Length of aerobatic lessons?

Diana

Diana

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Diana
A friend of mine has taken several aerobatic lessons (in a SuperD) and is now discouraged because the instructor made him feel that he wasn't strong enough to be able to handle it. After about 40 minutes of aerobatics per lesson, my friend gets tired and feels like he isn't up for more aerobatics for that session and feels like he has maxed out on learning for that flight. The CFI wanted to keep pushing him and to keep flying for at least 20 more minutes and my friend ended up being discouraged because of the CFI's attitude about his endurance. This guy is in better physical shape than I am and he is younger than I am. He is interested in recreational aerobatics.

What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
 
Beginners in anything, including primary training, tire quickly until they become acclimated. The instructor should know that and call it quits when the student says "no mas."
Diana said:
A friend of mine has taken several aerobatic lessons (in a SuperD) and is now discouraged because the instructor made him feel that he wasn't strong enough to be able to handle it. After about 40 minutes of aerobatics per lesson, my friend gets tired and feels like he isn't up for more aerobatics for that session and feels like he has maxed out on learning for that flight. The CFI wanted to keep pushing him and to keep flying for at least 20 more minutes and my friend ended up being discouraged because of the CFI's attitude about his endurance. This guy is in better physical shape than I am and he is younger than I am. He is interested in recreational aerobatics.

What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
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Diana said:
What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
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When I was taking aerobatic lessons the whole lesson was in the 1.0-1.2 range, but that included taxiing out and flying to the practice area. This was at KBJC, a controlled airport so that all took a fair chunk of time. I would say the actual time doing aerobatics was no more than about 40 minutes. That was plenty for a beginner. Towards the end of the lessons my CFI would ask me if I wanted more or if that was enough for the day. I don't think it's a good idea for a CFI to force a student to continue past where he wants to continue. It's supposed to be fun, after all.
 
Too bad that CFI isn't understanding your friend's needs. Seems like he could limit the acro to 30 mins and then do other maneuvers like chandelles, lazy eights, dutch rolls for a little bit to "relax" and maybe practice a few landings if he isn't tired. 30 mins of acro is plenty as far as I can see ..... I think that's what it ends up being w/ Sam and me. Like you say, once you start getting a little tired you make mistakes and the learning curve suffers and then you aren't happy w/ it anymore.

Wonder if he has a talk w/ the CFI about his intentions for learning acro and his expectations for the lessons if that would work out?
Or change CFIs?
 
A good instructor in any field will teach at the pace the student learns, not at his pace. I instructor several classes for law enforcement, and if I taught at my pace the academy would be much shorter than 25 weeks. I would tell him to find a new instructor.
 
The instructor is pushing for 60 minutes of acro, despite the fact that your friend has endurance for "only" 40 minutes? ugh. It's supposed to be a learning experience, as well as fun. Tell your friend to not be discouraged - it sound like he's gotten an instructor with a bad attitude, one who doesn't have their student's interests first. Maybe you can point him to another instructor? Every instructor I've flown with over the years - which includes instructors with military and civilian backgrounds - has been very aware of the fact that we should "knock it off" when tiredness sets in.

If another instructor isn't available, maybe he can make sure there's a lesson plan discussed during a preflight brief that calls for ~35-40 minutes of aerobatics, and they should stick to the plan. But I seriously doubt there isn't another instructor available.

Also, your friend should NOT be discouraged by feeling tired after 40 minutes of aerobatics. I've been doing aerobatics for over a decade, and could probably count on one hand how many times I've spent more than 40 minutes per session doing maneuvers. Back when I flew a SuperD, most flights were 1.0-1.2 Hobbs time, including departure/return to a class D field and 20 minutes time in transit. I don't think a single training flight consisted of more than 40 minutes of acro, either.
 
The best acro instructor I ever flew with is Rich Stowell. Looking back the lessons were about 0.6 or 0.7. I always ended wanting more more instead of "do I really want to do this again", even when he made me beg to stop the negative G stuff.

Joe
 
Diana said:
What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
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I can't handle more than 30 minutes. Less than that sometimes. Total time around 45-50 minutes. If I push past that, I'm not learning anymore, I'm just padding the instructor's wallet. My instructor was great about this, encouraging me to keep the lessons short.

