Landing practice duration/frequency?

David Harrison

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cmudave1125
Quick question: When staying in the pattern to work touch and goes, how many landings do you generally do in a single lessons? Yesterday evening we had a fairly (for me) challenging day with winds 13 gusting 20 about 20 degrees left of center. I used 1.1 hours and was ready to call it a day.
Ended up with 6 touch & goes, 2 go arounds and 1 full stop landing.
My question is this: When working on a critical skill (such as windy day/crosswind landing) is it better to spend more time in a single session (~2.0 hours) once every 6 days or so, or (as I have been doing) is it better to keep lessons shorter but more frequent (1-1.2 hrs once every 4 days)? Thoughts?
 
Shorter and more frequent. Those last attempts when you are exhausted have value but...

Flying everyday is best of all but it’s not very efficient relative to everything else in life.


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When I'm working on take offs and landings with a pre solo student, I found that for touch and goes (what I mostly use for more intense initial training) it's 1 t&g per .1, that's pretty much on the money in most all planes doing closed traffic t&gs.

If the lesson is landing work, I normally won't consider it a full flight unless we can hammer out at least 10, normally I'll do well over that.
 
1.1 sounds good. 2 in the pattern I think is just too much.
 
As a licensed pilot? Whatever you feel like you need. Student pilots will vary but if I'm with a SP doing T&Gs (always a GA or two thrown in) I keep it to an hour, or even less if the student is ****ing up every landing and getting frustrated.
 
More frequent, and more focused.

Though I’m wondering if doing it when you’re past your prime is actually good practice and a demonstration that it’s becoming ingrained since you’re losing focus.

I was worn out after 6 to 11 depending on the situation. I’m older (was 49 at the time).
 
What kind of plane? And does that matter? My CFI told me when he was checking me out in the club 182 that these planes aren’t trainers and it’s not good for them to be doing tight pattern work with repetitive t&g’s. He would suggest going out to the local VOR and come back with goal to cruise a bit more. Or go airport hopping.
 
If you’re feeling fatigued and frustrated than it’s time to call it a day. You’ll make a lot more mistakes, making yourself feel even more tired. Bag it and go home.
 
What kind of plane? And does that matter? My CFI told me when he was checking me out in the club 182 that these planes aren’t trainers and it’s not good for them to be doing tight pattern work with repetitive t&g’s. He would suggest going out to the local VOR and come back with goal to cruise a bit more. Or go airport hopping.

Lol, sounds like maybe he's mentally wishing the 182 was more than it really is, it's a really just a slightly larger 172 with a CS prop, stay on the pattern all day or not, really doesn't matter to the plane.
 
I usually never did more than 3 or 4 landings at a time while training before going to work on something else. We would usually take off, go work on something, then go do 3 or 4 landings, leave the pattern and work on something else enroute to another airport, do some more pattern work, then work on something else on the way back home. I think it was helpful, if most of a set of landings were good a student can move on to the next thing feeling pretty good about themselves, if they weren't so good you might as well break it off and focus on something else before it snowballs. I do live in an area with many small airports relatively close together so while this approach works here there are places that it wouldn't work as well.
 
Lol, sounds like maybe he's mentally wishing the 182 was more than it really is, it's a really just a slightly larger 172 with a CS prop, stay on the pattern all day or not, really doesn't matter to the plane.
He probably wears four stripes on his shoulders when he flies it too! :)
 
Not to derail your thread but what kind of a plane and how long was the runway?

Sure seems that, with 15 to 20 kt headwind component, in a 172 or cherokee or similar, and 3,000' or more runway, you would have ample runway length, learn far more, be a lot less hurried and less frustrated by doing stop-n-goes instead of touch-n-goes.

Depending on exactly where you are in your training of course.

But then, everyone here knows that I hate TnGs on a normal day, much less a windy day. They instill bad habits IMO.

My primary instructor refused to use them. Then again, HRO was 6,000' and then, once I soloed, we moved to 4M1 which was still 3,500'.
 
Lol, sounds like maybe he's mentally wishing the 182 was more than it really is, it's a really just a slightly larger 172 with a CS prop, stay on the pattern all day or not, really doesn't matter to the plane.

Thread drift-
Airframe maybe, but wonder how much additional wear and tear there is on a big bore engine (vs a dinky 150/152 engine) going from wide open to idle a dozen times in the pattern. I do it with my 182/io470 but wonder how much engine longevity I’m giving up. Oh well.
 
