Let me get ahead of myself: Buy into a twin? Story time.

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ktrubin

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justcuz
Long time lurker, first time poster. Let me set this up---and apologies in advance for the length.

The reason I've been lurking for many years is I've always wanted to get my PPL. We are very fiscally conservative with two growing kids and a strong desire to retire as early as possible and travel the heck out of the world. We're a young family, I'm not yet 40, my wife a little younger, and we have a 13 and 10 year old. I barely crack 6 figs, my wife is a teacher, and we save a ton of money every year (almost all of her salary and roughly 40% of mine). I have no trust funds, no planned inheritances (I hope my parents live forever), and no plans to suddenly get rich buying Bitcoin. I'm just doing this the old fashioned way through hard a$$ work and discipline.

I started ground school a few months ago and had my first flight lesson earlier this week, just to see where it goes. I'd love to continue on, but one things that's becoming painfully apparent is the future costs associated with actually using a PPL. I have access to a 152 as a rental, but that's it. Given the family, that ain't gonna do it...so I start shopping to see what it might cost someday. If we want something that gets all four of us somewhere fun with some small bags, we're looking at things like Cherokee 180s at a minimum, a 235 if we're lucky, and a few other 4 place planes with 1k useful loads. This puts me at a min. of $50k if I hit the jackpot on a plane. We have that kinda cash and that's not what's killing me. Add in annuals, fuel, hangar, etc., pretty easy to set aside $20k a year to fund it. That's killing me and I start sweating and thinking "no way this makes sense".

So I start shopping for partners. Run across a friend of a friend who's a pilot and we start chattin. We have similar missions - kids, want get out of dodge to go mountain biking, skiing, etc. He proceeds to tell me he's pretty close to closing in on a twin (Seneca).

I, of course, will try to talk him into something like a Cherokee, but he has legitimate reasons for wanting a twin. I'm a long ways off from those reasons, but they include FIKI equipped (we're in a great lakes snow belt), redundancy, speed, useful load, etc.

Long story aside----will splitting the annual costs of a twin ever be reasonable when compared with sole ownership of a single engine? Seems like, if indeed the costs do somewhat intersect, that partially owning a twin isn't a bad way to go because of "how capable of a plane" it is divided by two.....

But then again, I've had one lesson. So let's not get ahead of ourselves :).
 
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ktrubin said:
.....But then again, I've had one lesson. So let's not get ahead of ourselves :).
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this.


but also, maybe you can express your desire to partner up a year (or several years) down the road if/when you get to the point where u can actually fly a twin. but of course by that time he won't want a partner.
 
You've got to figure you probably have a year of training at best before you'll be able to fly the thing. If you're working full time, it'll take 4 months at a minimum to get to private, about the same for instrument, and then multi would be quicker. You'll spend $30k on training all while paying bills for a plane you can't fly.

Once you get your ME, insurance will be astronomical if you can even get it.

The seneca is pretty reasonable as twins go, and I would think your proposed budget would cover it, although fiki adds a fair bit of expense.

I'm going to have spent close to 30k on my first year of solo ownership of my Lance. 10 of that is catching up on previously deferred maintenance, but that's not uncommon when you buy an airplane.

With gas prices spiraling, think carefully if you want a twin at all. They aren't that much faster than a single. There are fiki singles as well. Without knowing where you live, I will add that in central Illinois, I've only scrubbed one flight due to icing threat. I went the next day. Winter flying is quite doable if you are careful and have an exit strategy.

I'm going to assume if you are as thrifty as you say you have a retirement plan in place. Airplanes always cost more than you thought.

With kids 10 & 13, unless you're all relatively small, a cherokee will be real tight. You mentioned useful load so I will assume you understand that. It's hard with prices being what they are. 50k doesn't buy much these days. The comanche is still undervalued imo, and is bigger than a cherokee. Bear in mind that the purchase price is just the tip of the iceberg. If you spend 100k on a plane, in 5 years you'll have spent that on it again.

I never recommend buying a plane until your training is done. Ownership is like a whole 'nother rating. It's hard to hold off when you're excited. I browsed TAP daily from about 3 months before I started training until I bought my plane. I forced myself to wait until I had my instrument rating before I got serious about buying. Clubs are a great option in the meantime.
 
