Less flaps for XWind landings

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
9,036
Location
Near DC
Display Name
Display name:
Jaybird180
I've heard some pilots say they don't use full flaps when the XWinds are high, gusts are high, or other conditions where they are concerned about control authority.

Is this another OWT?
 
Depends on your definition of “high”. My swept-tail 150 taildragger ran out of rudder at a little over 12 knots with 40 degrees of flaps. Upwards of 20 knots was fine with less.

some airplanes can get grass stains on the wingtips without running out of rudder with full flaps.
 
Last edited:
That's what I was taught back in 1965 when I started flying.
I still do it when I'm flying a plane with flaps.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I've heard some pilots say they don't use full flaps when the XWinds are high, gusts are high, or other conditions where they are concerned about control authority.

Is this another OWT?
Click to expand...
Ask @Mongoose Aviator. In the other thread he says he doesn't use them for a tailwind, which is interesting to me. Why? I know that in a B-727 you can hit the flaps on the runway. That's the main practical reason I know.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I've heard some pilots say they don't use full flaps when the XWinds are high, gusts are high, or other conditions where they are concerned about control authority.
Click to expand...
I had two flight instructors say there is less chance of wind getting under a wing and lifting it up if I only use second notch and do not use full flaps with high crosswinds or any tailwind. I am comfortable with only using second notch and have practiced no flap landing. I did not have enough experience to evaluate what they said and simply took them at their word. I did not personally want to find out what happens if the wind flips my wing over.
so.... <shrug>
I really do not know how important it is or is not. But it is what I do.

In terms of tailwind, 5kts is my max tailwind component anyhow. More than that and I ask for another runway and absent that would go land somewhere else.
 
Each model is different, but you may realize a slightly higher stall speed with less flap. This provides a couple extra knots over the control surfaces at touch down, but if you are proficient in xwind landings it doesn’t matter.

At very low flap settings the configuration provides more lift than drag and not beneficial at all.
 
It is easy to demonstrate this in a floatplane. While on the water, turn 90 deg to the wind with 0° flaps........and then full flaps. It will turn into the wind MUCH faster with the flaps down.
 
I tend to make every landing the same in my Hershey bar Cherokee which is two notches of flaps. I don’t use the third notch normally (only in exceptional circumstances). I’ve landed in as much as 10 kts x-wind and rudder authority was just fine.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
I had two flight instructors say there is less chance of wind getting under a wing and lifting it up if I only use second notch and do not use full flaps with high crosswinds or any tailwind. I am comfortable with only using second notch and have practiced no flap landing. I did not have enough experience to evaluate what they said and simply took them at their word. I did not personally want to find out what happens if the wind flips my wing over.
so.... <shrug>
I really do not know how important it is or is not. But it is what I do.

In terms of tailwind, 5kts is my max tailwind component anyhow. More than that and I ask for another runway and absent that would go land somewhere else.
Click to expand...
This is what I do also in my PA28-181. If really gusty with high cross winds, I’m getting ready to go no flaps or partial to maintain control authority and to minimize raising a wing. But it depends so I go in full flaps too. What I don’t do is mess with tailwinds, unless forced to.
 
I do almost all of my PA-28 landings full flaps. Partly because I'm usually a little bit high all the time, but partly because that's just how I learned it. If it's a strong headwind, or significantly gusty I'll land 25 flaps. Partly I do that so I'll come in at a slightly lower angle, and if it's windy it'll be easy to come down anyway. Partly I do that because it puts me in an easier position to do a go-around if I need to.
 
I found this is Ch 9 of the AFH:
"Before an airplane is type certificated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), it is flight tested to ensure it meets certain requirements. Among these is the demonstration of being satisfactorily controllable with no exceptional degree of skill or alertness on the part of the pilot in 90° crosswinds up to a velocity equal to 0.2 VSO. This means a wind speed of two-tenths of the airplane’s stalling speed with power off and in landing configuration. The demonstrated crosswind velocity is included on a placard in airplanes certificated after May 3, 1962."

Based on this, I'm willing to call it an OWT for crosswind landings. However, I did find this in the next section:

"For landing in turbulent conditions, the pilot should use a power-on approach at an airspeed slightly above the normal approach speed. This provides for more positive control of the airplane when strong horizontal wind gusts, or up and down drafts, are experienced. Like other power-on approaches, a coordinated combination of both pitch and power adjustments is usually required. The proper approach attitude and airspeed require a minimum round out and should result in little or no floating during the landing.

To maintain control during an approach in turbulent air with gusty crosswind, the pilot should use partial wing flaps. With less than full flaps, the airplane is in a higher pitch attitude. Thus, it requires less of a pitch change to establish the landing attitude and touchdown at a higher airspeed to ensure more positive control."
 
