Leaving left hand pattern to the rightat uncontrolled airport

[Doug F]

Setup:

• Runway runs east-west
• Airport has light to moderate traffic
  
• Desired flight path is to the southwest

If I depart on the west runway, I just turn 45 and exit the pattern.

How would you get from the departure leg on the east runway to a southwest heading. What is the best practice and what is less than best but won't cause any regulator grief.

Confounding factor: DPE is in the right seat and not known to favor right turns out of a left hand pattern.

I've poked around looking for pattern management and all I find is 'depart on 45 left turn' and all seem to be based on an AC for un-towered airports.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Sinistar]

For the east departure with southwest destination I always takeoff, turn left cross wind, turn left downwind and continue the climb on the downwind. When well above pattern altitude and away from the airport I then make the SW turn.

I just did that very thing on my checkride last week and the DPE didn't say a word during flight or comment on it at the end. Both CFI's told me that the 45deg to the right after takeoff was not preferred. On return to the same airport I overflew the pattern +800 and did the right teardrop back into that same left pattern and he specifically called that out during final review and noted that he really liked it.

YMMV. Curious what others will say?

 

[mjburian]

AIM 4-3-3 says: "If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude."

If you want to exit a traffic pattern the "wrong way" by making a right turn out of a left-hand pattern, climb straight out until pattern altitude and then make your turn to the right.

 

[mjburian]

For the east departure with southwest destination I always takeoff, turn left cross wind, turn left downwind and continue the climb on the downwind. When well above pattern altitude and away from the airport I then make the SW turn.

Any concern about climbing into turbine traffic on downwind (typically 500' higher pattern altitude)?

 

[wrbix]

If you want to exit a traffic pattern the "wrong way" by making a right turn out of a left-hand pattern, climb straight out until pattern altitude and then make your turn to the right.

.....that’s what I’ve commonly done, but never sure how to announce that intention on CTAF without excess wordiness. Maybe:”Bugsmasher 1234, departing runway xx, straight out with departure to the <cardinal direction>?

 

[mjburian]

.....that’s what I’ve commonly done, but never sure how to announce that intention on CTAF without excess wordiness. Maybe:”Bugsmasher 1234, departing runway xx, straight out with departure to the <cardinal direction>?

That's not a bad way to call it, though I'd probably just call a straight out departure. Climb to pattern altitude before turning and keep the climb going in the turn. By the time you're back to/near the airport environment, you're probably 1000'+ above pattern altitude. And by then I'm already on with approach control.

 

[Doug F]

Thank you all. I think I'll avoid any right turns just so I don't get into a discussion with the DPE.

I had this conversation with someone a few weeks back and they recommended that I do the following:
Departure, left crosswind, left downwind at pattern altitude, turn left at midfield, cross the runway at pattern altitude, then straight out for a bit, start climbing, then turn southwest.

On a single runway airport with everyone using the same (east) runway, this would work since there should be nobody in a left pattern for the west runway or doing a right hand pattern. The thing that concerned me was the 'should' part...if there's somebody landing west or doing a right pattern and not announcing things could get messy...

Any thoughts on this approach?

FWIW, this could be my checkride. The airport has an longer E/W runway and a shorter NE/SW runway. I'm hoping for winds that favor either a western takeoff on the long runway or the NE/SW runway...

 

[James331]

I'd just fly a little further out before you make your right turn on course.

Ofcourse make sure you tell people in the pattern what you're doing, and maybe even brief it with the DPE.

 

[Doug F]

...and maybe even brief it with the DPE.

Whu Whuuuu??? You mean talk to the DPE??? ;-)

Just curious, let's say I briefed 'straight out, past the pattern, then right turn to the SW'. If he had a problem with that would he say something right there or would he let me take that path then bust me if he thought it was unacceptable? I had a teacher like that in high school...zero feedback until she put the hammer down.

FWIW, I'll discuss with my CFI also; he will have a good idea of what is reasonable and the best practice for each departure option.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I had this conversation with someone a few weeks back and they recommended that I do the following:
Departure, left crosswind, left downwind at pattern altitude, turn left at midfield, cross the runway at pattern altitude, then straight out for a bit, start climbing, then turn southwest.

You are concerned that the DPE isn't going to like any departure from the published recommendations (straight or left 45) so someone recommends doing something just made up on the spot, contrary to what is published, hoping there is no one on the upwind at pattern altitude and the DPE is not going to notice?

If the DPE wants it by the book, the book says 45 in the direction of the pattern, or straight out.

 

[mscard88]

What has your CFI taught you? And how far along are you? If you're close to check ride ready you better learn this quickly. For the proper departure mjburian in post #3 quoted what is recommended in the AIM, and there's also Advisory Circular 90-66A below. This is what the DPE will be expecting.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC90-66A.pdf

AIM 4-3-3 says: "If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude."