Jim K said:
You've got to figure you probably have a year of training at best before you'll be able to fly the thing. If you're working full time, it'll take 4 months at a minimum to get to private, about the same for instrument, and then multi would be quicker. You'll spend $30k on training all while paying bills for a plane you can't fly.

Once you get your ME, insurance will be astronomical if you can even get it.

The seneca is pretty reasonable as twins go, and I would think your proposed budget would cover it, although fiki adds a fair bit of expense.

I'm going to have spent close to 30k on my first year of solo ownership of my Lance. 10 of that is catching up on previously deferred maintenance, but that's not uncommon when you buy an airplane.

With gas prices spiraling, think carefully if you want a twin at all. They aren't that much faster than a single. There are fiki singles as well. Without knowing where you live, I will add that in central Illinois, I've only scrubbed one flight due to icing threat. I went the next day. Winter flying is quite doable if you are careful and have an exit strategy.

I'm going to assume if you are as thrifty as you say you have a retirement plan in place. Airplanes always cost more than you thought.

With kids 10 & 13, unless you're all relatively small, a cherokee will be real tight. You mentioned useful load so I will assume you understand that. It's hard with prices being what they are. 50k doesn't buy much these days. The comanche is still undervalued imo, and is bigger than a cherokee. Bear in mind that the purchase price is just the tip of the iceberg. If you spend 100k on a plane, in 5 years you'll have spent that on it again.

I never recommend buying a plane until your training is done. Ownership is like a whole 'nother rating. It's hard to hold off when you're excited. I browsed TAP daily from about 3 months before I started training until I bought my plane. I forced myself to wait until I had my instrument rating before I got serious about buying. Clubs are a great option in the meantime.
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Thanks for the solid advice! To clarify, I really wasn't planning on buying anything until training was done and this is all in the spirit of "getting ahead of myself". Certainly do appreciate the views, all of which are really good to hear.
 
Have you checked on getting a medical certificate yet?

Might want to do that before getting to far along.
 
There is nothing magic about a twin with fiki vs a single with fiki. Look to where modern GA planes are going for insight into what's working and what is not. There are clear trends:
  • automated propeller pitch control
  • fixed gear
  • parachutes
  • .... and single engines
There is no shortage of battlefields about singles vs twins but keep this in mind: in addition to double the fuel and maintenance - the failure scenario is what scares me the most.

Loss of power (engine) on takeoff is a very common scenario. In a twin the asymmetry of thrust/drag will spin the plane if you don't act fast. So if you're going twin you're also committing to some very specific and very regular training around that scenario.

I think one of the reasons so many older twins seem cheap now is because of the higher maintenance, fuel and insurance costs.
 
ktrubin said:
Long time lurker, first time poster. Let me set this up---and apologies in advance for the length.

The reason I've been lurking for many years is I've always wanted to get my PPL. We are very fiscally conservative with two growing kids and a strong desire to retire as early as possible and travel the heck out of the world. We're a young family, I'm not yet 40, my wife a little younger, and we have a 13 and 10 year old. I barely crack 6 figs, my wife is a teacher, and we save a ton of money every year (almost all of her salary and roughly 40% of mine). I have no trust funds, no planned inheritances (I hope my parents live forever), and no plans to suddenly get rich buying Bitcoin. I'm just doing this the old fashioned way through hard a$$ work and discipline.

I started ground school a few months ago and had my first flight lesson earlier this week, just to see where it goes. I'd love to continue on, but one things that's becoming painfully apparent is the future costs associated with actually using a PPL. I have access to a 152 as a rental, but that's it. Given the family, that ain't gonna do it...so I start shopping to see what it might cost someday. If we want something that gets all four of us somewhere fun with some small bags, we're looking at things like Cherokee 180s at a minimum, a 235 if we're lucky, and a few other 4 place planes with 1k useful loads. This puts me at a min. of $50k if I hit the jackpot on a plane. We have that kinda cash and that's not what's killing me. Add in annuals, fuel, hangar, etc., pretty easy to set aside $20k a year to fund it. That's killing me and I start sweating and thinking "no way this makes sense".

So I start shopping for partners. Run across a friend of a friend who's a pilot and we start chattin. We have similar missions - kids, want get out of dodge to go mountain biking, skiing, etc. He proceeds to tell me he's pretty close to closing in on a twin (Seneca).

