Landings in wind

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jedi93

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So I’m having issues landing in winds. Really anything about 15knots. I get crabbing on final, but when I get into ground effect, my brain freezes and I’m stuck trying to remember what aileron to throw in and then it still perplexes my brain to go opposite rudder. I have some great landings with no wind, but having to account for aileron/rudder and then if wind changes having go opposite aileron and then the opposite rudder blows my mind. I’m slowly getting it, but my landings on days like today 20 knot winds and I’m never on centerline. Any tips/suggestions that my CFi might not be getting through to me?
 
Gotta pat your head and rub your belly...

Feet point you down the runway. Stick flys you to the middle of the runway. Never have to academically decide this or that.

Just make those two things happen, and you’re good. I frequently have no idea which way the wind is from, and I don’t care.
 
In my little light sport tailwheel 20 knots is usually "leave it in the hangar" weather. I've had it out in some nasty winds but I don't care for it too much. But I gotta do it now & again to stay comfortable. Fly the winds enough and you won't be thinking about what to do ... in a sense it's like riding a bike as you just feel the thing while focused down the runway and your hands and feet will know what to do. The only thing I've ever found that helps is called practice, practice, practice.

You're doing fine ... stay the course.
 
If your CFI is not helping, perhaps test out a new CFI. One little note. If winds are from one direction one moment and the other direction the next moment, they are more variable than they are a crosswind. Sometimes that is trickier than a constant crosswind, but it usually doesn’t require a lot of rudder inputs. A real crosswind landing requires changes in the amount of aileron and rudder applied, but not usually switching to complete opposite control inputs. I think I read your post correctly.

One thing I recall having to emphasize to students is that typically you’ll be changing the aileron input a lot more than the rudder input. Once you have a little bit of rudder applied, the airplane may become more stable and you can focus more on aileron input to prevent drifting. Some at-altitude exercises might be in order to cement the visuals and control input effectiveness. Flying a low approach and overflying low over the runway while carefully practicing control inputs is a good introduction for many students.
 
Be careful with them "Trent Palmer Style" low passes down the runway ...:D
 
TrueCourse said:
If your CFI is not helping, perhaps test out a new CFI. One little note. If winds are from one direction one moment and the other direction the next moment, they are more variable than they are a crosswind. Sometimes that is trickier than a constant crosswind, but it usually doesn’t require a lot of rudder inputs. A real crosswind landing requires changes in the amount of aileron and rudder applied, but not usually switching to complete opposite control inputs. I think I read your post correctly.

One thing I recall having to emphasize to students is that typically you’ll be changing the aileron input a lot more than the rudder input. Once you have a little bit of rudder applied, the airplane may become more stable and you can focus more on aileron input to prevent drifting. Some at-altitude exercises might be in order to cement the visuals and control input effectiveness. Flying a low approach and overflying low over the runway while carefully practicing control inputs is a good introduction for many students.
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Had thought of this also. But I also don’t necessarily want to be starting over at 25 or so hours. CFI says my pattern work is spot on, just these windy landings suck when I’m in ground effect and having to try and get back on centerline all the time.
 
Tools said:
Gotta pat your head and rub your belly...

Feet point you down the runway. Stick flys you to the middle of the runway. Never have to academically decide this or that.

Just make those two things happen, and you’re good. I frequently have no idea which way the wind is from, and I don’t care.
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I will keep this in mind next time. Stick toward direction needed to get back to centerline and feet to point down runway.
 
The key to crosswind landings is accepting that at the point of touchdown, your feet (ie the rudder) are doing something different from your hands (ie the ailerons).

their are multiple methods to land on crosswinds. I crab down final, and start to correct as I cross the fence. Use your feet to align with the runway and simultaneously use opposite aileron to counteract drift. If you run out of rudder to maintain alignment, the crosswind is too strong.

One thing I see is newer (and some not so newer) pilot let up on the ailerons once the mains have settled down on the runway. Instead, the aileron deflection needs to increase until you're eventually full over to the stops.
 
How do you taxi? Do the same right before you land. Point your nose with the rudder to go down the middle of the runway.

