conventional IO-240, non-FADEC conversion, which would make thinks so much easier. Some folks are working on a Rotax conversion as well. I'm still there helping out on parts identification and sourcing, quite often. I'd love to see someone take over the type certificate, and the considerable parts inventory that was left by Discovery.
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GrumpyPilot, you definitely have me confused with someone else. That is not my username nor did I ever inquire on one of these.
 
CRQFlier said:
Curious, what was your real world TAS at generally what altitude in the XL2?
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The factory numbers were fairly good ones in my experience. My Liberty flew an honest 60% Power/120 KTS @ 6,000 feet on a standard day. (I'm in Southern California, so we don't have a lot of those.)
 
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Believe it or not, it looks like Discovery Aviation/Liberty Aerospace may rise from the ashes yet again. They've established the website at a different URL: https://www.discoveryaviation.us/ and my old user credentials still work. (I sold my XL-2 for an RV-7 last year, but I still believe the Liberty is a great little airplane. I'm happy to have spent 300 hours post-private in one.) It would appear that the Florida corporation was reinstated on 02/23/2021.

One of the current aircraft owners apparently spoke with Jason Russell, who is the president of the company. He indicated that the FAA has to complete an audit of the new facility before they can sell parts again. Mr. Russell is estimating parts availability in August.

Note, apart from verifying that my old credentials still work in the "new" website, I have no direct knowledge of any of this.
 
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Needs a Rotax putting in it.
 
Bathman said:
Needs a Rotax putting in it.
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I'm not sure it "needs" a Rotax, but if TCM sticks to guns and insists on large orders, that's probably what will happen. (Personally, I'm not a fan of geared engines.) Apparently the airframe was originally designed with a Rotax in mind, and they had one at Osh with a Rotax 912 in it many years ago, but it apparently did not fly. That said, it can be done if someone pursues an STC, which will likely include revised cowls and engine mount. I had heard that was the direction things were heading when the company was shuttered last fall.).

Another group was working on a "skunkworks" project to convert the IOF-240 to standard IO-240 spec, so that the airplane could be re-engined with traditional fuel injection and a mixture control. That would certainly alleviate the FADEC availability problems, and make dealing with the quirky FADECs and associated expenses a non-issue... but the FADEC was a big part of the marketing approach as that's how Liberty/Discovery derived the 5ish GPH at 120 knots training numbers. In my experience, the fuel savings were consumed by increased maintenance costs and then some. Flying your first 40 - 60 hours without any notion of mixture controls might not be ideal, given that transition to other things will be a learning curve to deal with.
 
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GimpyPilot said:
Apparently the airframe was originally designed with a Rotax in mind, and they had one at Osh with a Rotax 912 in it many years ago, but it apparently did not fly.
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Correct, the Liberty is based on the kit-built Europa and most of those are flying with either a 912 UL, 912 ULS or 914. You can get quite good speeds at altitude with the retractable monowheel version and a turbocharged 914.
 
Spinka said:
Correct, the Liberty is based on the kit-built Europa and most of those are flying with either a 912 UL, 912 ULS or 914. You can get quite good speeds at altitude with the retractable monowheel version and a turbocharged 914.
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Ivan Shaw designed both airplanes to be sure, and the XL-2 is certainly very similar to the Europa XLS Tri-Gear, but it's different in a lot of ways too. Notably, the laminar flow wing of the Europa is gone from the Liberty, and it's a shame. I don't know for sure, but the FAA probably balked at the idea of a composite wing in GA in 2004, when the XL-2 was first being certified. There were several other sacrifices as well. The Liberty is also taller and wider than is the Europa. (Having flown some of each, and owned a Liberty for several years, I am somewhat familiar.) If one looks head on at the Liberty, you notice that the cowl appears to be ever so slightly offset as compared to the propeller and spinner. This is an artifact of the Liberty itself having been originally designed with a Rotax in mind. Midway through, there was a shift to the Continental, probably for marketing reasons. Rotax wasn't as established in the certified market the way it is now, and the Liberty was originally marketed as an advanced trainer.
 
I've flown this airplane for a short demo flight way back in the mid 2000's. I recall liking it a lot.
 
Did my instrument in the Liberty in 2009. Liked it a lot, good little instrument flyer but never could land it smooth. Unfortunately the FADEC broke right before checkride and I had to use a PA28.
 
Owner for over 11 years ,just sold it. Was a great airplane,met my mission . Was a good airplane in IMC . A lot of people with negative comments have never owned one or even flown one.
 
Velocity173 said:
...Liked it a lot, good little instrument flyer but never could land it smooth.
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Yes. The XL-2 will definitely tune up your landings, which is a good thing. My RV-7A is much more forgiving than was my Liberty that way, but the Liberty is not difficult to land well once you get it figured out. If you get a landing that's not working out, you've got to park the ego and go around. Forcing it on is a good way to break it. In a sense, the XL-2 is a great trainer that way because it requires good technique to land well. From another perspective the opposite is true because a badly botched landing can get expensive very quickly. I started in Skyhawks and Warriors. If I had started in the XL-2, I feel like my landings would have been much more consistent from go, not because it's easier, but because it is necessary.

I never had much in the way of FADEC issues in seven years of ownership, but the system can be quirky. The bottom line is that the XL-2 is a joy to fly. It isn't fast, but its flight characteristics are direct, and the controls are light and precise. It's easy to fly, but the landings take a bit of discipline. Fuel burn is minimal, workload is great, and mechanics are generally pleasantly surprised at the ease of maintenance. IMC is no problem, if you are so inclined.
 
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