Landing funk

orange

orange

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Orange
I have had my PPL for almost a year, I have about 500 total landings, and my last 3 have been literally the worst of all.

My Aug 21 flight, I did 6 touch and goes, 5 were good, but the last one I did a 3 bouncer (small bounces) for the first time ever.

Then on Aug 28, landing at KBAF for the fly-in, I had a big bounce to where I had to put in power to not bend the plane when it came back down, came back down soft and one more tiny bounce and I rolled out. I doubt anybody saw it since the terminal/restaurant is closer to the departure end of RWY 20.:oops: Then after the fly-in, landing at home airport, did another 3 bouncer.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not landing with the nose wheel first. I think that I'm rounding out too high and I just drop and with maybe a lit too much forward speed and too much vertical speed, I'm bouncing. Any suggestions?

I was starting to grease most of my landings for a while, but then I started flying less often (once a month). I'm pretty sure that has a lot to do with it. I think I'm gonna go up with a CFI for an hour just to straighten myself out.
 
orange said:
I have had my PPL for almost a year, I have about 500 total landings, and my last 3 have been literally the worst of all.

My Aug 21 flight, I did 6 touch and goes, 5 were good, but the last one I did a 3 bouncer (small bounces) for the first time ever.

Then on Aug 28, landing at KBAF for the fly-in, I had a big bounce to where I had to put in power to not bend the plane when it came back down, came back down soft and one more tiny bounce and I rolled out. I doubt anybody saw it since the terminal/restaurant is closer to the departure end of RWY 20.:oops: Then after the fly-in, landing at home airport, did another 3 bouncer.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not landing with the nose wheel first. I think that I'm rounding out too high and I just drop and with maybe a lit too much forward speed and too much vertical speed, I'm bouncing. Any suggestions?

I was starting to grease most of my landings for a while, but then I started flying less often (once a month). I'm pretty sure that has a lot to do with it. I think I'm gonna go up with a CFI for an hour just to straighten myself out.
Click to expand...


Good landings are slow landings. Get used to seeing the ASI at 1.2 Vsi as you cross the threshold. Too much forward speed is a bad thing. Other than that, "the flare" and subsequent touchdown have been the subject of many YouTube videos and discussions in the aviation forums. Do some searching and reading.

Bob Gardner
 
Shortly after I got my PP cert, I took a friend from work for a $100 hamburger. I flared perfectly, just 2' high. Worst landing I ever made (so far) with a witness. :oops: For me, landing skills come and go seemingly without reason. Nothing that bends the airplane (so far), but enough to either require a go-around or just a nasty thump or skitter. And then I'll grease a couple and think "Now I've got it."

There are 3 secrets to making a perfect landing. No one knows what they are.

John
 
orange said:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not landing with the nose wheel first. I think that I'm rounding out too high and I just drop and with maybe a lit too much forward speed and too much vertical speed, I'm bouncing. Any suggestions?

I think I'm gonna go up with a CFI for an hour just to straighten myself out.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you already know what you're doing wrong. Flaring high and excess speed could certainly be a cause. Are you looking down the runway towards the departure end? Or are you looking nearly straight down? Looking at least a third or more down the runway length give you a better perspective of where you are in the round out. If you're a little high, momentarily freeze what you have which will slow you a little and then as you 'sink' gradually increase the back pressure. If you think you're going to hit 'firmly', do as you did and add a bit of power, or go around. Probably wouldn't be a waste of time if you did go up with a CFI.
 
It happens... I've been in a similar funk for the past month. And I'm a 1,500 hour pilot with 1,000 hours in the type I now fly (Mooney).

Bob Gardner is right about good landings being slow landings. My recent bad ones have been too fast for a couple of interesting reasons. I'm based in Denver and am used to high ground speeds (relative to sea level) on final. When I was landing at sea level strips last month I was watching my airspeed on final the way you're supposed to but the sight picture of moving so much slower over the ground caused me to subconsciously add more speed. I kicked that habit after a couple of landings, though. The other issue I have is that I'm often landing in gusty conditions at high density altitudes, so I carry an extra 5 knots or so on final and I don't always do a good job of bleeding it off in the flare.

