Landing flare and roundout

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RomeoSierra

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Romeo Sierra
Hi,

So I’ve currently just finished lesson 5 and today we spent nearly all of the lesson on just landings. I was doing them ok yesterday but today I really sucked at them, except at a practice of an emergency landing simulating an engine out which I did quite well, and probably one of my best landings to date.

Anyway, my problem seems to be flaring too late, I can’t quite judge when to round out and when to flare and my CFI has to keep taking over or helping out at last minute. I’ve seen some tips online about trying to just fly in ground effect for a little bit first before flaring but my CFI seems to want to flare right away and not glide level at first which makes me feel rushed and then flare too much as have too high an airspeed or I’m not flaring enough.

So question is, any tips on learning when to flare and is it ok to glide a little at level attitude once in ground effect to get ready for flare? I’m flying a Sportcruiser which lands in hardly any distance so running out of runway is absolutely no issue.

Thanks
 
One way to help the issue with flaring too late is to shift your eyes down the runway as you reduce power and increase aft elevator pressure. As you begin to reduce power, simultaneously add back pressure and look down the runway as you see the runway width start to increase in your field of vision. Continue adding back pressure into the flare and hold that pitch attitude/sight picture until the plane stops flying. A bit of glide/float is fine and with proper airspeed control on final it shouldn't be a problem. Of course, excessive floating means too high an airspeed. Ultimately all of this comes with practice and it's completely normal to take quite a few lessons (took me long enough during my ppl lol) to get this down as it is one of, if not the, hardest thing for student pilots to master.

Hope this helps and welcome to POA.
 
it takes time, you're only at lesson 5. agree with looking further down the runway, 'level out', then try to keep it of the runway.
 

A short Jason Schappert video. He's got a bunch of them about landings on Youtube, including a 2 hour webinar.
 
Yeah, don't "round out" or "flare".

Come in on final with your sight picture locked, use a area just before where you want to touch down, it shouldn't move in your windshield, if it gets low you're too high and vise versa, --> don't be afraid to slip <--

Once you're a few feet over that point, runway assured, pull the power, look all the way down the runway to the point that moves the least, think of those paintings of a road with power lines at both ends, how they disappear into one infinity point, look at that.

Now with the power out, try to fly down the runway to that infinity point holding the plane 6" off the deck, keep holding her off, once the mains touch, keep flying the plane to that point till she's slowed to a speed of a brisk jog, don't just let go of the back force and prang that flimsey nose gear down.

Once you get low over the runway, remeber it's alerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it pointing down the runway.

Lastly, imagine the yoke has a ratchet on it, once you pull back when you're down low you can't put the stick forward again, if it starts to sink just burp in a little power.


A good landing will have the stall horn going off just after you transition from your landing target to flying to the infinity point.



These things should NOT be a laundry list of steps, it's one fluidic thing, don't strap into the plane, strap the plane onto you.


And remember
--> don't be afraid to slip <--
 
If your seat height is adjustable try putting it down a bit. That will force you to look further down the runway. It might help. It’s what I do and works (usually.)
 
This is one of those topics where text advice doesn’t do very much. You have to just go out and do trial and error with the CFI.

It’s all about sight picture and judging the distance you are from the surface. Keep at it!
 
Also doing a bunch of low passes is a good call before you work on actually doing touch and goes
 
Target fixation. You are looking where you are planning to land, instead when you are getting close, and before you think you are, shift your view to the far end of the runway. Race car drivers don’t look at the road in the turn, they look at the turn exit and beyond. Look far away, helps wit alignment, and you’ll pick up the height above the runway in the periphery.
 
This comes up periodically.

My take is one should be looking to the side and maybe 30’ to 50’ ahead of the plane, moving that point closer as the plane slows down.

I’m of the firm opinion that trying to look at the far end of the runway is a bad idea.

The FAA take:

7954777752_a63a8b345a_z.jpg
 
For me, looking at the far end of runway absolutely did not work, due to what Eddie describes above. 30-50 feet didn't work either; too close. For me, looking out one or two stripes, or about 200-400 feet, was the right perspective.

You'll have to find what works for you, and then stick with it. Looking at the end of the runway, a mile or so away, most probably isn't the right answer, though.
 
