Liability waivers

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
Advance edit: Let’s leave this thread to those who think waivers* are a good idea / useful / actually ‘enforceable’ ie can possibly protect owner/operator in some circumstances. I would find it helpful not to sidetrack my thread with lengthy distractions in that direction, and respectfully request those wanting to go that way to start their own separate thread.

(*and, giving rides to yoots)

On the AOPA site (yes, I appreciate the AOPA, if you do not - again, please: another thread)
it says

“….TO RELEASE SOMEONE FROM LIABILITY
FOR HIS/HER NEGLIGENCE MAY BE VOID; AND/OR (2) NOT EVEN A
PARENT MAY SIGN A RELEASE ON BEHALF OF HIS/HER CHILD…..”

Here is the only important question of this thread:

What is the bold part saying?
I want to take a minor (<18yrs, Texas) for a Sunday morning hop to expose them to GA.
Is this saying there is no point in having the parent sign anything?


 
They're saying that in some states a parent can't adequately release you for claims on behalf their minor child. If you want to know what's true in your state, you need to speak to an attorney licensed in your state.
 
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In Florida there is a law the exempts equine activities from being sued except in the case of negligence. You can never waive your responsibility for negligence. Most people involved make the parents sign a waiver any way. And in that waiver it in includes the law as it's written. So depending on your state it's possible a waiver due to injury caused by participation in a dangerous activity could be enforced.

Most parents have to sign a waiver for their children so they can participate in sports or other after school activities related to school.
 
The EAA has the parent of every kid who goes on a young eagles flight sign a waiver, so they must think there's some value.

Are you familiar with young eagles? There are some benefits to kid as well like free ground school and written test. If they're over 17, the "eagle flight" program is available as well.
 
This is all helpful, thank you.
I am an EAA member as well; good tip.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
This is all helpful, thank you.
I am an EAA member as well; good tip.
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Maybe too late for this one, but EAA will send you a packet for free with waivers, certificates, and logbooks that you can hand out when doing young eagle flights. They don't have to be done in conjunction with a rally. You do have to do a short training class every couple years to remind you not to be a creeper. Takes like 5 minutes. I have never done the adult "eagle" program, but I think they provide materials and waivers for that as well.
 
Jim K said:
Maybe too late for this one, but EAA will send you a packet for free with waivers, certificates, and logbooks that you can hand out when doing young eagle flights. They don't have to be done in conjunction with a rally. You do have to do a short training class every couple years to remind you not to be a creeper. Takes like 5 minutes. I have never done the adult "eagle" program, but I think they provide materials and waivers for that as well.
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This is actually perfect, signing up now. thanks for the link, @Salty
 
Jim K said:
The EAA has the parent of every kid who goes on a young eagles flight sign a waiver, so they must think there's some value.

Are you familiar with young eagles? There are some benefits to kid as well like free ground school and written test. If they're over 17, the "eagle flight" program is available as well.
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If a member of the general public asked me about taking their child to an EAA Young Eagle Event, I would discourage them and tell them to pay for a discovery flight at a flight school with a CFI.
 
Clip4 said:
If a member of the general public asked me about taking their child to an EAA Young Eagle Event, I would discourage them and tell them to pay for a discovery flight at a flight school with a CFI.
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Cool story. Somehow I'm not surprised.

I wouldn't hesitate to let my kids ride with any of the pilots who fly my chapter's events (even me). In fact, my oldest got her first GA flight at a YE event before I started flying. They all have way more experience and better judgement than the 300 hour 20yo cfi's at my local flight school.
 
A determined lawyer will punch through any waiver. You can't waive gross negligence and you can't waive someone else's right to sue.
 
Not a lawyer. Did help out with a teaching kids to fly RC program. We didn't have any waivers. We did insist that at all times, no exceptions, there was never an instructor alone with a student. We also encouraged the parents to attend all sessions, and had parents present at all sessions. Never had a problem. Oh, and we did a safety briefing before flight time, every time.