Just keep at it and don't get discouraged. This too shall pass.
 
I'm in the same boat 250 hours and I finally did my first go around last week. Did 4 landings all bounced. Flying a 172 came in at 60 mph flared as normal turned into bounce city though.
 
falconkidding said:
I'm in the same boat 250 hours and I finally did my first go around last week. Did 4 landings all bounced. Flying a 172 came in at 60 mph flared as normal turned into bounce city though.
Click to expand...

:eek: Your CFI didn't have you do go arounds during training?
 
I never had any problem landing a Funk?
 
orange said:
Then on Aug 28, landing at KBAF for the fly-in, I had a big bounce to where I had to put in power to not bend the plane when it came back down, came back down soft and one more tiny bounce and I rolled out. I doubt anybody saw it since the terminal/restaurant is closer to the departure end of RWY 20.:oops:
Click to expand...

John had a zoom lense... but, uh, we didn't notice a thing... ;)

More seriously, I'm having similar issues. Went from making rockstar landings to continuously flaring too high. A few laps with my CFI seemed to help last week, but I'll find out tomorrow if I can pull it off solo.

You'll get your landings back.

And we'll delete the pictures ;)
 
Grab an instructor for a few T&Gs and have him/her observe? For ~$50?

You don't know what you don't know.

Maybe more of a slump than a funk? :)
 
The CFI certainly won't hurt.

Bad streaks seem to happen. It seems the best way to stop them is to go up and practice. But, not touch'n'goes. Full stops. You don't want to be looking past the landing while trying to land. Also use a variety of runway sizes. I found at one point that I could grease a 6000 foot runway every time, but 2400 feet resulted in a "firm" landing. I figured out that I was playing head games with myself and touching down before I was really ready on the shorter runway, in a misguided attempt to make the second turn-off. The fix was to just aim for the last turn-off and eat the longer taxi (2400 feet really isn't that long anyway).

Oddly, I didn't have the usual landing funk associated with instrument training. I did a fair amount of VFR flying as well during that time. But they did go to hell shortly after.
 
Don't feel like you have to force a landing. That's how metal is bent. I always tell my students to go into every landing thinking they're going to go around.
 
Both Mary and I went through stretches where our landings sucked, right around the 500 hour mark.

I don't know what the significance is of 500 hours, but it happened. Eventually you work through it.

In my case, I had to remind myself to look waaaay down to the end of the runway, and not at my touchdown aiming point. That allowed me to feather it in again, rather than arriving like a load of sand. YMMV.
 
Well I wasn't going to bring it up out of courtesy to Mr. Orange- he seemed like a nice guy and I didn't want to embarrass him. But since he brought it up....


I happened to get a video of the landing, it was a little worse than described....


So he walked out of that, ate his sandwich, drank his orange juice, then rented an FBO plane to get home, when this happened....



So overall it was a tough day for our friend Mr. Orange. Well except the orange juice...
 
colojo said:
My recent bad ones have been too fast for a couple of interesting reasons. I'm based in Denver and am used to high ground speeds (relative to sea level) on final. When I was landing at sea level strips last month I was watching my airspeed on final the way you're supposed to but the sight picture of moving so much slower over the ground caused me to subconsciously add more speed. I kicked that habit after a couple of landings, though. and don't get discouraged. This too shall pass.
Click to expand...

I've also hit that "trap for young players" as one Internet celebrity electrical engineer uses for a tag line.

Soooooooo slowwwwwww out the window... Looks scary. Hahaha.

It takes conscious effort not to push the throttle up.
 
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I don't land by the numbers, and I don't land at minimum speeds. I save that for my monthly brush up practice flights. The rest of the time, I land with a bit of power and simply fly it down to the runway, backing off on the power as I flare. I may be landing 5-10kts fast, but I generally grease them every time. And when I have my wife on board, she's more impressed with the smoothness of the landing than she is by how close my airspeed is to what the POH recommends. Of course, I rarely land on runways less than 4,000ft long, and usually they're more like 8-10k long.