Tim
 
Jeanie said:
Wonder if he has a talk w/ the CFI about his intentions for learning acro and his expectations for the lessons if that would work out?
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That won't work with this particular instructor...I've flown with him, too, unfortunately.
Jeanie said:
Or change CFIs?
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It's not always easy to find a good aerobatic instructor. There's the IAC list, but there aren't too many instructors on there, and just because they are on the list doesn't mean they are any good at teaching. You lucked out with the one you found. :)

Areeda said:
The best acro instructor I ever flew with is Rich Stowell. Looking back the lessons were about 0.6 or 0.7. I always ended wanting more more instead of "do I really want to do this again", even when he made me beg to stop the negative G stuff.

Joe
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Too bad there aren't Rich Stowell clones all over the country. :)
 
Would he be able to travel for a long weekend and fly w/ some instructor at a good school and then be able to practice on his own? La Porte, Tx has a good school w/ a decathlon that I flew years ago. I'd recommend it - it's near Houston.
 
mine were .9 to 1.2 hours with only about 30 minutes of actual aerobatics...usually about 15 figures. How many lessons has he had? What figures is he practicing (pos or neg G)? Is it exhaustion or nausea? I expect with time, his endurance will improve (mine did).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Apparently this instuctor forgot what they were supposed to learn about the fundimentals of instruction?
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It's amazing how many CFI's pass the tests, but can't teach and don't care.

biskeyboy said:
mine were .9 to 1.2 hours with only about 30 minutes of actual aerobatics...usually about 15 figures. How many lessons has he had? What figures is he practicing (pos or neg G)? Is it exhaustion or nausea? I expect with time, his endurance will improve (mine did).
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It was one of those weekend courses in basic aerobatics where you fly at least twice a day, sometimes more. It wasn't a GI issue.
 
Diana:

The acro lessons I have had were about an hour with only about 30-40 minutes of actual acro. There is an outstanding instructor here in Memphis I could hook him up with if he was interested.
 
Diana said:
A friend of mine has taken several aerobatic lessons (in a SuperD) and is now discouraged because the instructor made him feel that he wasn't strong enough to be able to handle it. After about 40 minutes of aerobatics per lesson, my friend gets tired and feels like he isn't up for more aerobatics for that session and feels like he has maxed out on learning for that flight. The CFI wanted to keep pushing him and to keep flying for at least 20 more minutes and my friend ended up being discouraged because of the CFI's attitude about his endurance. This guy is in better physical shape than I am and he is younger than I am. He is interested in recreational aerobatics.

What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
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40 minutes is long enough at his stage. Sounds like the instruction is a little low on cash. When this student gets proficient, the instructor will not be able to get him out of the air until his fuel supply gets low. Sounds like the instructor could use a little PR training.
 
Depending on what they're doing when they're out for 40 minutes, that can be a long time for anyone - not just a beginner. I've got a wall full of trophies and I don't practice for 40 minutes at a time and never more than 2 flights a day. After that it's not doing any good anyway.

It's all good to push yourself beyond your comfort zone if you really want to improve more quickly. But, doesn't it kinda depend on your goals? If you just want to have some fun flying acro but aren't necessarily committed to learning difficult maneuvers or flying competitively then pushing yourself is all relative to your goals isn't it? You have to push beyond what's comfortable to build G tolerance but if it's not fun then why do it?
 
I've had 5 or 6 lessons and they all max out at about 40 minutes, coincidentally. My instructor has never been surprised, and seems to expect it.
 
I've never had a lesson, but one time I went up with this harmless looking lady and her Citabria:yikes: Holy cow, I thought we were just going to look at the country side. I thought the only reason I had to put on the parachute was because she didn't have total confidence in her aeroplane. Boy howdy was I wrong, first thing you know we're at nice viewing altitude and the next thing you know we're diving for the earth, then pull up and do a loop d loop with some sort of crazy maneuver at the very top where we dove again, and ended up doing some sort of a wing over thing. Man oh man that girl had me some kind of disoriented and I couldn't really tell which way was up (or not) for a while. Next thing you know, we're landing at some place called Gaston's and some other poor fool didn't know what was in store for her and I was just speechless and couldn't even warn her when she was fighting me for that danged parachute I had strapped on.... I wonder what ever happened to that girl:eek: Seems to me her name was something like Joyce, and that darned pilot, I have blocked her name from my memory but I recollect her name started with a D.