I, of course, will try to talk him into something like a Cherokee, but he has legitimate reasons for wanting a twin. I'm a long ways off from those reasons, but they include FIKI equipped (we're in a great lakes snow belt), redundancy, speed, useful load, etc.

Long story aside----will splitting the annual costs of a twin ever be reasonable when compared with sole ownership of a single engine? Seems like, if indeed the costs do somewhat intersect, that partially owning a twin isn't a bad way to go because of "how capable of a plane" it is divided by two.....

But then again, I've had one lesson. So let's not get ahead of ourselves :).
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Assume the plane will become un airworthy sometime soon and must be scrapped. Also assume your partner is going to bail and you will not find a new partner. Now decide how this will affect you, your finances and your family. If the affects are not acceptable, think twice before doing it. Are you a gambling man?
 
The operating costs of a twin with a partner will be almost as much as a single by yourself.

Either way, unfortunately you won't be in a position to fly the family in it for at least a year, easily more (life gets in the way).

I'd strongly recommend enjoying the training and flying for flying's sake and think about options for the family later.
 
FWIW ... it can be quite difficult to find the right person when doing aircraft partnerships. I was a partner in one aircraft years ago and it turned out well but I don't believe I'd do it again.

I would suggest that you focus on learning to fly and then what aircraft fits your mission and budget.
 
I sold my Cherokee 6 to buy a 310 because I needed the speed for travelling. I also just bought an AA5 to fly around and rent out.

For 50nm flight it will take me 36 minutes round trip in the 310 costing me $150 in fixed costs and fuel. In the AA5 it will take me 48 minutes round trip and will cost me $67.00. This does not factor in insurance for either aircraft.

Focus on flying first and then look into how much you can work with financially.
 
Do you plan on crossing those Great Lakes? That's about the big advantage to the twin.

It's hard to get insurance in even an Arrow as a newly minted PPL right now, probably impossible in a twin. Even if you could get insured in that Seneca, it would probably cost you far more than the increased mx/annual costs of the twin.
 
You sound like a very rational, fiscally conservative individual. I sincerely appreciate and applaud that.

But.... because of that trait, I don't think GA flying is the right thing for you. Nothing about it makes financial sense.

In many respects I admire you. I wish I was more financially responsible myself. But the passion to fly has overcome in me the desire to be thrifty with my money.

Good luck in your quest. I do think that you should continue with your PPL training and get that certificate. By the time you finish, you will realize whether this is for you. And what a great accomplishment also!
 
Zeldman said:
Have you checked on getting a medical certificate yet?

Might want to do that before getting to far along.
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Definitely get the medical completed first. Didn't think I would have a problem and now 5 months later still waiting on a decision.
 
So just keep in mind, the cost of flying the plane you own, or renting a plane, or belonging to a club or partnership and paying for that plane, are all *roughly* similar. Nobody is making a fortune renting aircraft. Of all of those choices, buying or buying into a partnership are the most risky AND those have an expense associated with them for as long as you own them. An airplane costs money just sitting there. Renting is the most fiscally sound option, in my view, especially if you're looking at a larger aircraft.

Another thing to consider is that there's flying for fun, and there's flying to get from point A to point B. The fun part doesn't require as much money. You could buy a small 2 seat airplane, maybe a champ, for less than a 4 seater, and have just as much fun. You won't be flying across the country as a family in it, but that doesn't mean you can't fly around for fun.

I think it's great to fly, just take it one step at a time.
 
A bunch of thoughts spring to mind in reading your post and the responses, I’ll just list a few:

- Yeah, you’re getting ahead of yourself.

- Yes, flying is expensive. But it’s not or it doesn’t have to be catastrophic. So take those posts with a grain of salt.

- But also be aware that it’s expensive. I don’t fully agree with @Stephen Shore ’s post that flying might not be for you, but he’s also kinda onto something. Strict financial conservative, limited budgets, and flying don’t mix well, and sets you up for frustration. I could see you throwing your hands up right before things get better (in terms of the cost to operate and maintain a plane).

- You won’t pay $100,000 for a plane and then have to put another $100,000 into it 5 years later. Those of us with this affliction might choose to, but there’s literally not a scenario where you would be required to do so (insurance would total it first).

