Less Than Truthful With ATC

One practical matter, flying in the mountains, even on a clear day IFR, once you report the "airport in sight", you are cleared for the visual. Until you see the airport, you are going to be kept at the MEA which could be 12,000. 13,000 feet. Calculate that descent rate once you see it from 10 miles out... ;-) Yeah... I see it. If you cancel IFR, then you lose the very limited traffic separation, as well as any search and rescue, should you happen to do something stupid before coming to a complete stop. Wouldn't "see" an unfamiliar airport, but if you know it in on the other side of that river 20 miles ahead, or just to the left of that mountain, maybe if you squint just right?? In sight.
 
On the opposite side of things, I was flying at night shortly after getting my private and coming in from the north, I could not make out Lansing (MI). ATC kept asking if I had the runway in sight. With the runways being east/west and at a low altitude, all the ground lights just combined into one mass of lights with nothing distinctive, I kept saying runway not in sight. Finally I said all the lights looked the same, and was having trouble.

"Hold on, let me turn up the brightness." It was like Clark Griswold's house came to life.
"Got it now!"
"Report left downwind."
 
Is this like the whole "If you can see through it then its not a cloud" bit? Like if I can see the cloud behind the cloud then the first cloud isn't in fact a cloud.
 
EdFred said:
On the opposite side of things, I was flying at night shortly after getting my private and coming in from the north, I could not make out Lansing (MI). ATC kept asking if I had the runway in sight. With the runways being east/west and at a low altitude, all the ground lights just combined into one mass of lights with nothing distinctive, I kept saying runway not in sight. Finally I said all the lights looked the same, and was having trouble.

"Hold on, let me turn up the brightness." It was like Clark Griswold's house came to life.
"Got it now!"
"Report left downwind."
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I had a similar experience going into MKC, downtown Kansas City, at night. I saw literally nothing, because the airport was the big black hole. (I didn't know that at the time). Tower turned on the runway lights and it was like... Oh!! THERE'S the airport, that big shiny airport-looking thing right there.
 
Brad Z said:
There are some airports that you truly don’t see until you are in the pattern. My home base is one of them. It’s about a 1/2 from a water tower I can see from 30 miles away. If the controller asks if I have the airport in sight 10 miles away, am I lying, assuming they haven’t moved the airport in the last 24 hours? That said, I don’t fudge on airports I’m unfamiliar with. That said, with GPS, navigational assistance from ATC is probably less of a concern than getting on ctaf getting a mental picture of what’s going on. So even if i don’t have the airport in sight but I want to cancel flight following, I’ll simply reply with “N182V cancelling radar services requesting frequency change” and everyone is happy.

If I’m IFR, if I said “airport in sight” than I *probably* had the airport in sight…
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Similar many times for me. One of my airports is located between two lakes. You can see these two lakes from a long way away. Sometimes the airport can be difficult to find depending on the sun angle and such. At night, sometimes it can be hard to pick out of the surrounding city lights. But the lakes are always easy to find. So if it's otherwise clear weather, and I see the lakes, I can be pretty certain that the airport is still between them, unless there was a Mayor Daley-level destruction project going on during my flight. Is it okay to report the airport in sight when all you see is the two lakes? Maybe not technically correct, but I'm not going to fault anyone for it.

But you can probably cancel IFR and get the same benefit, which is what I've started doing more and more.*

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* Side note which is somewhat relevant here. I have a habit of wanting to keep IFR almost until the last minute, even if it's a clear day. I recently realized why this is. Back when I first got married, my wife was pretty nervous about me flying. So I'd let her know she could always see where I was on FlightAware. But that was back before ADS-B, when FlightAware didn't track VFR flights (or didn't track them reliably). So if you canceled IFR 30 miles from your destination and squawked VFR, you disappeared from FA. To prevent any potential anxiety for my new bride, I just got in the habit of basically waiting to cancel IFR until I was ready to go to CTAF. Instead, I would report the airport in sight and be cleared for the visual. This habit continued until just this past year, where I realized that the reason I was doing it is no longer relevant (First, FA uses ADS-B primarily now, and second, my wife is no longer so nervous. Hmmm.). So now instead of waiting, I just happily cancel IFR routinely.
 
