Let's Discuss Manned EVTOL's

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AceWannaBe

Filing Flight Plan
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AceWannaBe
Hi Everyone

Hope you are doing well. I'm new to these forums. I'm an aeronautical engineering student and the reason for me joining this forum is to get the pilot's perspective on various topics. Currently I'm conducting research on people's interest in manned EVTOL's. If you could respond to the following questions I would appreciate it.

1) What is your favorite EVTOL in terms of aesthetic design and why?

2) What application of EVTOL's are you most excited for and why?

3) Would you be interested in an EVTOL racing series and why?

4) How much would you be willing to pay for an EVTOL for recreational use?

Thanks Everyone!
 
1. I think they’re all hideous. It’s like CS Lewis said of insects and French locomotives — the works are on the outside.

2. None. They’re like HVAC units; potentially useful, but not exciting.

3. Not at all. Ugly devices making ugly sounds while going fast is of no interest to me. In fact, the drone racing I’ve seen is creepy. See #1. They’re like insects.

4. Not a dime. And the potential for having such things close to my house is reason enough to support an HOA.

Before you jump to an erroneous conclusion, I’m younger than the average participant here.
 
Are there any manned electric rotorcraft flying today?

Are there electric VTOLs that aren’t rotorcraft?

We all know helicopters are the aviation god’s way of trying to actively kill you at all times; could eVTOLs take over that role?
 
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1) Joby. Attractive and decent performance…now only if they could actually fly it for a day without it crashing.

2) Urban transport / EMS.

3) No. Accident waiting to happen.

4) A Black Fly should cost no more than $50K. But since that ain’t never gonna happen, I’m not paying 6 figures for a toy that flys.
 
Maybe someone can educate me, but wouldn't it make more sense to just throw a battery pack in a small helicopter, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel? VTOL flight has been figured out for quite a while by helicopters.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Glorified drones look fun but have catastrophic failure written all over them.
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One could do an EVTOL in a "conventional" helicopter configuration - it would be more efficient and give you better range and lifting capability.
Multicopters are fine for hobby size stuff because of the scale factor - mass goes down by the cube root of the size - but for manned stuff, well, just look at the success of the Moller Sky Car. Forty years, $100,000,000, 720 horsepower just to get it to hover because the configuration is so inefficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_M400_Skycar
 
AceWannaBe said:
Hi Everyone

Hope you are doing well. I'm new to these forums. I'm an aeronautical engineering student and the reason for me joining this forum is to get the pilot's perspective on various topics. Currently I'm conducting research on people's interest in manned EVTOL's. If you could respond to the following questions I would appreciate it.

1) What is your favorite EVTOL in terms of aesthetic design and why?

2) What application of EVTOL's are you most excited for and why?

3) Would you be interested in an EVTOL racing series and why?

4) How much would you be willing to pay for an EVTOL for recreational use?

Thanks Everyone!
Click to expand...
Forums are terrible places to gather this sort of information. Any forum tends to become an "echo chamber" for those participating. Likewise facebook groups, Reddit subgroups, and so forth. As a result, you'll get similar answers for most of the responses for a given community that is on-line.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Maybe someone can educate me, but wouldn't it make more sense to just throw a battery pack in a small helicopter, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel? VTOL flight has been figured out for quite a while by helicopters.
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Most EVTOLs are helicopters, just multi-rotor designs. A few are powered-lift vehicles. They're more complex, but I prefer those designs.
 
1. None
2. Suicide
3. Only if the participants were armed.
4. $0.00, but if I was gifted one, I'd sell it and buy a real aircraft.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Forums are terrible places to gather this sort of information. Any forum tends to become an "echo chamber" for those participating. Likewise facebook groups, Reddit subgroups, and so forth. As a result, you'll get similar answers for most of the responses for a given community that is on-line.
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Indeed. Twins are safer than singles. Parachutes are for non-pilots. High wings are better than low wings. G100UL is manna from Heaven. ADS-B is just a route for user fees. . . .

Everyone on PoA always agrees on everything.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Maybe someone can educate me, but wouldn't it make more sense to just throw a battery pack in a small helicopter, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel? VTOL flight has been figured out for quite a while by helicopters.
Click to expand...
The difference between rotorcraft and powered-lift aircraft is how all lift is produced. With powered lift there is a stationary airfoil used for lift in horizontal flight whereas rotorcraft all lift is produced by rotating airfoils. There are specific definitions for certification purposes. However there are electric and hybrid rotorcraft out there flying.
Lindberg said:
Most EVTOLs are helicopters,
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FYI: its actually the reverse. Up to this year eVTOLs were using Part 23 rules and not Part 27 rules for certification. However, there been a shift back to Part 21 "special aircraft" rules probably because a new Part will be issued to handle powered lift.
 
I know we're technologically at the point with eVTOLs akin to when the automobile could only be operated on city streets preceded by a guy carrying a lantern. But as neat as eVTOLs look (and some are quite ugly imho) there really needs to be more flyable examples before I can make much of an assessment of interest.