Seems to me that ride was about 40 minutes, probably enough for one time. I'm sure there is a huge difference between just sitting in the back seat and actually doing it though.:yesnod::D
 
wpierce said:
I've never had a lesson, but one time I went up with this harmless looking lady and her Citabria:yikes: Holy cow, I thought we were just going to look at the country side. I thought the only reason I had to put on the parachute was because she didn't have total confidence in her aeroplane. Boy howdy was I wrong, first thing you know we're at nice viewing altitude and the next thing you know we're diving for the earth, then pull up and do a loop d loop with some sort of crazy maneuver at the very top where we dove again, and ended up doing some sort of a wing over thing. Man oh man that girl had me some kind of disoriented and I couldn't really tell which way was up (or not) for a while. Next thing you know, we're landing at some place called Gaston's and some other poor fool didn't know what was in store for her and I was just speechless and couldn't even warn her when she was fighting me for that danged parachute I had strapped on.... I wonder what ever happened to that girl:eek: Seems to me her name was something like Joyce, and that darned pilot, I have blocked her name from my memory but I recollect her name started with a D.
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That's funny! :rofl:
 
Only done it once, and the first 30 minute segment was plenty long enough for a greenhorn. I could have kept flying, but needed to stop pulling G for a little while.

But after a quick break, during which we did the debrief and a briefing on the next part, I was fine for another 30 minutes. A key factor was that the second bit was less g-intensive; mostly upset-recovery exercises.
If there's some important reason to do more than 30 minutes in a day, why not break it up?
 
when i flew with chip our total flight was about 45 minutes i think. i was glad we didn't go any more than that.
 
Diana said:
A friend of mine has taken several aerobatic lessons (in a SuperD) and is now discouraged because the instructor made him feel that he wasn't strong enough to be able to handle it. After about 40 minutes of aerobatics per lesson, my friend gets tired and feels like he isn't up for more aerobatics for that session and feels like he has maxed out on learning for that flight. The CFI wanted to keep pushing him and to keep flying for at least 20 more minutes and my friend ended up being discouraged because of the CFI's attitude about his endurance. This guy is in better physical shape than I am and he is younger than I am. He is interested in recreational aerobatics.

What are your thoughts on the average length of aerobatic lessons? Obviously, it varies a lot from student to student. I can't do aerobatics for 40 minutes straight without getting tired and prefer to quit before I get sloppy and/or no longer enjoy it.
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As an ex-acro instructor I'd like to address this issue if I may.

Good acro instructors ALWAYS do an in-depth "read" on any new acro student before they even get into the aircraft.
In order for any flight instruction, ESPECIALLY aerobatic instruction, to be effective, the student absolutely has to be in a relaxed condition conducive to reception of that instruction.
In aerobatics, it is imperative that instructors engage in an ongoing "read" of the student while the flight is in progress, as at any instant in time, the student can, and often does, slip into a state of high tension. This can be caused by various circumstances including heat in the aircraft, an underveloped familiarity with the effects of g and apprehension due to unusual attitudes.
40 minutes of solid acro is WAY too long for the average beginner. I would consider a period of continuous aerobatics for 40 minutes with no rest periods involved producing no stress effects on a student to be extremely unusual. I would NEVER fly a student this long without a solid break and re-evaluation of the student's physical AND mental condition.
Please advise your friend that if what I have read about his dual is accurate, I find his response to this condition to be absolutely normal in every way.
There is a HUGE difference between pilots who can fly aerobatics and pilot instructors who can TEACH aerobatics PROPERLY.
FWIW to your friend, please advise him that even acro instructors like myself require a break every few minutes when teaching acro. A period of straight and level flight between maneuvers along with open vents and fresh air are part and parcel of the required tools in ANY acro instructor's toolbox.
Dudley Henriques
 
Dudley is correct. The notion that "YOU need to develop tolerance" need be checked with "You can't learn when you feel like cr_p".

Being a good teacher and being a good acro pilot are two sets of skills that sometimes don't overlap enough.
 
Thanks everyone, for your thoughts on this. :) I appreciate it. I just sent my friend a link to this thread. Maybe it will give him a fresh perspective about learning aerobatics and hopefully he will find a good (different) instructor.
 
I have to put a plug in here for Steve Wolf at www.wingoveraerobatics.com. I flew with Steve for the 10 hour basic aerobatics course and it was the absolute most fun that I ever spent my money on. Their Pitts S-2B is a flying dream. Steve and that Pitts made doing every maneuver on the list seem so easy and fun. Steve would ask pretty often how I was doing up there? If I said great we would go on and on. If I said good, he would ask if I was ready to take a break. He in no way wanted to mess up my comfort level. We did the 10 hours in 12 flights in 6 days. Plus about 20 hours of ground instruction and hanger talk. Most of it was absolutely fasinating to me.

Steve's wife is Kathy Hirtz who is a brain specialist MD. Kathy met Steve after she was refered to him when she asked Patty Wagstaff who she recommended for aerobatic lessons.