ATC: “Say airspeed.”
Me: “250”
ASI: “290”

Before you pass judgement-in my defense-it was 14 DME arc to a localized bc and I was still a good 100 radials out.


N5414L Grumman AA5 ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man
 
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RussR said:
This habit continued until just this past year, where I realized that the reason I was doing it is no longer relevant (First, FA uses ADS-B primarily now, and second, my wife is no longer so nervous. Hmmm.). So now instead of waiting, I just happily cancel IFR routinely.
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I was waiting for the reason for the operating change to be "I got rid of my wife."
 
If you are too blatant, the controller might not give you a very enthusiastic "see ya" to let you know you're doing a good job. Just a deep sigh followed by instructions.
 
You guys are awful. There's that poor controller, happy to have to chance to talk to someone, hanging on your every word and you cut him loose with a simple phrase. That makes them really sad for sure. :tongue2:

By the way, when a controller says things like:
"Good job."
"Have a nice day."
"No problem."
"My pleasure."

They're not lying...at all. ;)

Have a nice day!
 
Timbeck2 said:
There's that poor controller, happy to have to chance to talk to someone
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Sure everyone sees the controller in the tower, enjoying the sunshine, sipping his coffee, and wearing some sweet shades. That is not the reality for most 'em though. Stuck in a dungeon for hours on end, void of light and other signs of human life. Suffering through temperatures kept just above freezing. Their only connection to other people is through a microphone and, an equally cold, headset. Those guys are the true heroes.

And that is my idea to bring back the True American Hero commercials.
 
Star Keeper said:
Is this like the whole "If you can see through it then its not a cloud" bit?
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If you can see through it, it's mist, IMO. However I wouldn't penetrate it unless the visibility inside of it met VFR minimums.

Like if I can see the cloud behind the cloud then the first cloud isn't in fact a cloud.
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That statement is a little ambiguous. Can you see the portion of the 2nd cloud that is directly behind the 1st cloud? If not, then I would consider the first cloud to be an actual cloud and not mere mist.
 
RussR said:
...* Side note which is somewhat relevant here. I have a habit of wanting to keep IFR almost until the last minute, even if it's a clear day. I recently realized why this is. Back when I first got married, my wife was pretty nervous about me flying. So I'd let her know she could always see where I was on FlightAware. But that was back before ADS-B, when FlightAware didn't track VFR flights (or didn't track them reliably). So if you canceled IFR 30 miles from your destination and squawked VFR, you disappeared from FA. To prevent any potential anxiety for my new bride, I just got in the habit of basically waiting to cancel IFR until I was ready to go to CTAF. Instead, I would report the airport in sight and be cleared for the visual. This habit continued until just this past year, where I realized that the reason I was doing it is no longer relevant (First, FA uses ADS-B primarily now, and second, my wife is no longer so nervous. Hmmm.). So now instead of waiting, I just happily cancel IFR routinely.
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One potential downside to cancelling IFR early is that it cancels search-and-rescue coverage.

As for VFR, my home field is hard to spot from across the bay, but if I can see enough visual landmarks in the vicinity, I will often tell Approach that I have the airport in sight if it's obvious that there is no weather that could prevent me from seeing the runway when I get closer.
 
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Rich Holt said:
Sure everyone sees the controller in the tower, enjoying the sunshine, sipping his coffee, and wearing some sweet shades. That is not the reality for most 'em though...
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You could include tower controllers in that last sentence. The only thing that is true is that they are "in the tower." ;)

Enjoying the sunshine? Towers are like being in a fishbowl with the sun beating down. If the A/C hiccups which they often do, you're screwed.
Coffee can be sipped in both facilities.
Can't wear sweet, polarized shades and if it wasn't for the sun we're enjoying so much, we wouldn't have to wear them at all.

But with 6 years experience in a dungeon with no windows, I get your point.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you can see through it, it's mist, IMO. However I wouldn't penetrate it unless the visibility inside of it met VFR minimums.