This group in particular, General Aviation pilots, already have the skill, ability, and access to fly airplanes (and in some cases helicopters) that accomplish much of the ability that EVTOLs are projected to do. These machines are <50 mile range aircraft, meaning very specific short distance travel. Perhaps if I was a titan of industry and needed a way to get from my office to the airport quickly I might bore interested.

the premise of air racing in anything is flawed, IMO.

I'm going to pass on a recreational vtol for now. Make an electric version of the ICON amphib and I might be interested.
 
Close....you must read a lot. ;)

Powered lift is just that. A vehicle that requires power for lift and may not have any stationary lifting surfaces.

WRT to certification....amendment 61 (a) vs (b) are used until the rules are adjusted for these new vehicles. There will be many "special conditions" and issue papers that address these gaps.
Bell206 said:
The difference between rotorcraft and powered-lift aircraft is how all lift is produced. With powered lift there is a stationary airfoil used for lift in horizontal flight whereas rotorcraft all lift is produced by rotating airfoils. There are specific definitions for certification purposes. However there are electric and hybrid rotorcraft out there flying.
FYI: its actually the reverse. Up to this year eVTOLs were using Part 23 rules and not Part 27 rules for certification. However, there been a shift back to Part 21 "special aircraft" rules probably because a new Part will be issued to handle powered lift.
Click to expand...
 
The issue EVOTLS are going to face is the same as the rest of the aviation industry...cost. The idea of flying around in a manned drone sounds fun and dandy, until the actual cost to operate is tabulated. Cost is going to limit your market, which further drives up the price. It will be hard to amortize the acquisition and operational expense of these EVOTLs flying 1-9 passengers at a time.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Maybe someone can educate me, but wouldn't it make more sense to just throw a battery pack in a small helicopter, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel? VTOL flight has been figured out for quite a while by helicopters.
Click to expand...

I believe there is a version of the Mosquito helicopter under development that is electrically powered. But yes, that would make more sense to me as well.

Cap'n Jack said:
Forums are terrible places to gather this sort of information. Any forum tends to become an "echo chamber" for those participating. Likewise facebook groups, Reddit subgroups, and so forth. As a result, you'll get similar answers for most of the responses for a given community that is on-line.
Click to expand...

Yes, and no. There is a wealth of information here, and the input from people that fly helicopters for a living (does anyone here fly them for fun?) is valuable.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One could do an EVTOL in a "conventional" helicopter configuration - it would be more efficient and give you better range and lifting capability.
Multicopters are fine for hobby size stuff because of the scale factor - mass goes down by the cube root of the size - but for manned stuff, well, just look at the success of the Moller Sky Car. Forty years, $100,000,000, 720 horsepower just to get it to hover because the configuration is so inefficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_M400_Skycar
Click to expand...

I'm not against the idea of a multicopter EVTOL, but the failure modes haven't been worked out. If you geared four or more rotor sets together, and powered them by two or more redundant electric motors, you could achieve some good reliability. And you would have to offset the lack of ability to autorotate with increased reliability. Of course the weight penalty would be huge. In my mind, a dual rotor 'conventional' helicopter, with either coaxial rotors like a Kamov, or offset mesh rotors like a Kaman (these guys cousins?) would meet the form factor better and could probably be engineered to 'anybody can fly it' standards. Still, by the time you put the cost together, you're back to an R22.

With all that, batteries are still going to be the limiting factor. EV car batteries have improved, but a fundamentally different technology will be required to produce batteries with a sufficient energy density to make them range and load competitive with internal combustion engines.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Glorified drones look fun but have catastrophic failure written all over them. Lose one motor and you are tumbling to your death.
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Here's a video of one the glorified drones shutting one motor down in flight and landing without incident.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MALqqTg3U9w

Personally think these devices are doomed without a major development in battery technology, but have no objection otherwise.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Bell206 said:
The difference between rotorcraft and powered-lift aircraft is how all lift is produced. With powered lift there is a stationary airfoil used for lift in horizontal flight whereas rotorcraft all lift is produced by rotating airfoils. There are specific definitions for certification purposes. However there are electric and hybrid rotorcraft out there flying.

FYI: its actually the reverse. Up to this year eVTOLs were using Part 23 rules and not Part 27 rules for certification. However, there been a shift back to Part 21 "special aircraft" rules probably because a new Part will be issued to handle powered lift.
Click to expand...
That may be, but I'm not really concerned with how they're certified; many are not. But 1.1 defines the different aircraft types.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Close....you must read a lot. ;)
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I do but only because I'm involved with a couple projects and they send me a lot of stuff to read/review.;)

Regardless the eVTOLs were lumped under powered-lift until this year which is defined below 1st link. The problem with the definition it was never linked to aircraft certification only pilot certification. Now, at least in the US, they've been moved back out of Part 23 even though a number of the eVTOLs have begun the certification. While I can't share my references the 2nd link that covers the high points.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1/section-1.1#p-1.1(Powered-lift)
https://vtol.org/news/commentary-faa-changes-course-on-evtol-certification
 
keep an eye out in the registry....there are more TCs coming.
Bell206 said:
I do but only because I'm involved with a couple projects and they send me a lot of stuff to read/review.;)

Regardless the eVTOLs were lumped under powered-lift until this year which is defined below 1st link. The problem with the definition it was never linked to aircraft certification only pilot certification. Now, at least in the US, they've been moved back out of Part 23 even though a number of the eVTOLs have begun the certification. While I can't share my references the 2nd link that covers the high points.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1/section-1.1#p-1.1(Powered-lift)
https://vtol.org/news/commentary-faa-changes-course-on-evtol-certification
Click to expand...
 