They used to live in Oregon but are now in sunny Florida. If anyone is interested in a good instructor for upsets and/or aerobatics, I can highly recommend Steve Wolf.

Rick
 
Steve said:
He's pretty good at plane building, too.

http://www.wolfpitts.com/
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That was a major reason I decided to check into his aerobatic training program when I was shopping for one to go with. That, and sunny Florida in March, and the friendly, calming, patient, confident vibes he gave over the phone when I first called made up my mind right away and it was all great from there on. Very glad I did that!:yesnod:
 
LOL Rick... this is gross, but the first thing I thought of when I read your thread title was "Well, if someone pukes at the top of a loop and it ends up in your lap at the bottom, then that would probably be a pretty good time to end the lesson and go get cleaned up!"

OK, I have a lot of issues. :eek:
 
flygirl34q said:
LOL Rick... this is gross, but the first thing I thought of when I read your thread title was "Well, if someone pukes at the top of a loop and it ends up in your lap at the bottom, then that would probably be a pretty good time to end the lesson and go get cleaned up!"

OK, I have a lot of issues. :eek:
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I thought along the same lines when I first saw the thread so you're not alone.
 
flygirl34q said:
LOL Rick... this is gross, but the first thing I thought of when I read your thread title was "Well, if someone pukes at the top of a loop and it ends up in your lap at the bottom, then that would probably be a pretty good time to end the lesson and go get cleaned up!"
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Well, that is definitely a pretty good inidcator that it's break time! :D
 
flygirl34q said:
LOL Rick... this is gross, but the first thing I thought of when I read your thread title was "Well, if someone pukes at the top of a loop and it ends up in your lap at the bottom, then that would probably be a pretty good time to end the lesson and go get cleaned up!"

OK, I have a lot of issues. :eek:
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It never got close to that Lynn. Steve did have barf bags available though. You do the flying except when he demonstrates the next maneuver. The spin series was the only thing that made me the least bit queasy. That included flat, accelerated, inverted, and cross-over. We left these for the last part of each lesson and when I started to not be comfortable we would head back to land. By day 3 or 4 the tolerance built up quite a bit also. Light-medium meals and keeping well hydrated worked well for me. Really though, when you have the controls and can do all of that stuff (hammerheads, Cuban 8s, tailslides, slow rolls, barrel rolls, torque rolls-my favorite!), you are having so much fun that sickness doesn't have room to get in and mess it all up.
 
I offered to take a friend on an aerobatic flight but he declined due to a nausea experience on a prior flight. He told me the classic line "I would have thrown up, but I didn't know which way was up."
 
B2Soar said:
It never got close to that Lynn. Steve did have barf bags available though. You do the flying except when he demonstrates the next maneuver. The spin series was the only thing that made me the least bit queasy. That included flat, accelerated, inverted, and cross-over. We left these for the last part of each lesson and when I started to not be comfortable we would head back to land. By day 3 or 4 the tolerance built up quite a bit also. Light-medium meals and keeping well hydrated worked well for me. Really though, when you have the controls and can do all of that stuff (hammerheads, Cuban 8s, tailslides, slow rolls, barrel rolls, torque rolls-my favorite!), you are having so much fun that sickness doesn't have room to get in and mess it all up.
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That sounds like it would be so much fun! :D When I first started flying lessons, everyone told me that I might get sick, so for the first three lessons, I didn't eat anything beforehand, just in case. It's funny to think about that now. :rofl: I fly an Archer now... and when I was in a flying club before that, one of the guys told me he thought it would be possible to barrel roll an Archer because it's supposed to be a zero G maneuver... but as far as I know, he never actually tried it! :yikes: Aerobatics are on my bucket list though to try... in an airplane I know won't come apart in case I don't fly the moves perfectly. Remember when Bob Hoover used to fly his aerobatic routine in his Aero Commander?? He was da bomb! :D
 
Hi Lynn,

One of my goals is to learn to fly a barrell roll smoothly. I've only tried one once so I don't have the hang of it yet... but once I get the decathlon I'll practice a lot.
Have fun at Gastons!
J
 
barrel roll isn't a zero G maneuver. it's a positive G maneuver. Typically, G's range from +1 to +3 G. You remain corrdinated throughout. You can fly a loop as a positive G maneuver if you pinch at the top. They're good ones to start with, but G's don't make you sick. Contradictions between inner ear and visual clues make you sick.
 