I see landing as slow as possible as a skill that should be refreshed in case you need it in an emergency. And in such situations, I don't particularly care if I don't grease it. I just want to get down.

Find a groove that works for you, and your usual load. Don't worry so much about the numbers. Conditions are constantly changing anyway. Landing is an art, not a science.

*Puts on helmet and ducks*
 
jsstevens said:
Shortly after I got my PP cert, I took a friend from work for a $100 hamburger. I flared perfectly, just 2' high. Worst landing I ever made (so far) with a witness. :oops: For me, landing skills come and go seemingly without reason. Nothing that bends the airplane (so far), but enough to either require a go-around or just a nasty thump or skitter. And then I'll grease a couple and think "Now I've got it."

There are 3 secrets to making a perfect landing. No one knows what they are.

John
Click to expand...
Perfect! Now I have an answer to give my wife next time I bounce one...thanks!
 
I have been flying TW a bit this summer about 21 hours in a J5 and about 80 landings. I am about 1 not so great landing for every two or three good ones. When I say not to great, I have a tendency to flare a little high (a few feet) then the bottom drops out on me and I mush it in getting small bounces. As long as I keep the stick in my gut and my feet moving these are no big deal.

I need to constantly remind myself to try to fly as close as I can to the runway and just keep easing back (not too fast) until the stick is in my gut. I have tried lots of things, making sure I am looking down the runway or carrying just a touch of power to reduce the rate of descent (some of those landings have been quite nice). Still lots to learn. Think I may go out again tonight.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Both Mary and I went through stretches where our landings sucked, right around the 500 hour mark.

I don't know what the significance is of 500 hours, but it happened. Eventually you work through it.

In my case, I had to remind myself to look waaaay down to the end of the runway, and not at my touchdown aiming point. That allowed me to feather it in again, rather than arriving like a load of sand. YMMV.
Click to expand...

I don't know much, and driving a car is a lot easier than flying/landing, but I do remember reading that a similar thing often happens statistically with new drivers. They do fine, up until a certain amount of time and then are ripe for an accident. Explanations that were given, when you get your license you pay a lot of attention to driving correctly, then feel "I got this" and get too comfortable and start relaxing too much. My own driving, I did get in an accident after in around that timeframe, making a left turn that was legal, but in retrospect I should have waited, it wasn't worth the risk. I was 16. I'm now 59 and I swear anytime I get the impulse to make a left turn and incoming traffic is close enough that I feel a "warning" feeling I pay attention and think "it's not worth the risk...wait until it's clear". Of course, in a landing it is all real time and you can't just decide to wait...you are committed up to the point where either you land or go around. Things happen quickly.

Driving a car is a piece of cake compared to landings with all the variables at play. But I wonder if occasionally when one gets to feeling "I got this" (which you kind of have to also, but it has to be justified) it might be that dynamic at play. I'm guessing too, after many successful landings it might be harder to "admit" that a go around is the best course of action. Maybe especially the first time on should go around?

Do any of you also lose the sighting on level banks from time to time? I'm curious about this, being a newbie.
 
orange said:
My Aug 21 flight, I did 6 touch and goes, 5 were good, but the last one I did a 3 bouncer (small bounces) for the first time ever.
Click to expand...

One trick I was taught was when doing pattern work, NEVER make a bad one be your last one. Those things will rattle around in your brain and feed on your confidence. As long as you're not exhausted or need to be done for some other reason, take the ~6 minutes to go back around and prove to yourself that you can do better. (I've gone to the airport planning to do 6 and ended up doing 14, because 6-12 were bad and I wanted two good ones in a row before I left.)

Then, instead if that last bad landing rattling around in your head, you'll be able to think "Man, I really botched that second to last one... but then came back with a greaser to make up for it!"
 
Rykymus said:
I don't land by the numbers, and I don't land at minimum speeds. I save that for my monthly brush up practice flights. The rest of the time, I land with a bit of power and simply fly it down to the runway, backing off on the power as I flare. I may be landing 5-10kts fast, but I generally grease them every time. And when I have my wife on board, she's more impressed with the smoothness of the landing than she is by how close my airspeed is to what the POH recommends. Of course, I rarely land on runways less than 4,000ft long, and usually they're more like 8-10k long.