- FIND A MENTOR, someone who has been through this before and walk you through the training stuff and who has owned a few planes and can help you walk through the process. Heck,it could be me or someone on this forum - just find someone who you can pester with questions and get their opinion about your decisions. If you can find someone who is willing to dedicate Even a little bit of time and energy to you, they will help you avoid some serious land mines.

- If I had to do it again, I would seriously seriously consider going on a two week personal vacation and knocking the PPL out. Way more efficient use of time than trying to piecemeal with a family. Trust me on this.

- The market for aircraft will not stay this hot forever. But you’re not ready to buy. So don’t stress.

- People who love airplanes buy and sell airplanes all the time. Your Seneca partner friend will probably be ready to move back down to a single (LOL) right about the are ready to buy. Partnership sounds like a really good idea for you generally but not in a Seneca. And probably not now.

- Flying clubs. I’ve never been a part of one, but there’s one that’s so good around here that I consider becoming a member even though I own my own plane. Really would consider this.

I will think of more I’m sure...
 
So you know you enjoy flying. But GA planes aren't for everyone. Have the kids or wife ever been in a small plane? Get your ppl. Then take the wife and kids up and see how they like it.

If you can find a 180 for the right price I'd buy it and learn in it. I hate renting. And had a private cfi. I like having the asset to use whenever I want and like knowing what condition it was left in. It fits the training mission now and can be a stepping stone to that next big purchase. Id suggest a fixed pa32. Have no desire to go FIKI. And I'm right on Lake Michigan.
 
Hengelo said:
There is nothing magic about a twin with fiki vs a single with fiki. Look to where modern GA planes are going for insight into what's working and what is not. There are clear trends:
  • automated propeller pitch control
  • fixed gear
  • parachutes
  • .... and single engines
There is no shortage of battlefields about singles vs twins but keep this in mind: in addition to double the fuel and maintenance - the failure scenario is what scares me the most.

Loss of power (engine) on takeoff is a very common scenario. In a twin the asymmetry of thrust/drag will spin the plane if you don't act fast. So if you're going twin you're also committing to some very specific and very regular training around that scenario.

I think one of the reasons so many older twins seem cheap now is because of the higher maintenance, fuel and insurance costs.
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Loss of engine on takeoff is not “very common” in a twin.
 
AA5Bman said:
- You won’t pay $100,000 for a plane and then have to put another $100,000 into it 5 years later. Those of us with this affliction might choose to, but there’s literally not a scenario where you would be required to do so (insurance would total it first).
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I'm not saying expect a 100k bill every 5 years, Im saying if you buy a 100k airplane you'll spend 20k/ year operating & maintaining it. The purchase price is small potatoes compared to the cost to own & operate, even at today's prices.
 
Thanks all. Stopping by to say I'm reading all posts and appreciate the words!
 
In my mind, the only way to justify airplane ownership is in fun points. It's almost impossible to justify it financially unless you're going all in full time in the rental or flying business. I'm hoping to be in the market in the next year or 2 after getting our house and hangar built and it's pretty much, can we afford it, then we'll do it. The only justification is that it's fun and a novelty for our family. It will also make the trip from Cinci to NW WI a lot more bearable...

Oh yeah. I'm 36 and pretty much plan to never retire or stop flying as was said before. I enjoy my job immensly, I don't make 6 figures nor does my wife, we are crappy at saving right now, but trying to get better. So I guess I maybe prove what was said earlier; real pilots aren't the most fiscally conservative people haha

Edit: Oh yeah, statistically, people who retire early die early. Have the fun while still young enough to have it, I've seen too many older folks that scrimped and saved only to pass it on to their heirs instead of getting to enjoy what they worked so hard for. :)
 
YOLO.

Okay now that we got that out of the way... There's a range of how you maintain an aircraft. They're all from an aging fleet so because of that more and more parts are being had to replaced that have traditionally not needed to be touched, fatigue, weather and bad owners all take a toll on these birds.

I've seen some planes that I couldn't believe are airworthy fly for a decade and never have a problem, and I've seen planes that the owner was head over heels in love with and spared no expense end up in the canopy from failure. That being said, obviously the former is significantly cheaper to operate than the latter, the cost of an airplane is generally more dependent on the owner than it is on the aircraft itself. I put my plane into situations in the backcountry where I really need to rely on it to get me in and out safely - and I put loved ones in the plane too so I spare absolutely no expense on my airplane. I've easily put over $100k in mx into it and will likely do another $50k over the next two years. It's a Cessna 180. Nothing crazy, nothing rare or absurd or full of strange complex systems. Am I an outlier? Probably, but what lengths would you go to to try to guarantee (as much as anyone can) that your plane is in tip-top shape?