The standard answers have been given and they generally work. Consistent seat height/head position is important. Being consistently on speed is important. The feel of the aircraft as it enters ground effect is an important clue. You won’t feel the aircraft with a death grip on the yoke. Stay relaxed, you can always go around.

You asked about leveling off. Yes, flying along a foot or two in the air above the runway is usually good exercise and some instructors use it as part of learning to land.
 
FastEddieB said:
An article I wrote for the COPA magazine:

33825964873_c3c953bfc5_o.png

33825965123_79b789b0cb_o.png
Click to expand...
In concur, Eddie. I was taking a lesson in a Super Decathlon several years ago and upon landing the CFI said “now transition your eyes to the end of the runway and hold it off.” Needless to say, it doesn’t work for everyone. I too, look around 50’ infront of me as I’m in the flare. What works for some, definitely doesn’t work for everyone.
 
I trim for the target airspeed, zero pressure on control column. My site picture is at the end of the runway. Slight back pressure to flair. Slight power adjustments as needed. Some of my best landings are when the winds/weather are not favorable. Don't loose focus, every landing is different.
 
I teach looking down the runway a ways, not necessarily the end of the runway but about 1/3 to 1/2 down. Whatever works and is comfortable for the student, everyone is different. Airspeed of course has to be managed, meaning try not to carry excess speed which results in more float down the runway, past your "aim" point. Slowly roundout, gradually increasing back pressure without "rising" or gaining altitude. If the plane begins to balloon on you, "freeze" your pitch until it starts settling again, and continue the back pressure.
 
Last edited:
In a response to my article, someone amended this to it:

“Note: A study performed by engineering students associated with the University of Michigan Flyers in the early 1970s in which a device that measured eye movement was placed on the heads of pilots who were making good landings agreed with the recommendations of this article. At that time a lot of instructors were stressing that the student should look well down the runway in the flare. When those same instructors wore the device that measured their eye movments and where they were looking, it was found that they focused near the left edge of the runway, about 200 feet ahead of the airplane.”

Someone here said from the backseat of a taildragger, they could stare at the back of the front pilot, looking “through” them but using their peripheral vision to judge height. I know for a fact that would not work for me, and it’s not really consistent with how peripheral vision works - it’s great for catching motion, but not so much for anything beyond that.

But, again, whatever works for any given pilot is fine. But when I see a pilot having trouble - for instance being slow to recognize a balloon or touching down too soon - my first instinct is to focus on where they’re looking. And getting them to work on that often helps.
 
One small thing that helped my landings... when you take the power to idle before flaring, don't just yank it out - decrease it gradually over 1-2 seconds. That way the nose doesn't drop precipitously, and you don't overcompensate by yanking the yoke back, rocking the whole plane in the process.
 
Everyone else covered it all above. The MAIN thing to know at five flights, is you simply need more time doing it, and a lot of the landings are going to suck. As you figure out your own methods, you’ll notice the instructor grabs for the controls less and less. It’s a learning curve, and there’s likely to even be some plateaus and backsliding, we’ve all been there.

That said, besides the techniques mentioned above, just make sure you’re really after it. No moments of zoning out for a second... if the aircraft is starting to go a direction you don’t want it to go, correct it immediately, and then assess and correct again, assess and correct again, never stopping. Full focus. No stopping or pausing.

If you’re tired and can’t focus fully, tell the instructor and stop the whole flight. Or go away from the airport and do some air work or something else for a bit. Landing after landing after landing is unfortunately, required, to get the muscle memory and lock in the patterns needed in the brain, but making perfect landing after perfect landing is also very draining.

Eyes down the runway, eyes at 50’, eyes anywhere outside that works for you to see almost imperceptible changes (at first) in heading, altitude, speed, and bank angle. Use parts of the aircraft as references. If the ground is moving up from under the cowl, sideways from that bug splat on the windshield, sideways under the tires out of your peripheral vision, all those things are not just clues, but movements that MUST be stopped by you moving a control surface.

You... are learning to be Pilot in Command. Command the movement. It can be done, and you’ll feel it when you have the visual cues locked to nearly automatic hand and foot movements. It’s a moment of pure enjoyment.