What kind of plane? And does that matter? My CFI told me when he was checking me out in the club 182 that these planes aren’t trainers and it’s not good for them to be doing tight pattern work with repetitive t&g’s. He would suggest going out to the local VOR and come back with goal to cruise a bit more. Or go airport hopping.
PA-28-161, so it is a fairly typical trainer. It is usually up for around 4-5 hours/day.

I like the suggestion to go out and cruise more. In my case I'm in a fairly unique situation as I am doing my primary training in the Warrior, but I also fly Observer in CAP and have the opportunity to fly (just not land) when on training or actual missions. For example, I had an Air Defense exercise last week with a pilot who flew for the first two legs (including the exercise area) and then after refueling had me fly the 140 nautical miles from KIPT back to KBTP. On Saturday I flew a short training mission in the local area, about 70 nautical miles and three airports. On these flights I am in a 182 with the G1000, so it is different. I also navigate using the VOR and GPS on the G1000, which is great experience.
 
Not to derail your thread but what kind of a plane and how long was the runway?

Sure seems that, with 15 to 20 kt headwind component, in a 172 or cherokee or similar, and 3,000' or more runway, you would have ample runway length, learn far more, be a lot less hurried and less frustrated by doing stop-n-goes instead of touch-n-goes.

Depending on exactly where you are in your training of course.

But then, everyone here knows that I hate TnGs on a normal day, much less a windy day. They instill bad habits IMO.

My primary instructor refused to use them. Then again, HRO was 6,000' and then, once I soloed, we moved to 4M1 which was still 3,500'.

PA-28-161, almost 4801ft runway. I am about a month into training. I have more time that is not logged from flying with CAP - not with a CFI so it doesn't count towards instruction received, but helps with cross-country planning and in-flight navigation.
 
Quick question: When staying in the pattern to work touch and goes, how many landings do you generally do in a single lessons? Yesterday evening we had a fairly (for me) challenging day with winds 13 gusting 20 about 20 degrees left of center. I used 1.1 hours and was ready to call it a day.
Ended up with 6 touch & goes, 2 go arounds and 1 full stop landing.
My question is this: When working on a critical skill (such as windy day/crosswind landing) is it better to spend more time in a single session (~2.0 hours) once every 6 days or so, or (as I have been doing) is it better to keep lessons shorter but more frequent (1-1.2 hrs once every 4 days)? Thoughts?


Some where in the 1.2-1.5 range seems to work students. 2 hours is much too long.
 
1.1 sounds good. 2 in the pattern I think is just too much.

You really should build your own airport that way you would be the only person in the pattern and no one would be conducting low approaches.
 
Quick question: When staying in the pattern to work touch and goes, how many landings do you generally do in a single lessons?
4 to 6 landings in the pattern is my sweet spot. More than 6 landings in a row I think you start getting tired and there is little value in grinding through it (heck, may even be detrimental). 3 or less you haven't really had much chance to get in a groove and work on some improvements items

I haven't done pattern work in probably a year, but typically on my fourth T&G I would ask for the option for the next landings. If I liked the 5th landing then I would call it a day... if I didn't then I would do one more and make that 6th landing my last

If the pattern gets crazy busy then I would also call it a day.. if I'm extending downwind each time and doing 360s then I'm just burning $$ and not getting much landing value out of it. Sure, there is value in learning to work with a busy pattern, but if I'm extending downwind and doing 2 right 360s then I'm making that last one a full stop
 
Depends on what you focused on, and what issue you are addressing. To many unknown variables to answer.
What exactly are you practicing about the landing? The flare? The approach? All of it? what is the concentration level/focus? Are you tired from other things in the day? Tired at the end of the lesson? Are you making new/old or increasing mistakes?

Tim
 
Thread drift-
Airframe maybe, but wonder how much additional wear and tear there is on a big bore engine (vs a dinky 150/152 engine) going from wide open to idle a dozen times in the pattern. I do it with my 182/io470 but wonder how much engine longevity I’m giving up. Oh well.

Drop zones punish them much harder than that and still make TBO
 
Don't spend 2 hours in the pattern. We controllers have books to read, forums to comment on and movies to watch. Go someplace else for pattern work.

rofl, one tower said cleared to land as many times as needed. Just announce each turn or when on the last one unless he directed otherwise. I manged to get about four laps self announcing before someone else came in and he had to give a few more directions.