 

[Stewartb]

It would have been a good question for the DPE. The ones I’ve known are better teachers than most CFIs.

 

[Doug F]

You are concerned that the DPE isn't going to like any departure from the published recommendations (straight or left 45) so someone recommends doing something just made up on the spot, contrary to what is published, hoping there is no one on the upwind at pattern altitude and the DPE is not going to notice?

If the DPE wants it by the book, the book says 45 in the direction of the pattern, or straight out.

Not sure it was made up on the spot. I am finding that there are lots of opinions on the right way to do <stuff> so I'm always looking for how different people approach a situation.

The issue/confusion I have with 'by the book' is that it really doesn't go beyond the 'straight out or 45 to the left'...it's the 'what comes next' that stops me. If I do a straight out to beyond the pattern then turn right for a SW heading, my resultant flight path puts me way to the east of the line between my starting and ending airport so I'm trying to get to top of climb and back onto my projected flight path so I can hit my first checkpoint. The less 'out and back' stuff I have to do, the easier it'll be to hit my first checkpoint. I'm not allowed to use GPS. I also know I'm probably making this harder than it actually is...just my nature. I'll also sim the flight several times before I do the checkride.

My solo XC turned out to be a 'straight out' so the whole thing was dead bang easy since my departure leg pretty much put me on a direct path to my first landing airport. The checkride is more complex.

I will hash this out with my CFI before the checkride and get all the different paths figured out.

 

[Doug F]

What has your CFI taught you? And how far along are you? If you're close to check ride ready you better learn this quickly. For the proper departure mjburian in post #3 quoted what is recommended in the AIM, and there's also Advisory Circular 90-66A below. This is what the DPE will be expecting.

Checkride is next month so I have a bit of time. We've discussed standard pattern work and departures. The nuances of 'how to get from point A to point B on a cross country so you hit your checkpoints and times' sort of popped up for me as I sat down to plan the XC portion of the checkride. I will discuss with my CFI.

I've read the AC. See my response to Capt. Thorpe for my confusion related to the AC.

If 'twas me flying for real, I'd do a straight out, right turn after getting past the pattern, and follow the GPS to the next airport. I have to use paper for the checkride so I want to minimize looking confused in the cockpit during the test.

 

[mscard88]

Checkride is next month so I have a bit of time. We've discussed standard pattern work and departures. The nuances of 'how to get from point A to point B on a cross country so you hit your checkpoints and times' sort of popped up for me as I sat down to plan the XC portion of the checkride. I will discuss with my CFI.

I've read the AC. See my response to Capt. Thorpe for my confusion related to the AC.

If 'twas me flying for real, I'd do a straight out, right turn after getting past the pattern, and follow the GPS to the next airport. I have to use paper for the checkride so I want to minimize looking confused in the cockpit during the test.

If that's the case, you could plot a checkpoint to hit for straight out, say a mile or two, and maybe one or two to get you back onto your flight plan flight path.

 

[Doug F]

If that's the case, you could plot a checkpoint to hit for straight out, say a mile or two, and maybe one or two to get you back onto your flight plan flight path.

2 miles makes sense; that puts me out beyond a 1 mile pattern. Let me play with that a bit as well as discuss with my CFI.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

For my home airport (Cable in SoCal), most traffic departs to the north. Our procedure from runway 24 is to make a left crosswind, left downwind (climbing above TPA on downwind), then depart north over the approach numbers. Usually I'm 2600-2700' msl at this point. TPA is 2250'.

 

[James331]

Whu Whuuuu??? You mean talk to the DPE??? ;-)

Just curious, let's say I briefed 'straight out, past the pattern, then right turn to the SW'. If he had a problem with that would he say something right there or would he let me take that path then bust me if he thought it was unacceptable? I had a teacher like that in high school...zero feedback until she put the hammer down.

FWIW, I'll discuss with my CFI also; he will have a good idea of what is reasonable and the best practice for each departure option.

Well that depends on the DPE, like any profession, there are good ones, ok ones and bad ones.

As far as a bust goes, going straight out to exit the pattern and turning on course, I don't know what leg the DPE would have to stand on with a bust.

I'd also ask your CFI and other students, remember you're paying this dude $500+ CASH for a few hours work, if he has a reputation for being a jack arse, nothing wrong with using a different DPE.

That said, he'd have to really have it out of fail someone to try to bust you for going straight a little and turning on course.

If that's the case, you could plot a checkpoint to hit for straight out, say a mile or two, and maybe one or two to get you back onto your flight plan flight path.