Dip your wing into the wind so it doesn’t flip you over. If you give the wind a chance to sneak under the wing, it’s gonna try. If you learned how to hold aileron into the wind while taxiing, same thing.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
How do you taxi? Do the same right before you land. Point your nose with the rudder to go down the middle of the runway.

Dip your wing into the wind so it doesn’t flip you over. If you give the wind a chance to sneak under the wing, it’s gonna try. If you learned how to hold aileron into the wind while taxiing, same thing.
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What would you say is more important, keeping nose down center or using the ailerons? I know that’s a loaded question as both are needed though.
 
jedi93 said:
What would you say is more important, keeping nose down center or using the ailerons? I know that’s a loaded question as both are needed though.
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You answered it.

If you ONLY keep the nose aligned with the runway - the wind will be continually blowing you off-course.

If you ONLY keep the aileron input correcting your flight path - you'll land in a manner other-than-parallel with the runway.

You should not be choosing one of these as more important than the other.

** Unless, that is - you fly that DC-3 with the Goodyear-engineered suspension - @Pilawt to the courtesy phone for a drawing.

Oh - and how's it feel when you've landed super-slick-like-you-know-what-you're-doing in gusty-cross-windy-ohmigosh-can-I-do-this-whatthehell-am-I-doing? @RyanB to the courtesy phone for a description of that, please.
 
Landing anywhere near the demonstrated crosswind component is very challenging for a student or most newer pilots. It takes a lot of practice to get good at crosswind landings. If you have 10+ knots of crosswind during your checkride for private pilot you are probably doing something wrong, in my opinion.
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I just felt like today was a sucky day of landing practice for me. At one point on the landing, I guess I didn’t have Inputs in and felt the plane start to go almost sideways on the runway like it was about to a spin around. But like y’all said I’ll keep practicing and one day after about 10k landings I’ll be proficient.
 
For me, I had difficulty getting my feet and hands not to move together. Left aileron and left rudder automatically went together. I asked my CFI if we could go up and do nothing but slips for half an hour or so. That seemed to break the automatic connection a bit and got me used to doing opposite things with hands and feet.

It helped me. Don't know whether it will help you, but might be worth a try.
 
Half Fast said:
For me, I had difficulty getting my feet and hands not to move together. Left aileron and left rudder automatically went together. I asked my CFI if we could go up and do nothing but slips for half an hour or so. That seemed to break the automatic connection a bit and got me used to doing opposite things with hands and feet.

It helped me. Don't know whether it will help you, but might be worth a try.
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I was about to write close to the same thing. More info on slips High On Final? Here's How To Use A Forward Slip To Correct | Boldmethod
 
Rgbeard said:
** Unless, that is - you fly that DC-3 with the Goodyear-engineered suspension - @Pilawt to the courtesy phone for a drawing.
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Flying 4904.jpg

Im19490728FL-Goodyear.jpg

Castering main gear axles were available on several types of tailwheel-equipped lightplanes, as well. Cessna 170, 180 and 195, and Stinsons come to mind. Great in theory, but castering gear can create its own set of issues while taxiing.

Ideally you want to touch down tracking in the direction you are pointed in any airplane, but it's especially important with a tailwheel. In a tailwheel airplane the center of gravity is behind the main gear, and given half a chance it has the propensity to swap ends. (Ever push a supermarket shopping cart backwards? Same thing.) A crosswind complicates things because it is pushing you sideways relative to the direction you're pointed. The solution is to fly sideways in the opposite direction to neutralize the crosswind. How do you do that? In a slip! Wing low into the wind, and use the rudder to keep the airplane from turning and keep it lined up with the runway.

There are a handful of airplanes that are designed to be landed level in a crosswind, which means some crossways motion when touching down. The old Ercoupe, with interconnected ailerons and rudder, could not be slipped, so the landing gear was designed to handle the sideward forces of a crabbed touchdown.
 