I see landing as slow as possible as a skill that should be refreshed in case you need it in an emergency. And in such situations, I don't particularly care if I don't grease it. I just want to get down.

Find a groove that works for you, and your usual load. Don't worry so much about the numbers. Conditions are constantly changing anyway. Landing is an art, not a science.

*Puts on helmet and ducks*
Click to expand...

Not going to pick on you too hard, but remember that's one of the classic set-ups for "loss of control" on the ground if something happens to the gear.

You'll hit whatever is in the ditch going faster than necessary and force squares...

More injuries... It's gonna hurt a lot more even 10 knots faster, so to speak.

"Pilot failed to maintain directional control during landing." :)

Not picking too hard because I've done it too, I'll admit it. But I've "seen the light", on at least making an attempt to land, at the slowest possible speed, whenever possible.

mjburian said:
One trick I was taught was when doing pattern work, NEVER make a bad one be your last one. Those things will rattle around in your brain and feed on your confidence. As long as you're not exhausted or need to be done for some other reason, take the ~6 minutes to go back around and prove to yourself that you can do better. (I've gone to the airport planning to do 6 and ended up doing 14, because 6-12 were bad and I wanted two good ones in a row before I left.)

Then, instead if that last bad landing rattling around in your head, you'll be able to think "Man, I really botched that second to last one... but then came back with a greaser to make up for it!"
Click to expand...

There's a lot of study of that in physical motion disciplines and many trainers and coaches teach it. Whether it works or not I've never seen a proper study, but many swear by it. Goes hand in hand with "never practice doing it wrong".
 
denverpilot said:
Not going to pick on you too hard, but remember that's one of the classic set-ups for "loss of control" on the ground if something happens to the gear.

You'll hit whatever is in the ditch going faster than necessary and force squares...

More injuries... It's gonna hurt a lot more even 10 knots faster, so to speak.

"Pilot failed to maintain directional control during landing." :)
Click to expand...

Ditto on the above.

The chances of an extra 10 kts being a problem on any given landing are very small. But every year we'll read dozens of landing accident reports where speed was a factor, increasing the damage and injury substantially over the kind of landing every Private Pilot applicant had to be proficient in - landing at approximately stall speed.

And I'll add that for most small GA planes, power on the landing is a crutch - a bandaid to cover up a lack of, or deterioration of, basic landing skills.

But this is a recurring topic, and for the most part never the twain shall meet.

Back on point, in my experience when landings start to be a problem, it's from looking too far down the runway, which makes it harder to judge height.
 
FastEddieB said:
Back on point, in my experience when landings start to be a problem, it's from looking too far down the runway, which makes it harder to judge height.
Click to expand...


Personally I have the opposite problem. If I pull a captain kangaroo it's usually because I'm looking too close.

I've also found that the power management on approach varies with propeller/engine rigging when flying turboprops.
 
FAA take:

7954777752_a63a8b345a_z.jpg
 
I have thousands of landings and I still can't tell you exactly where I look during landing. Learning in and mostly flying tailwheel, peripheral vision is just as important as direct vision. I don't think there is any specific place or places to look. One must learn to pick up visual cues through full range of vision. Staring straight ahead all the time is why many folks cannot seem to land on the centerline.

All other reasoning aside, this is one aspect where tailwheel training helps improve landings. It is hard to learn when you have unrestricted forward visibility.

That's my opinion...and it is worth what you paid for it.


This space intentionally left blank for future sarcasm.
 
N3368K said:
I have thousands of landings and I still can't tell you exactly where I look during landing.
Click to expand...

From somewhere:

A study performed by engineering students associated with the University of
Michigan Flyers in the early 1970s in which a device that measured eye movement was
placed on the heads of pilots who were making good landings agreed with the
recommendations of this article. At that time a lot of instructors were stressing that the
student should look well down the runway in the flare. When those same instructors wore
the device that measured their eye movements and where they were looking, it was found
that they focused near the left edge of the runway, about 200 feet ahead of the airplane.
 
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