That statement is a little ambiguous. Can you see the portion of the 2nd cloud that is directly behind the 1st cloud? If not, then I would consider the first cloud to be an actual cloud and not mere mist.
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I apologize for my attempt at humor.
 
I've been tempted a few times to lie about airport in sight, but haven't done it, I don't see any reason. VFR, who cares? It's only an issue when you are flying into a controlled field, when you see the airport they cancel you. If they are antsy, I'll just cancel FF and move on.

IFR, they generally just want you out of their hair. But if I can't see the field and I'm not familiar... even if I am familiar I still wait until I have the field picked out.

This can cause a longer flight. I flew to Key West IFR last April. When I got near Tampa, there was a line of thunderstorms forming up that I couldn't top, the airplane I was in didn't have oxygen, ATC was real busy with all the airliners deviating, and told me to stand by. I was just about to declare and turn, when the controller asked me what I wanted, I told him immediate 90 degree turn, which solved my problem. He then cleared me direct to Key west, which meant about 75 or so miles over the Gulf. I asked if I could fly along the coast, he said he couldn't do that due to arrivals, plus there was more convection further south, so I took the clearance.

I got near Key West, the controller had me descend so I was at about 1,500 feet 10 miles out. He then told me to report airport in sight. I knew generally where it was, but couldn't see it. He told me there were two airliners in bound when I was at about 7 miles, I still couldn't see the airport, so I told him I didn't see it. So he gave me a vector, around the naval base, to about a 20 mile final. I got over land, reported the airport in site. He came back with some snark, and said "Yeah right, are you sure?" I responded, "Well, let me see, there's a huge runway a few miles from me on my right, but that's not it, that's the Naval station. Then there is a big runway further away on my right, that's it, yup I'm sure." He just gave me a kurt, "continue".

With GPS and the ability to load visual approaches, I suppose I could've just loaded it up, set my course to the faf and flown until I saw the airport, but why do that? Just be honest, if they don't like it, tough ****.
 
thito01 said:
I once reported the wrong field in sight. :(
When I turned toward it, the controller politely said (something to the effect) "caution, airport xxx at your 12oclock. airport yyy at your 3oclock."
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Was it Arlington vs Grand Prairie in the DFW Metroplex? I did that. Tower asked if I wanted to go there instead while laughing at me. I said, no your gas is cheaper. He said, good call and set me up for a downwind.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
That might be dangerous. His foreskin might pop out of his collar if the tie is not pulled up real tight.

I’m just joking. It’s actually adapted from a joke about delta pilots and their ties.
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Or lawyers. Or salesmen. Or... you get the picture.
 
DaleB said:
Or lawyers. Or salesmen. Or... you get the picture.
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Why I do not wear tire.
1. They are uncomfortable.
2. These people wear them:
Insurance salesmen
Car salesmen
Bankers
Lawyers
Politicians
Bureaucrats
Preachers
And other assorted criminals.
 
I was flying a C-425 one time and a controller kept calling me out to other traffic as a king air....

I don't know what I did for him to insult me like that....:lol::lol:
 
Rich Holt said:
Sure everyone sees the controller in the tower, enjoying the sunshine, sipping his coffee, and wearing some sweet shades. That is not the reality for most 'em though. Stuck in a dungeon for hours on end, void of light and other signs of human life. Suffering through temperatures kept just above freezing. Their only connection to other people is through a microphone and, an equally cold, headset. Those guys are the true heroes.

And that is my idea to bring back the True American Hero commercials.
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Ummmm….wasn’t that a beer commercial?
 
DaleB said:
Cats are wonderful. I love cats. Especially sliced thin, over toast, with some Hollandaise...
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That's a variation of one I came up with: "I love cats...especially in stir fry."
 
Unit74 said:
Was it Arlington vs Grand Prairie in the DFW Metroplex? I did that. Tower asked if I wanted to go there instead while laughing at me. I said, no your gas is cheaper. He said, good call and set me up for a downwind.
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No. Southwest Florida back in the late 80's, and at night. (At least the only time to which I will admit.:))
 
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