Stop thinking about it. Rudder keeps you aligned with the runway, aileron keeps you on the runway. That's pretty much it. Once you keep the centerline of the airplane parallel with the center line of the runway, you use the aileron to keep from drifting off the centerline. No real thought involved. If you move the aileron the wrong way, you'll move off the runway quicker, so you put opposite aileron in. Rudder just keeps the airplane center line aligned with the runway centerline. As you change the amount of aileron, the nose will yaw, keep it in line with rudder. On most days the ailerons will constantly be adjusted and you'll be dancing on the rudders. That's just the way it is.
 
Make sure you're flying the airplane all the way down to the ground. In light and/or steady winds, you can (though it's not really good technique) get away with establishing the correct pitch attitude and the airplane just sort of settles down straight ahead. But once the winds get rowdy, that doesn't work any more and you have to actively keep the airplane pointed where you want it to be pointed. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Try breaking the crab earlier, dipping the wind into the wind, & using the rudder pedals to keep the nose pointing straight before you get to the threshold. After that, it’s just a matter of playing the wind to keep the plane over the runway (ailerons) & the nose pointed straight (rudder). You’re landing on one wheel at first. That throws some people. A little extra speed helps, too. Then drive it down.
 
This is the one thing I think simulators are excellent for during primary training. They’re a waste of time for everything else in primary IMO.

dial in a 20 knot crosswind at 90 degrees and keep flying final over and over until it clicks. Rudder to keep the nose pointed strait down the line and aileron to stay on center line. If you can do it even poorly in the sim the real thing is far easier.
 
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When I was a primary student I would fire up the mighty 152 and find the runway at ALN which was closest to 90-deg to the wind. And practice my one-wheel touch and goes!

It takes time and lots of early attempts at success.
 
jedi93 said:
Any tips/suggestions that my CFi might not be getting through to me?
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Could have prepared you before it got windy by having you make a long final and practice side-slipping from one side of the runway to the other and back, keeping your longitudinal axis parallel with the centerline. Might not be too late.
 
Castering main gear sounds terrifying to me...

Better xwind landings are from more practice. I don't think there is a shortcut. Flying a slower plane may help, if only because it makes any given wind a higher percentage of the landing speed.
 
@jedi93 - A few more thoughts. With crosswinds in our small planes you should always being landing on the upwind wheel first. So as @Rgbeard was mentioning, you will always be landing on one wheel first. This you can practice even if almost no wind. For some reason, I find it 1000x easier and actually fun on the left side. On the right side, more challenging for me.

There is another technique and it seems people use either. You can also do a slip all the way down to touchdown. This might be a good one to practice, even if you abort right before touchdown and just like it for practice. It basically means you are gradually using more aileron and rudder as you slow down and cross the threshold at which point you will have almost the same control configuration as if you rotated right after the long crab on final. Its great practice too in that the time you are decoupling your feet and your hands lasts a lot longer. Just do whatever it takes to keep the nose down the runway (rudder) and tracking straight down final (aileron).
 
One of the biggest errors pilots make is neutralizing the control wheel prior to touchdown. It seems easier to hold a stick into the wind than a control wheel. We become so accustomed to having the yoke centered when we touch down that it just seems wrong to have it angled when we land. Make a real effort to land with the upwind gear touching first & you'll get the hang of it. I love teaching crosswind takeoff & landings.
 
The reason you are having problems is because you don’t know how to side slip an airplane. Hire a CFI that does.
 
What helped me, many years ago, was to fly down the runway, flying the airplane.

Just fly the pattern, down to about to flare, and level off and fly down the runway. And realizing that the airplane flies the same as in the air and in the pattern.

I only had to do it once or twice.

FYI, changing instructors does not mean starting over. The new instructor may take one flight to figure out where you are in the process, but then should be teaching from where you are, not starting over.
 
I could do xwind ok but I was always bit confused as my own CFI says exactly the same thing as the guys here. It’s not wrong but maybe not very specific.