Then add your butt. Feel your butt. Is it moving in the seat? Add your hearing. Do you hear the airspeed slowing down a bit? Hear that tiny change in engine RPM as the oncoming air is slowing and the prop is also slowing slightly? Add smell. Smell the grass next to the runway as you enter ground effect?

LOL, okay it sounds all silly and Zen, and smell might be a bit much... but you get the idea. You’re likely VERY tunnel visioned on the landing spot at the stage you’re at right now, and it’s an effort to widen out the view and the senses a bit as you realize the airplane will fly down to the runway (if you trimmed properly) all on its own. The early learning process feels out of control and most pilots don’t like when the instructor has to grab at the controls and fix things, the annoyance is natural and good... you want to do it yourself. Just think of the instructor as your automatic butt-saving autopilot and focus on the landing with everything you’ve got. After a bunch of them, suddenly you realize you’re not thinking about it consciously nearly as hard as back on day one, or day five, or day ten... it’ll come.

Most folks post here at this stage out of that natural frustration, “What am I doing wrong?!” Nothing. You’re just learning.

Keep at it. Have fun. You’ll get a squeaker or two and be addicted to chasing them for the rest of your life as a pilot. Haha. We’ve all been there.
 
denverpilot said:
Everyone else covered it all above. The MAIN thing to know at five flights, is you simply need more time doing it, and a lot of the landings are going to suck. As you figure out your own methods, you’ll notice the instructor grabs for the controls less and less. It’s a learning curve, and there’s likely to even be some plateaus and backsliding, we’ve all been there.

That said, besides the techniques mentioned above, just make sure you’re really after it. No moments of zoning out for a second... if the aircraft is starting to go a direction you don’t want it to go, correct it immediately, and then assess and correct again, assess and correct again, never stopping. Full focus. No stopping or pausing.

If you’re tired and can’t focus fully, tell the instructor and stop the whole flight. Or go away from the airport and do some air work or something else for a bit. Landing after landing after landing is unfortunately, required, to get the muscle memory and lock in the patterns needed in the brain, but making perfect landing after perfect landing is also very draining.

Eyes down the runway, eyes at 50’, eyes anywhere outside that works for you to see almost imperceptible changes (at first) in heading, altitude, speed, and bank angle. Use parts of the aircraft as references. If the ground is moving up from under the cowl, sideways from that bug splat on the windshield, sideways under the tires out of your peripheral vision, all those things are not just clues, but movements that MUST be stopped by you moving a control surface.

You... are learning to be Pilot in Command. Command the movement. It can be done, and you’ll feel it when you have the visual cues locked to nearly automatic hand and foot movements. It’s a moment of pure enjoyment.

Then add your butt. Feel your butt. Is it moving in the seat? Add your hearing. Do you hear the airspeed slowing down a bit? Hear that tiny change in engine RPM as the oncoming air is slowing and the prop is also slowing slightly? Add smell. Smell the grass next to the runway as you enter ground effect?

LOL, okay it sounds all silly and Zen, and smell might be a bit much... but you get the idea. You’re likely VERY tunnel visioned on the landing spot at the stage you’re at right now, and it’s an effort to widen out the view and the senses a bit as you realize the airplane will fly down to the runway (if you trimmed properly) all on its own. The early learning process feels out of control and most pilots don’t like when the instructor has to grab at the controls and fix things, the annoyance is natural and good... you want to do it yourself. Just think of the instructor as your automatic butt-saving autopilot and focus on the landing with everything you’ve got. After a bunch of them, suddenly you realize you’re not thinking about it consciously nearly as hard as back on day one, or day five, or day ten... it’ll come.

Most folks post here at this stage out of that natural frustration, “What am I doing wrong?!” Nothing. You’re just learning.

Keep at it. Have fun. You’ll get a squeaker or two and be addicted to chasing them for the rest of your life as a pilot. Haha. We’ve all been there.
Click to expand...
Maybe you’ve been sniffing too much grass...
 
FastEddieB said:
Someone here said from the backseat of a taildragger, they could stare at the back of the front pilot, looking “through” them but using their peripheral vision to judge height. I know for a fact that would not work for me, and it’s not really consistent with how peripheral vision works - it’s great for catching motion, but not so much for anything beyond that.
Click to expand...