Jaybird180 said:
I found this is Ch 9 of the AFH:
"Before an airplane is type certificated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), it is flight tested to ensure it meets certain requirements. Among these is the demonstration of being satisfactorily controllable with no exceptional degree of skill or alertness on the part of the pilot in 90° crosswinds up to a velocity equal to 0.2 VSO. This means a wind speed of two-tenths of the airplane’s stalling speed with power off and in landing configuration. The demonstrated crosswind velocity is included on a placard in airplanes certificated after May 3, 1962."

Based on this, I'm willing to call it an OWT for crosswind landings. However, I did find this in the next section:
Click to expand...
Presuming that .2 Vso is as much crosswind as you want to deal with.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I've heard some pilots say they don't use full flaps when the XWinds are high, gusts are high, or other conditions where they are concerned about control authority.

Is this another OWT?
Click to expand...

KISS.

No flaps. Higher IAS. More rudder capability.
 
OWT passed on by pilots lacking the skillset to land with full flaps. You can go double the max demonstrated crosswind with full flaps and land with no issue in a hershey bar Cherokee. If you can't, you pass along bogus info.

The last time I used less than full flaps in anything was at the request of a CFI to demonstrate I could land with no flaps.
 
Last edited:
EdFred said:
OWT passed on by pilots lacking the skillset to land with full flaps. You can go double the max demonstrated crosswind with full flaps and land with no issue in a hershey bar Cherokee. If you can't, you pass along bogus info.

The last time I used less than full flaps in anything was at the request of a CFI to demonstrate I could land with no flaps.
Click to expand...

I'm going to call partial BS on this. Can you land a PA-28, straight or taper, with or without flaps in gusts or crosswind? Yep, sure. I'm not even sure which is "better". But because I generally prefer to come in at 25 if it's at 20g25 or whatever doesn't mean I can't do it at 40. It means I choose not to. Generalizations are just that.
 
Clip4 said:
At very low flap settings the configuration provides more lift than drag and not beneficial at all.
Click to expand...

More lift = slower stall speed, thus a lower touch down speed.

More drag doesn’t affect the touch down speed only the approach angle and to some extent the stopping distance.

So it depends on what you goal is, if less flaps is beneficial or not.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I've got the "hershey-bar" wing arrow and I prefer landing w/25* flaps. That last notch of flaps just helps me spend more time floating down the runway in ground effect, not something I care to prolong in gusty or high xwind conditions.
... and I just don't care about touching down a couple of knots slower if it means I'm stuck floating in a vulnerable state above the runway, barely above stall and just begging to catch a gust. The tradeoff just isn't there for me.
 
Full flaps, fast, get it on the upwind wheel, and dump the flaps to stick the plane to the ground.

I’ve only flown two planes that I routinely landed without using full flaps; the PC12 and the Beaver. The PC12 because flaps 15 approach speed works better to keep you moving around the same speed as the jets you’re following into busier airports. The Beaver because full flaps is just….a ridiculous amount of flaps. The flap indicator on the beaver also has a position for “landing flaps” and “full flaps” is one past that.

Any spam cans can reliably be landed with full flaps well beyond the demonstrated crosswind component as Ed said earlier. If you can’t do it, more practice makes perfect.

6AEB4E97-6491-43FE-BE26-5D8CFC909AB7.jpeg
 
Some say to make your flaps match the wind sock.

Wind sock straight out: zero flaps.
Wind sock limp: Flaps down full.
 
Often there are no absolutes, cut & dry, or black & white. It depends on aircraft type, possibly pilot training, runway length etc..

Put me in the camp of likely less flap in stronger winds & crosswind. While at it, I’ll add a little approach speed in gusty conditions.
 
When I was a student pilot I was taught no flaps in crosswinds for all the reasons people say. No one ever pointed out that if you have a crosswind accident, you will be going faster and the result might be worse.

When I was working on my CFI, we were going to go up in a 150 when the crosswind component was 15G20. My instructor asked me what I will do. I replied as I was taught. "I would never land in a crosswind like this with full flaps."My instructor replied, "let's go up and do some full flap landings." We did. No bigger deal than any other gusty crosswind landing.

That was probably 25 years ago. I stopped making crosswind flap adjustments.
 
Pilawt said:
Most high-wing Cessna manuals recommend "minimum flap setting for field length" in strong crosswinds. Cessna aerodynamicist/test pilot Bill Thompson wrote that the reason was "for better rudder control."
Click to expand...
Hmmm...

So, when control is more important (short, narrow field) use more flaps because of the field length, but when it's less important (long, wide runway) use less?
 
From PA28-181 POH, VB-1120, Rev. 13, Mar 26, 1990
The amount of flap used during landings and the speed of the aircraft at contact with the runway should be varied according to the landing surface and conditions of wind and airplane loading.
Click to expand...
In high wind conditions, particularly in high crosswinds, it may be desirable to approach the ground at higher than normal speeds with partial or no flaps.
Click to expand...
The gross weight stalling speed of the Archer II with power off and full flaps is 49 KIAS. With flaps up this speed is increased by 6 KIAS.
Click to expand...
Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind Velocity ....... 17 KTS
Click to expand...
I certainly assume different aircraft have their own handling characteristics.