Anyways, my CFI went in a long 4 week trip and he had another CFI take his freelancers for a few weeks. This other CFI is known as the problem student fixer. And she said you are doing too much with the ailerons. They are too slow at slow speeds. So next time around she held onto the yoke and made it hard for me to move too much once we were slipping. She also said remember to use opposite rudder to correct your line after you input due to a movement, like when you taxi. Grease it in about 15 knots cross the runway on that next pass.

I reviewed the camera footage after and it wasn’t like I didn’t move the yoke at all when she said she’d lock the yoke on me. It’s more like I moved it to keep the bank mostly constant. I remember very much so that I was very active on the rudder. , like I was taxing.

Just my recent experience. You might want to consider trying something similar. As always do what your CFI says is safe. All that you get here is stories not instructions!
 
saddletramp said:
One of the biggest errors pilots make is neutralizing the control wheel prior to touchdown. It seems easier to hold a stick into the wind than a control wheel. We become so accustomed to having the yoke centered when we touch down that it just seems wrong to have it angled when we land. Make a real effort to land with the upwind gear touching first & you'll get the hang of it. I love teaching crosswind takeoff & landings.
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I second this advice. Once I really internalized this lesson my x-wind landings improved dramatically.
 
saddletramp said:
One of the biggest errors pilots make is neutralizing the control wheel prior to touchdown. It seems easier to hold a stick into the wind than a control wheel. We become so accustomed to having the yoke centered when we touch down that it just seems wrong to have it angled when we land.
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My belief is that people subconsciously start relaxing because they think they're done flying and just neutralize the controls. Tricycle gear airplanes can cover up a lot of poor crosswind techniques as well so the lesson doesn't get learned as well as it probably should be.

SebIp said:
Anyways, my CFI went in a long 4 week trip and he had another CFI take his freelancers for a few weeks. This other CFI is known as the problem student fixer. And she said you are doing too much with the ailerons. They are too slow at slow speeds. So next time around she held onto the yoke and made it hard for me to move too much once we were slipping. She also said remember to use opposite rudder to correct your line after you input due to a movement, like when you taxi. Grease it in about 15 knots cross the runway on that next pass.

I reviewed the camera footage after and it wasn’t like I didn’t move the yoke at all when she said she’d lock the yoke on me. It’s more like I moved it to keep the bank mostly constant. I remember very much so that I was very active on the rudder. , like I was taxing.
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It is quite common for students learning crosswinds to put the correct crosswind control inputs in and then take them right back out a few seconds later, then repeat it several more times on final before landing. Some of it likely comes from distractions and not being far enough ahead of the airplane to do everything at once, but I also suspect that some of it goes back to the same thing I mentioned above, where the pilot gets comfortable and thinks they're doing the right thing but subconsciously takes the input back out.

I use similar teaching techniques to your instructor. I'll block a rudder pedal or a control wheel at the point where I feel the minimum acceptable control input is in order to force the student into the idea that they need some aileron and rudder input at all times to make this work.
 
PaulS said:
Stop thinking about it. Rudder keeps you aligned with the runway, aileron keeps you on the runway. That's pretty much it.
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Yes. That is what I do, and how I teach it.

saddletramp said:
One of the biggest errors pilots make is neutralizing the control wheel prior to touchdown.
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Agreed. Once a student understands and accepts that touching down with aileron and rudder deflected and on one main wheel before the other is not only OK, but is the objective, this becomes really easy.

Some taildragger training would help tremendously. A tricycle gear airplane can be quite good at masking the lack of crosswind landing skills. Go train in a taildragger, and what you learn there will be invaluable in tricycle gear airplanes on a windy day.

- Martin
 
jedi93 said:
So I’m having issues landing in winds. Really anything about 15knots. I get crabbing on final, but when I get into ground effect, my brain freezes and I’m stuck trying to remember what aileron to throw in and then it still perplexes my brain to go opposite rudder. I have some great landings with no wind, but having to account for aileron/rudder and then if wind changes having go opposite aileron and then the opposite rudder blows my mind. I’m slowly getting it, but my landings on days like today 20 knot winds and I’m never on centerline. Any tips/suggestions that my CFi might not be getting through to me?
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Chair fly it until you get the muscle memory locked in. Exaggerate. Making airplane noises while doing it is optional.
 