Tim
 
Don't spend 2 hours in the pattern. We controllers have books to read, forums to comment on and movies to watch. Go someplace else for pattern work.
Lol. I can see that getting old.
BTP (my home airport) is a non-towered field, so we just keep head on a swivel and communicate on CTAF.
 
Quick question: When staying in the pattern to work touch and goes, how many landings do you generally do in a single lessons? Yesterday evening we had a fairly (for me) challenging day with winds 13 gusting 20 about 20 degrees left of center. I used 1.1 hours and was ready to call it a day.
Ended up with 6 touch & goes, 2 go arounds and 1 full stop landing.
My question is this: When working on a critical skill (such as windy day/crosswind landing) is it better to spend more time in a single session (~2.0 hours) once every 6 days or so, or (as I have been doing) is it better to keep lessons shorter but more frequent (1-1.2 hrs once every 4 days)? Thoughts?
During my primary training when we had a day like this it was "crosswind training day". No more than an hour. After that, your palms are sweaty and you are beat up. Sounds about like what you did. You'll appreciate this training some day. Now I'll use a day like this and do circuits until I get it right. Might take 3- 6 attempts to get two really good ones in a row. More than that, and it won't get better. Do it again some other day.
 
I've done that too. "Multiple ops approved. I'll let you know if the wind changes significantly."

This reminds of one of the training days when I did 14 Landings, after I took off the 15th time tower called to ask ... how many more T&G are you planning? I chuckled and said this is the last one. I could hear him go off mike and say something like thank Zeus
 
Pattern work usually goes according to a predictable pattern for me:

Landing #1 is mediocre and I think "I can do better."
Landings #2 and #3 are awesome and I think "I am great at this!!"
Landing #4 is so terrible I think I might have to move away and change my name. I think "Well, I need at least ONE more good one, for redemption..."
I spend landings #5, #6, and #7 seeking redemption, but not really getting any better.
I make #8 a full stop, wondering whoever thought it was a good idea to give me this certificate in the first place.

So the correct answer is 3, if you're smart.
Otherwise it's 8.
:)
 
I bought my plane and hadn't flown a tailwheel before so a CFI friend of mine went with me to get it. We stopped at his airport on the way home to drop him off. I did 101 takeoffs/landings that day in 4 separate flights. Kinda got old after awhile but I was fairly comfortable after that.
 
This reminds of one of the training days when I did 14 Landings, after I took off the 15th time tower called to ask ... how many more T&G are you planning? I chuckled and said this is the last one. I could hear him go off mike and say something like thank Zeus

Something else that people don't realize when they stay in the pattern forever. Controllers sometimes work alone and are humans who need potty breaks.
 
Something else that people don't realize when they stay in the pattern forever. Controllers sometimes work alone and are humans who need potty breaks.
good point. I know for sure at times its the same guy who is handling Tower and Ground, not sure about Approach. so legit question on this scenario.... say you are the only controller and you need to go, and you do and while you are away someone barged into Delta... for a 24 hr operation, I am guessing there is someone - a sup, someone just there hanging around etc available to assist whoever barged into the airspace?

nonetheless good point on just going around in circles, I can always do that at a non-towered field
 
If a controller is working alone, they ARE a supervisor. Alone, means alone...like nobody else there alone. I work class C, not Delta. "Barging" into class Delta isn't as big a deal as barging into Class C and even that isn't punishable by death.
 
The day before my CR I stayed in the pattern for 2.5 hours and did 19 landings (T&Gs, full stops, short approaches, soft f, short f, no-flap). I did not realize how long I was up there until I was back at the school writing down hobbs/tach times. I did not actually feel tired until I got into my car and sat down.
I know now, that on that day I was pumped up due to the CR but nowadays I don't do that many landings, I usually stop around 7-8.
During my early training I could handle 4-5 before getting totally exhausted, and during later part we would do 8-9 per lesson.

I think shorter / more frequent lessons are better.
 
When I go up solely for the purpose of working on landings, I include another nearby airport. I don't think multiple times around a pattern with the same familiar visual cues and checkpoints (downwind along the highway, base at the Walmart) does as much for improving quality as getting back to basics of doing them at a less familiar location. I might do 2-3 at the remote location and then come back for a full stop. I don't see an enormous value to much more than that. If they are good, they are good. If they aren't, it's just going to get frustrating.
 
What kind of plane? And does that matter? My CFI told me when he was checking me out in the club 182 that these planes aren’t trainers and it’s not good for them to be doing tight pattern work with repetitive t&g’s. He would suggest going out to the local VOR and come back with goal to cruise a bit more. Or go airport hopping.