ArrowFlyer86 said:
I just don't care about touching down a couple of knots slower if it means I'm stuck floating in a vulnerable state above the runway, barely above stall and just begging to catch a gust.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I hate float at stall speeds.

sourdough44 said:
While at it, I’ll add a little approach speed in gusty conditions.
Click to expand...
Also the same. I will add half the difference of the gust factor onto my target touchdown speed.

sourdough44 said:
Often there are no absolutes, cut & dry, or black & white. It depends on aircraft type, possibly pilot training, runway length etc..
Click to expand...
Totally Agree !!!
 
Last edited:
brcase said:
More lift = slower stall speed, thus a lower touch down speed.

More drag doesn’t affect the touch down speed only the approach angle and to some extent the stopping distance.

So it depends on what you goal is, if less flaps is beneficial or not.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

Pilawt said:
Most high-wing Cessna manuals recommend "minimum flap setting for field length" in strong crosswinds. Cessna aerodynamicist/test pilot Bill Thompson wrote that the reason was "for better rudder control."
Click to expand...

Rudder authority is the controlling factor.
 
Read the POH. I've always been told to land with full flaps. I'm flying Cirrus now, they say full flaps. The idea is to land at the slowest speed possible, which seems particularly important in my mind when you consider there is a wind trying to push you off the runway.
 
Also, if the landing is not going well you can go around...partial flaps is desirable in this situation.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I've got the "hershey-bar" wing arrow and I prefer landing w/25* flaps. That last notch of flaps just helps me spend more time floating down the runway in ground effect, not something I care to prolong in gusty or high xwind conditions.
Click to expand...

Then you're doing it wrong.
 
Simple vector math.

Higher speed on final means less cross wind affect. Let's take it to extremes. If you came down final at 600 knots, a 20 knot cross wind has almost no affect.

Come down final at 20 knots, a 20 knot crosswind, without correction gives you a flight path that is 45 degrees off.

No flap means a higher approach speed, which lessens the affect. Plus, when you do flare, you will have less float, meaning less time at slow speed, close to the ground, with more crosswind affect.

The T-38 did not really care much about crosswinds, but with 145 knots on final, it took a massive crosswind to be that noticeable.
 
texasclouds said:
Yea, that puppy should glide like a greased crowbar. All day, every day. Are you leaving too many RPMs?
Click to expand...

Most people fly approach speeds at book numbers - which are max gross. But how often does one land at max gross? Oh, you're 20% under max but seem to float at book numbers? Oh, maybe because you're way too fast!
 
How could we ever have a one size fits all for this question? We seem to have every plane from a C-150 to a 727 mentioned.

Often with higher winds come gusty & unsteady winds. About the only time you will have that steady 20 kt crosswind is in the simulator.
 
I Always land a PA-28 with less flaps and a little more speed…it’s a positive control thing and go round ease for me…got to be some reason there is three notches from flat to full… but we are talking real crosswind close to the limits and maybe gusting higher…
 
Flaps are a tool, not a test of skill. You are PIC. If you feel more comfortable with the softer flare and touchdown of less flaps in gusty conditions, do it. If there is no prohibition, and if you’ve got 4-5K of runway, who cares?

And certainly, it’s fine to add speed in gusty conditions. Not only fine, but necessary if serious wind shear is possible.

Part of my briefing for solo cross country students was to land flaps 20 if things really get uncomfortable wind wise by the time they get back. I don’t care about them proving themselves in that situation. It’s easier to land in gusts with less flaps and I want them staying safe.
 
Last edited:
Since I’m a great pilot, I’ll always ask for the shorter runway with a strong crosswind to keep my skills sharp. I also never carry a bunch of extra fuel, besides the weight, ‘it takes fuel to carry fuel’.

OBTW, it’s power that controls VSI on the glide path, not pitch attitude!!

Sorry, my sarcastic side just felt it had to come out!!! My son was a CFI at a larger mill, oh the discussions a roomful of instructors could go round & round about, with no end in sight.
 
I am always amazed at the number of airplanes that get bent in crosswind conditions, it's a lot. Better to practice with an instructor, get your method down, rather than read about it then have to do it and find out you're doing it wrong.
 
As has been highlighted, at slower speeds, the crab angle to correct for a given xw drift is higher, which leads to a loss of relative rudder availability when attempting to wing low. Airplanes that land in a crab by gear structural design allowance (b-52, t-38) dont care about that, but typical trikes with the wing low method are going to run out of rudder authority with full flaps at a lower xw component than not using flaps. This has nothing to do with pilot proficiency, this is vector math that doesnt care about your opinion. The cezznas poh actually mention this correctly and succinctly as the driving reason for their recommendation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top