IK04 said:
The only electric helicopter I know of was the Sikorsky Firefly:
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There's also the Tier 1 electric R44. Plus Airbus has been flying hybrid tests and just unveiled its standalone hybrid test model.

upload_2022-12-13_12-0-38.png

disruptivelab.jpg
 
fasteddie said:
If someone can give me a list of manned EVTOLs, I'll answer this question.

I've seen several hundred different renderings of manned EVTOLs, but precious few photos of real, live, working, flying EVTOLs.
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This.

To invent an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. But to fly is everything.
- Otto Lilienthal

Ron Wanttaja
 
1) Are there flying, commercially available, manned EVTOLs now?
2) Sucking money from investors seems to be about the only viable use case right now.
3) Not in the slightest.
4) Not a penny. Any such product available in the foreseeable future would have enough restrictions as to be useless for recreation.
 
fasteddie said:
If someone can give me a list of manned EVTOLs, I'll answer this question.
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I haven't seen a singular list that just shows current flying manned eVTOLs. But the go to database for all/most designs by category is this one which is updated regularly: https://evtol.news/aircraft
You can scroll through it which shows actual built prototypes when applicable and pics of them flying. Usually if a design is flying there will be other vids/pics on the internet showing more action.

DaleB said:
1) Are there flying, commercially available, manned EVTOLs now?
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The 1st ones will more than likely fly in China and probably by years end. Supposedly they are already flying "public" flights. Elsewhere I've seen target cert dates of 2025 provided the FAA and EASA make up their mind on how to finish the aircraft certification since it changed mid-stream this year.
 
Bell206 said:
The 1st ones will more than likely fly in China and probably by years end. Supposedly they are already flying "public" flights.
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I remember hearing nearly those exact words at Oshkosh where there was a Chinese company or two with supposedly flying copies of their one and two passenger automated flying widgets. “By the end of the year”.

I don’t remember what year that was, but it was at least three years ago. To be fair, no one ever said specifically “by the end of this year”.
 
I don't think there are any current viable manned evtol's available. I'm not sure what the advantage of having them manned would be, except to transport people.

As far as unmanned goes:
1 - I don't have a favorite design
2 - I think Ukraine is making great use of them in helping to rid themselves of Russians. Seriously, not kidding.
3 - Racing robots? It sounds boring and makes no sense.
4 - 0. Why would there be a recreational use for them?

Next steps? unmanned evtols seem like a great way to transport things in hostile environments, where cost and practicality aren't much of an issue. Or in other words, using them to move supplies in a combat zone, where you haven't secured lines of supply on roads. They might not ever be cost effective for even that, though, compared to autonomous wheeled vehicles under development.

There could be a thrill-ride market here, though. Along the lines of go-cart racing, but 3D, if someone without any pilot training could somehow rent one to safely fly around a closed course. The "pilot" would instruct the device where they want to go, and the evtol would fly there, within the constraints of a set area, and limited rates of speed, acceleration, and attitude.
 
EHang claims 30K trial or demo flights and says they are flying in several countries. Could be marketing or wishful thinking but it seems that if this company isn't in a class by itself, it won't take long to call the roll ...

 
TCABM said:
Are there any manned electric rotorcraft flying today?

Are there electric VTOLs that aren’t rotorcraft?

We all know helicopters are the aviation god’s way of trying to actively kill you at all times; could eVTOLs take over that role?
Click to expand...

I know a lot of eVTOL's are just concept art, but even amongst these you don't have any favorite's in terms of aesthetics alone?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One could do an EVTOL in a "conventional" helicopter configuration - it would be more efficient and give you better range and lifting capability.
Multicopters are fine for hobby size stuff because of the scale factor - mass goes down by the cube root of the size - but for manned stuff, well, just look at the success of the Moller Sky Car. Forty years, $100,000,000, 720 horsepower just to get it to hover because the configuration is so inefficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_M400_Skycar
Click to expand...

eVTOL's like the Jetson One are simpler to fly compared to helicopters, so even if efficiency is lower it also lowers the barrier to entry for most people who want a flying vehicle.
 
AceWannaBe said:
I know a lot of eVTOL's are just concept art, but even amongst these you don't have any favorite's in terms of aesthetics alone?
Click to expand...
I think a Chevrolet Corvette has the best aesthetics. And they fly just as well as all of those eVTOLs.

Please re-read my Otto Lilienthal quote above. If it's an "aircraft" but doesn't fly, it doesn't matter how pretty it is. You're posting to the PILOTS of America forum page, not the Aesthetes of America forum.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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