That’s silly. If you need takeoff and landing work in a 182, do it. Plowing along in cruise isn’t going to fix bad landings.

Anyway... to the OP’s question...

Most students shut down as they fatigue and aren’t learning anything new anyway after some point in time. Whether that’s 20 minutes, 40 minutes, an hour, or two, isn’t really the measuring stick. Whether or not they’re still focused and learning is.

There’s SOME value in doing a FEW landings a bit fatigued because someday you’ll have a long long day on a trip and you’ll arrive at the destination a tad too tired than you should have allowed yourself to be, and the unforecast heavy gusting crosswind will have arrived five minutes before you got there. So yeah. You need a little bit of practice in how to wake yourself up, and get yourself fully focused for the task at hand.

But generally, if you’re fatigued you’re not learning anything anyway. You’re probably just repeating the same mistakes over and over. Park it and call it a day.

Additionally, the comments about using full stop taxi-backs or stop and goes where runway distance permits and you’re comfortable with the engine out options at the departure end, are solid. Not because they’ll help with fatigue, but you have time to think and process between each landing more.

If you’re really working out a landing slump or problem, stopping and taxiing back and maybe even making yourself talk out loud through the last landing and analyzing it, maybe even using the extra time to keep a little scoresheet on your knee board with stuff like “airspeed” “directional control” “control placement after touchdown” etc, can show a pattern problem or show improvement to help keep your head in the game.

Making anything into a game can get the thinking side of your brain interested instead of just plodding through the motions by rote and letting the brain wander off thinking about other things.

Heck, bet yourself things. “If I can get this down and stopped with a short field landing by X, I can call it quits and I get to go have a Coke from the fridge.” Whatever floats your boat.

If you hit a point where you’ve run out of ideas to keep it interesting and can’t see any improvement, you’re saturated or distracted. Call it. Or do something to wake yourself back up. Like @midlifeflyer said, maybe head to a nearby different airport to change up the sight picture. Something.

Otherwise, if you’re not focused and interested, you’re already done, you just haven’t taxied in yet. Park it.

I’ve gone out to do a few landings and work on something and two landings in I decided my brain wasn’t in it today, and called it quits.

I’ve also had two hour marathons doing power off 180s picking different spots, forcing different configurations of the aircraft (instead of letting the flight path dictate them, example, full flaps from start to finish) where everything was firing on all cylinders and I was progressing and enjoying it. (Only a few days of that total though, those are butt kicker sessions because you WILL be worn out after a solid workout like that.)

Whether to call it or keep working on something specific is really practice in assessing your own state of alertness, focus, goal-setting, and skill progression. That applies for pattern work as well as any other training or proficiency flying.

I’m sure the aerobatics folk here who practice for competition or just proficiency agree... some days you’re just not up to the game. Other days, a long session results in a lot of progress or even some epiphany about your techniques or common mistakes that you can use to fix it forever.
 
I usually do between 10 to 12 plus the full stop, last time it was 15 knot crosswind and was tough keep plane from weather vanning. After that round I was pretty drained mentally and physically, was 1.5 in the book.
 
Couple of thoughts. (proviso, I trained at an untowered airport with moderate traffic)
1. You're the pilot so you call 'end of day' when you're done. Some days you're in the zone and doing great...other days, not so much. I pretty much called the day off when I got to the point I wasn't learning or progressing. That point can be driven by how you're feeling, the winds, and traffic. End the day when it's time. Part of your job as PIC is to know when to say when.
2. One day after several unfulfilling/frustrating days of (mostly bad) crosswind landings, I had my CFI fly and just talk through what he was thinking and doing; kind of returning to Landings 101. It gave me a chance to get some understanding of how to think about the landings AND see that some of his landings kinda sucked too. After about 4 laps around the field, he asked if I wanted to take over, I did, and stuck some of my best crosswind landings ever. The take-away, you're paying for the training so don't be afraid to ask to try something different.
3. Now that I have my Sport Pilot Cert, I try to fly 2 days a week. Day 1 is a mini-checkride with all the types of T/O and landings and maneuvers (less engine out, flight center doesn't allow them). Day 2 is a cross-country hitting at least 2 airfields to full stop. Doing this type of flying solo is not the same as with a CFI and I feel it's helping me develop good habits and be better at pilotage and dead reckoning.
 
I'll do t&g at a KRNO where I am based. It's a long pattern because of the 11,000' runway and 6-7 seems about my limit... or when the tower gets sick of me. :D
 
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