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Trying to kick out of a crab close to the runway and coordinate all the variables is just plain difficult. When I had to really learn crosswind landings, my instructor just had me fly final in a slip, not a crab, from about 100' or higher. Gives you time to sort out the required cross controls before you also have to deal with roundout, flare, and touchdown. In a really strong crosswind, it will also tell you early on if that plane even has enough rudder to handle it.
 
psween said:
Trying to kick out of a crab close to the runway and coordinate all the variables is just plain difficult. When I had to really learn crosswind landings, my instructor just had me fly final in a slip, not a crab, from about 100' or higher. Gives you time to sort out the required cross controls before you also have to deal with roundout, flare, and touchdown. In a really strong crosswind, it will also tell you early on if that plane even has enough rudder to handle it.
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It's not difficult with experience and practice. Extended time in a slip down final is good for giving student pilots time practice the inputs, but with more experience you can graduate past this beginner technique and avoid unnecessary work and passenger discomfort. What the wind is doing several hundred feet up doesn't matter anyway. It will be significantly less at runway height. And it doesn't take too much time to learn how much crab angle is going to lead to a situation where you're nearing the limit of the aircraft's x-wind capability.
 
We get taught to make coordinated turns, keep the ball centered blah blah blah.

Then your instructor teaches you to land in crosswinds, and says now do the exact opposite with the controls.

In time you will learn to do both, depending on the situation. But at first it seems counterintuitive.
 
At 25 hours I wouldn’t worry too much. I’ve seen cfi’s that can’t handle crosswinds.
Where I live in the mountains, we don’t fly with much wind, it gets too turbulent, at least for it to be fun. And the valleys often run the wind down the runway.
I don’t feel like I’m that great at crosswinds at 800 hours, but landed Sunday evening with 18g28 at 40 degrees off the runway. It was intense, but the plane is still straight. My highest crosswind ever was 13g27 at 80 degrees off the runway. Times like that you really learn, or bend metal.
 
Rgbeard said:
Oh - and how's it feel when you've landed super-slick-like-you-know-what-you're-doing in gusty-cross-windy-ohmigosh-can-I-do-this-whatthehell-am-I-doing? @RyanB to the courtesy phone for a description of that, please.
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I flew to Olive Branch last month on what was quite the day to be flying. Once I dipped below 4000ft, the ride began - fasten your seatbelts, we’ve got a rough road ahead - ATIS was reporting winds blowing over 25 with consistent gusts over 30-35 and low level wind shear advisories in effect (loss of 10kts on final). I got the weather and prepared for the descent, Memphis approach hands me off to Olive Branch tower and they direct me to enter a left base for one-eight, confirmed the low level wind shear advisory to still be in effect and advised they’d be giving wind reports during my approach and that it was not necessary to answer them. I’m getting tossed around a good bit and I may or may not have been a little white knuckled for part of it. As I’m coming down final, tower advises of the wind speed and gusts, something like 200@25G35. I’m usually at 65ktias on final, this time I was more like 80kias. I use two notches of flaps and carry some extra speed down short final. Round out, bleed off the energy just over the runway and dipping the right wing into the wind. Mind you, I’m exercising all three controls simultaneously… “hold it off, hold it off, dip the wing a hair more”… The wheels touchdown and power comes to idle, with controls positioned correctly for the prevailing winds. Tower gives the exit and taxi instructions and just like that, I just completed one of the toughest approach and landings in my prior eight years of flying. The Archer handles windy conditions like a champ, far better than the Cessna’s do.
jedi93 said:
So I’m having issues landing in winds. Really anything about 15knots.
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Kids play! ;)

It takes the right balance of rudder and aileron to stop the drift, hold the proper bank angle and maintain centerline as you touch down. There’s really no good solution other than going out and putting yourself in the fire. As pilots, we learn by doing, knowledge can be studied and read, but skills take practice and time to develop. Wait for a good, windy day, the kind where your hat gets blown off your head and go fly with an instructor. Practice - Practice - Practice. . .
 
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