So long story short, I'd take one of their parents along for the flight. Might seem like a PITA, but to me it's the clear way to do things these days.
 
Clip4 said:
If a member of the general public asked me about taking their child to an EAA Young Eagle Event, I would discourage them and tell them to pay for a discovery flight at a flight school with a CFI.
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Most of those guys flying Young eagles have more experience and are better sticks than the CFIs. Many of them actually are CFIs, as well as ATPs with hours in five digits.
 
flyingron said:
A determined lawyer will punch through any waiver. You can't waive gross negligence and you can't waive someone else's right to sue.
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I doubt there are any states which allow intentional acts and gross negligence to be waived.

But aside from that, whenever I see a waiver discussion, I wonder how many claims have been dismissed by courts because someone signed a waiver believing in the myth of unenforceability. Plenty have been dismissed, but I haven't seen one where the plaintiff's belief was discussed.
 
Clip4 said:
If a member of the general public asked me about taking their child to an EAA Young Eagle Event, I would discourage them and tell them to pay for a discovery flight at a flight school with a CFI.
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Hopefully they ask someone other than you.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I doubt there are any states which allow intentional acts and gross negligence to be waived.

But aside from that, whenever I see a waiver discussion, I wonder how many claims have been dismissed by courts because someone signed a waiver believing in the myth of unenforceability. Plenty have been dismissed, but I haven't seen one where the plaintiff's belief was discussed.
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The waiver doesn't stop suits or even much defend on them if they say "I'm not going to sue." What they can show is that you were aware of the risks. For example, when I did a tandem skydive jump, they made me watch a video and sign a waiver saying I was pretty much aware I was going to die in the process. It would have been a defense against me claiming they had assured me of my safety, yada yada.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I doubt there are any states which allow intentional acts and gross negligence to be waived.

But aside from that, whenever I see a waiver discussion, I wonder how many claims have been dismissed by courts because someone signed a waiver believing in the myth of unenforceability. Plenty have been dismissed, but I haven't seen one where the plaintiff's belief was discussed.
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Surprise!


Admittedly, it depends on which court of appeal district you're in.
 
Again, it might help in some ordinary negligence cases in most states, but its not foolproof. Virginia and Louisiana bar them outright. NY, CT, VT, HI several restrict their application as well. Anything that tries to absolve the protected party from exercising due care is generally unenforceable either. There are certain places and against certain people they are also regarded as bad public policy, most important for aviation, against common carriers.
 
flyingron said:
Again, it might help in some ordinary negligence cases in most states, but its not foolproof. Virginia and Louisiana bar them outright. NY, CT, VT, HI several restrict their application as well. Anything that tries to absolve the protected party from exercising due care is generally unenforceable either. There are certain places and against certain people they are also regarded as bad public policy, most important for aviation, against common carriers.
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Agree.

Not foolproof is a reality - very little in this world is foolproof.
 
Mikey52 said:
Not in all cases.


LA - Equine Activity Liability - § 2795.1. Limitation of liability of farm animal activity | Animal Legal & Historical Center

www.animallaw.info www.animallaw.info
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There are a bunch of state laws which limit liability for certain activities. All 50 states, for example, have some form of Recreational Use Statute (RUS), which provides for some degree of liability protection to landowners who allow the public use their land for recreational purposes. One of the big issues the Recreational Aviation Foundation deal with is to what degree these statutes protect the owners of private airports if they allow people to land there. In some states, the RUS has been amended to specifically cover aeronautical activities, in some not. They have a good writeup here.
 
IMO, and probably depends on state laws, the Liability Waiver can help some, but is not a catch all. A determined plaintiff and/or attorney can probably work around it or at least make it very unpleasant trying to defend it.

Once upon a time I worked for a Kit plane company that had a demonstrator involved in a fatal accident for both the company pilot and a customer.
While I was not involved in any of the following legal proceedings, The summary I heard was the liability wavier helped in this situation.

Brian
 
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