flygirl34q said:
... and when I was in a flying club before that, one of the guys told me he thought it would be possible to barrel roll an Archer because it's supposed to be a zero G maneuver... but as far as I know, he never actually tried it!
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Thank god...and I hope nobody actually listened to him since he clearly didn't know anything about acro...never seen a zero G barrell roll. :) 'Ballistic' roll maybe, but those are a good way to dump oil all over the belly if you don't have inverted oil. Truth be told, this airplane (like almost any airplane) could be successfully (aileron) rolled. But if you're going to take it upon yourself to perform acro in an airplane not approved for aerobatics, you better be experienced and knowledgeable about exactly what you're doing. I have a feeling his "zero G barrel roll" would have ended up an "accidentally very high speed, high G barrell roll". :eek:
 
biskeyboy said:
barrel roll isn't a zero G maneuver. it's a positive G maneuver. Typically, G's range from +1 to +3 G. You remain corrdinated throughout. You can fly a loop as a positive G maneuver if you pinch at the top. They're good ones to start with, but G's don't make you sick. Contradictions between inner ear and visual clues make you sick.
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IME high G definitely adds to the queasiness, possibly as a result of the reduced blood flow to the brain.
 
gismo said:
IME high G definitely adds to the queasiness, possibly as a result of the reduced blood flow to the brain.
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to each his own. with me, it's the negative G's that make me want to hurl. but the feeling is gone as soon as I'm positive again.
 
whifferdill said:
Thank god...and I hope nobody actually listened to him since he clearly didn't know anything about acro...never seen a zero G barrell roll. :) 'Ballistic' roll maybe, but those are a good way to dump oil all over the belly if you don't have inverted oil. Truth be told, this airplane (like almost any airplane) could be successfully (aileron) rolled. But if you're going to take it upon yourself to perform acro in an airplane not approved for aerobatics, you better be experienced and knowledgeable about exactly what you're doing. I have a feeling his "zero G barrel roll" would have ended up an "accidentally very high speed, high G barrell roll". :eek:
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The "non aerobatic aircraft barrel roll" comes up quite often. Much of the interest in this area comes from Bob Hoover's displays in the Shrike and a few other display pilots who routinely do display acro in non aerobatic airplanes.
The way I've always handled this when it comes up is very much as you have done; to first of all explain that the pilots who do this are extremely qualified, on waivers, and operating these aircraft within their respective envelopes whether it be normal or utility. I next explain that these airplanes in the hands of a non professional attempting aerobatics are VERY likely to have an end result of stress either achieved in the maneuver itself or recovering from the maneuver that are outside the envelope limits.
In other words, SOME maneuvers can aerodynamically be done in these airplanes and some can not; NONE legally without special waivers.
So where does this leave us in attempting to barrel roll an Archer?
The problem we always have when dealing with issues like this one with a newbie or even in a flight safety seminar is that we have not one but 2 issues to address here; first is that it is most certainly possible (but as I've said, not advisable) to barrel roll an Archer or a like aircraft for that matter.
Issue number 2 involves explaining to a newbie the "facts" that would indicate the danger involved, if the barrel roll, or any aerobatic maneuver for that matter, is attempted by a NOVICE. In some cases this means convincing a pilot with extremely good flying skills but 0 aerobatic skills that HE or SHE is NOT safe in attempting these maneuvers in these airplanes, or in fact attempting ANY aerobatic maneuver in ANY airplane without proper training in a proper aircraft.

Addressing the roll issue per se, strictly from an aerobatic standpoint, and addressing the issue from the viewpoint of a PROFESSIONAL DISPLAY PILOT; barrel rolls are actually the safest of all the rolls, including aileron rolls, to perform in a non aerobatic aircraft. The reason is POSITIVE CONTROL of the g completely through the roll.
In an aileron roll in a non aerobatic airplane, the roll rate is usually so slow that unless an extremely high nose attitude is used for the entry setup, a HUGE dish out will occur on the backside resulting in excessive altitude loss, not to mention the added g and asymmetrical angle of attack issues inherent to a rolling pullout.
In a barrel roll, positive g can be varied, but it's positive all the way through the roll including the recovery; a MUCH safer scenario in a non aerobatic aircraft.

So the bottom line on this issue is that yes, it can be done, and yes, it MUST be done correctly or, YES, the results can be anywhere from a mild to a massive over g in a botched recovery. Yes, it's illegal, and definitely NO, no competent aerobatic pilot or aerobatic instructor would advocate that it be attempted at any time by any pilot outside the extremely small world of highly trained professionals who do these maneuvers on waivers.
 
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