And then I recently met another A&P that owns a 180 and he blew me out of the water with the maintenance he demands of his airplane. He's easily put 400k into his airplane to know everything is as perfect as it can be down to every single fastener... so no I of course am not at that level of maintenance. Then I know people with raggedy old ones that seem to fly fine, "It's worked for the last 60 years, why change it?".

I don't generally have "surprise" plane costs. I'm very involved in the maintenance of my plane and head things off before they become surprises.

The point I'm trying to make is - "it depends" I physically could not afford to own a twin to the same level I own my Skywagon to, but plenty of people that make less household income than I make, own twins. I love plane ownership because it gives me that freedom to choose, but for me it's not cheap. Unlike you I decided that my passion to own a plane was more important than buying a house, or nice cars or really anything else so that's what I've done. Robin @GRG55 , a member here may he RIP, owned TWO Piper Aztecs. One was a parts plane to keep his other one going.

I would recommend renting for a while, if I had to guess you must have access to more rental planes, even if its a bit of a drive and find out what your "mission" for the airplane really is going to be. It's something you likely wont know from the start and will depend on your personal limits for what you can do safely as well as what your family wants out of an aircraft. Even the little things from high wing to low wing need to be figured out :).
 
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One kid gets airsick
One kid has soccer
Wife can’t leave her horse for a day because whatever
Dog is weird after a kennel stay
Etc

You really should size your future plane after trying to schedule a family trip after your ppl.

Also I recently heard an engine out story (in a turbine twin over the Atlantic) where it was no big deal because both pilots practiced it 10 times a year. I’d have to sell the house just to cover his fuel for training lol
 
I'm lucky to have plenty flight schools and flying clubs where I live (Tampa, FL). I'm in a club with one plane and it has been super affordable and well maintained. For the price of owning and maintaining a plane by myself, I could probably join all the clubs around me and have access to a couple dozen planes from two seat tail draggers to multiengine. Fly a bunch of different planes and figure out which one you like best. Whenever it becomes repetitive or stale, pick up a new endorsement or rating.
 
Another note, I'm fiscally reckless compared to you, but we still save for retirement, paid off motorcycles and vehicles etc. with under 80k household. I fly 40-80 hours a year and never spent more than $6000 in a single year on flying if you don't count the year I bought into the club. The plane I fly (AA5) has four seats and almost 1000 lbs useful. With your resources, network during training, you can find a similar setup that is rewarding and affordable.
 
cruiserandmax said:
The loss of engine on takeoff in any type of aircraft is not "very common". However the statistical outcome for the loss of an engine on a twin on takeoff is much worse compared to loss of power on a single during takeoff. Random link to that point:

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/why-twins-crash/#:~:text=Typically, in crashes where an,not too difficult to understand.
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I'm not going to dispute that twins require more training and critical actions in the event of an engine failure. Absolutely. Multiengine training has been my bread-and-butter as a CFI for a couple years now.

But, statistics are statistics, and they're all easily manipulated towards conclusions. That article says:

Typically, in crashes where an engine failed in a twin, the accident was fatal between 20 and 50 percent of the time; in singles, the fatal rate for power plant failure is lower, on the order of 10 percent,
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Well, sure. But that doesn't meant that 20-50% of engine failures in a twin were fatal. It means that when there was a crash after an engine failure, 20-50% of the time it was fatal.

An engine failure in a single almost always results in an off-airport landing. Conversely, an engine failure in a twin almost always results in a fairly normal landing on an appropriate runway. And many of these are likely never reported anyway.

So, sure, if a twin lands off-airport or screws something else up, then yes the chances are much higher that it will be fatal. Higher speeds, more energy to dissipate, tendency to roll over, etc. But the chances of actually having that off-airport landing are very much reduced.
 
Jim K said:
I'm not saying expect a 100k bill every 5 years, Im saying if you buy a 100k airplane you'll spend 20k/ year operating & maintaining it. The purchase price is small potatoes compared to the cost to own & operate, even at today's prices.
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Okay, that’s probably about true when you factor in everything. I haven’t added up my expenses for our Cessna singles, but when I ballpark it based on 100 hours a year, it comes out to be about $20k.