That's what I would do, keeps it clear what you're doing and it pretty hard to argue with, plus it makes sense for your desired direction of flight.


Is also look at it like this, you highest risk area for a mid air is near a airport or in the traffic pattern, the less time you spend on the area where planes are operating the closest to each other the less risk of nailing one.

 

[Sinistar]

Any concern about climbing into turbine traffic on downwind (typically 500' higher pattern altitude)?

Good point! At our sleepy little rural airport we've never seen turbine traffic (except the Blackhawks and Chinooks ). There is a 414 on the field and we're just short enough that it always looks like a short field takeoff to me. However I am sure a Pilatus or TBM could get in and out so I see your point.

Since I did this very departure on my PPL checkride last week and he said nothing I took it to mean its okay. Perhaps he just bit his tongue on that one. Clearly it wasn't per the AIM as you included.

 

[Brewer20]

At my home field (uncontrolled), the typical IFR departure instructions from clearance delivery result in a right turn from the normal light winds runway (which has a left pattern). My CFII and I fly this routinely as does every business jet/turbo prop that departs.

Announce your intentions and look for possible traffic conflicts.

 

[FlySince9]

If I'm understanding your question... On departure: " bugsmasher123 departing rnwy 9 making left traffic then departing to the southwest...." fly your normal left traffic (with position reports as usual) to downwind, when you reach pattern altitude turn southwest...

 

[Doug F]

OK, so I spent time with my CFI today. He says that either a straight out exit pattern, right turn to the SW OR the pattern altitude/cross mid-field work and are acceptable to the DPE. He says discussing my plans with the DPE is a good idea so the DPE knows What I'm thinking.

When I asked about the risk of traffic on a 'right pattern' or 'nutjob just flying wherever', the response was that 'see and avoid' is always operative so if there's someone in the way, change plans. The airport is small with limited traffic so this all makes sense.

Both the CFI and DPE are good folks so I'm comfortable that either exit will work.

Still hoping for winds favorable for a western departure!

 

[Palmpilot]

Does anyone know why the regulations don't say anything about direction of turns on departure?

 

[Hank S]

For the east departure with southwest destination I always takeoff, turn left cross wind, turn left downwind and continue the climb on the downwind. When well above pattern altitude and away from the airport I then make the SW turn.

That works for me, too. But I'm almost always above pattern altitude before turning downwind.

 

[TommyG]

Does anyone know why the regulations don't say anything about direction of turns on departure?

Probably because it really doesn’t matter which way you turn. You’re the pilot, you make the decision. You should be aware of any inbound and outbound traffic. This is really being over thought. You can go left, right, straight out.

 

[Sinistar]

That works for me, too. But I'm almost always above pattern altitude before turning downwind.

Similar here. Im usually reaching pattern altitude and dialing back MP and RPM right before i turn downwind. So usually a cruise climb up out of the downwind.

 

[Sinistar]

It would have been a good question for the DPE. The ones I’ve known are better teachers than most CFIs.

Just finished my PPL checkride last week. I asked the DPE a question early on...he smiled and said "When the applicant asks a question you then have to answer the question satisfactorily " Yes, he smiled. I looked up the answer. He then said something like "Remember that before you ask another question." He wasnt mean...i just think he wanted it to be a official exam and not buddy, buddy.

 

[deftone]

It would have been a good question for the DPE. The ones I’ve known are better teachers than most CFIs.

I agree with this. My DPE was helpful in identifying things in my flying that my CFI never mentioned.

 

[Hank S]

Similar here. Im usually reaching pattern altitude and dialing back MP and RPM right before i turn downwind. So usually a cruise climb up out of the downwind.

What are you flying that you reduce power at 1000' agl? I only reduce power on crosswind when staying in the pattern, so that I don't blow through the altitude.

 

[Sinistar]

What are you flying that you reduce power at 1000' agl? I only reduce power on crosswind when staying in the pattern, so that I don't blow through the altitude.

In the 182, I usually hit pattern altitude just before turning crosswind. If I am staying in the pattern I will usually cut back to 20" and 2200rpm and then step it down more and more throughout downwind, base and final until flying RPM at ~1700 and prop full forward of course.

If, in the case of the OP, where I would depart on downwind I get it back off of full power some to maybe 22" and 2300rpm and continue to cruise climb around 110mph which is about 700fpm (this winter). Then of course at cruise altitude maybe pull it back a bit more and lean pretty aggressively. I do not do the entire climb from takeoff to cruise level at full power - even with cowl flaps that can be fully opened.

 

[Skyrys62]

How would you get from the departure leg on the east runway to a southwest heading. What is the best practice and what is less than best but won't cause any regulator grief.

Trust your feelings. Reach out....Use the force.

or not...

Departin the pattern at 12 parsecs!