That seems like a big bill, yes, but I it comes with an equivalent amount of fun and self-satisfaction, and it tends to supplant other things I might’ve spent money on anyway. Oh, and when it comes in a $100 gas bill here and a $150 oil change there, it never feels as painful as writing a $20k check.

To the OP, there’s a saying that goes something like:

“Over the course of my life I have spent ungodly sums on aviation, and the rest, was purely wasted”.
 
AA5Bman said:
Okay, that’s probably about true when you factor in everything. I haven’t added up my expenses for our Cessna singles, but when I ballpark it based on 100 hours a year, it comes out to be about $20k.

That seems like a big bill, yes, but I it comes with an equivalent amount of fun and self-satisfaction, and it tends to supplant other things I might’ve spent money on anyway. Oh, and when it comes in a $100 gas bill here and a $150 oil change there, it never feels as painful as writing a $20k check.

To the OP, there’s a saying that goes something like:

“Over the course of my life I have spent ungodly sums on aviation, and the rest, was purely wasted”.
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Couldn't agree more. If you add up everything it costs to own and operate an automobile, it's pretty shocking, but nobody does that. I probably spend close to 10k a year on our family van, and that doesn't account for the garage it lives in. The money spent on a plane is significant, but seems less crazy when you look at it in perspective. Most of my friends/peers buy a new pickup every couple years. I've driven the same '97 Chevy for 20 years; the depreciation that old truck has saved me has paid for my airplane several times over.

The airplane probably cuts the van's annual mileage in half. In my case, if we were to fly commercial, I'm buying 7 tickets. Even on Allegiant that gets expensive. If we drive we usually need 2 hotel rooms per night, and my time is worth something. I can make a case that my lance is the cheapest way to take my family on vacation. Of course, that's only if i ignore all the money I spend on keeping both the plane and myself in a state of readiness for those missions.

At least this is how i justify it to myself......
 
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Oh - one other big piece of advice: when it does come time to buy a plane, purposefully undershoot your budget. There is nothing worse than feeling like you can’t actually afford to fly the plane once you own it because you bought too much plane.

Nothing better than being able to shrug off a top-off even when gas is $6/gallon. Nothing worse than having to balance the checkbook to know if you can put gas in it. And where that line is, is totally dependent on the person.
 
cruiserandmax said:
The loss of engine on takeoff in any type of aircraft is not "very common". However the statistical outcome for the loss of an engine on a twin on takeoff is much worse compared to loss of power on a single during takeoff. Random link to that point:

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/why-twins-crash/#:~:text=Typically, in crashes where an,not too difficult to understand.
Click to expand...
He said it was a very common occurrence. I simply said it is not. Don’t make more out of it than that.
 
AA5Bman said:
Oh - one other big piece of advice: when it does come time to buy a plane, purposefully undershoot your budget. There is nothing worse than feeling like you can’t actually afford to fly the plane once you own it because you bought too much plane.

Nothing better than being able to shrug off a top-off even when gas is $6/gallon. Nothing worse than having to balance the checkbook to know if you can put gas in it. And where that line is, is totally dependent on the person.
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Agree with this!
It's a good feeling to shrug off a cylinder, too (from experience, plus I measure everything in AMUs).
While I hate spending that kind of money unexpectedly, it's nice to know you can if you have to...and at some point in this hobby, you WILL have to.
 
ktrubin said:
I barely crack 6 figs, my wife is a teacher, and we save a ton of money every year (almost all of her salary and roughly 40% of mine).
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that's awesome, good for you! Takes a ton of discipline to live like that


As far as buying into anything one lesson in.. I wouldn't recommend that. I love twins but I think you gotta nail flying first. You mentioned FIKI, but anything piston really shouldn't be playing in the ice to begin with

Cherokee 6 / Lance - would be great options

I've been tempted to buy, or buy into, a twin for 2 years now. But I've been scared off by the 2 fold increase in fuel, and more importantly, the apparently 3 fold increase in overall maintenance
 
Fun to think about, sure.

RIght not - no. Get your PPL, your Instrument, two years and some hours, and then you'll know what you really want.
 
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