Due to wearing glasses my whole life, my awareness of my peripheral vision beyond the edge of my glasses frames is low. The world for me is seen through the glass, so my brain tends to ignore anything beyond the line where the world becomes fuzzy.

If I concentrate really hard I can bring it “back”, but it’s a lot easier for me just to remind myself when tired or distracted to keep my neck and head moving.

I look down the runway (the long look for me is really just a reminder to keep moving the head and not fixate in the landing spot), then look about 200’ ahead at the runway edge, then a glance out the side window at the height, then back to the far end, and all the while taking in those usually taught cues of movement versus a dead bug, a spot in the plexiglass, a mark on the cowl, etc.

So from my own personal experience, I’ve always naturally known that the “look to the far end” thing doesn’t work well for everyone.

As a general observation, watching pilots from the right seat and their eyes, looks very different for pilots with no glasses, either naturally or with contacts, than watching pilots who must wear glasses. Glasses wearers tend to move their heads a lot more. Non-glasses wearers, you see their eyeballs moving.

Both tend to lock their heads in place when they’re overloaded.

It’s an interesting phenomenon and hard to casually observe for a glasses wearer. In fact, to act nonchalant about looking outside and sneaking peeks at the student, I have to slightly angle myself in the seat in aircraft big enough to do it, toward the inside. Subtly, but it helps.

Otherwise even my “simulated” students so far, can see my attention and head turning their way, and sometimes you want to observe what they’re doing without giving away that you’re looking. :) You catch things they’re doing when their subconscious tells them you’re not looking. Especially when they’re not overloaded. Been watching a number of online CFI videos seeing this CFI behavior.

For those NOT studying to be a CFI, watch a couple of online flight training videos of an instructor you feel does a good job, and pay close attention to where their eyes are looking when they’re setting the student up for something new. It’s fun. Also watch for the phases of flight where they’re wide eyed and really paying attention...

There weren’t all these videos back in the day to watch and see these subtle things.
 
James331 said:
Once you get low over the runway, remeber it's alerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it pointing down the runway.
Click to expand...


For some reason that really alluded me in the first few lessons trying to figure out landings. You've stated it about how I needed it stated to me at that time. I couldn't articulate my confusion to my CFI well enough to get that answer.

Other struggle I had was continuing the appropriate inputs after touch down. In spite of repeated admonitions to "keep flying the plane", that also took a few lessons to stick.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
For some reason that really alluded me in the first few lessons trying to figure out landings. You've stated it about how I needed it stated to me at that time. I couldn't articulate my confusion to my CFI well enough to get that answer.

Other struggle I had was continuing the appropriate inputs after touch down. In spite of repeated admonitions to "keep flying the plane", that also took a few lessons to stick.
Click to expand...

Teaching paraplegics to fly using hand controls really brought that home to me: The pilot must mentally split his/her body in half, assigning drift correction to the top half and longitudinal direction to the bottom half.

When you get to crosswinds, remember to have into-the-wind controls applied or ready to apply as you begin the takeoff roll, and have them in the same position (or fully deflected) when the airplane decelerates to taxi speed.

Bob
 
AlleyCat67 said:
One small thing that helped my landings... when you take the power to idle before flaring, don't just yank it out - decrease it gradually over 1-2 seconds. That way the nose doesn't drop precipitously, and you don't overcompensate by yanking the yoke back, rocking the whole plane in the process.
Click to expand...

Let me add that the sooner you can be at idle, the better.

I like to be at idle at least by 100’, if not sooner.
 
denverpilot said:
Due to wearing glasses my whole life, my awareness of my peripheral vision beyond the edge of my glasses frames is low. The world for me is seen through the glass, so my brain tends to ignore anything beyond the line where the world becomes fuzzy...
Click to expand...

Really perceptive post. Explains a lot.

Thanks.
 
My first few lessons were in a lot of wind. I struggled also with where to look, consistency, etc.
Finally got some 0 wind at night, and did a bunch of landings. This allowed me to concentrate solely on two things.
1. Height of the plane above the runway (no crosswind worries)
2. I couldn't see very far down the runway so I got a consistent sight picture every time.

From that night on, my landings were better. When crosswinds came back into play, I was able to shift more focus on aileron corrections and less on height/sight picture.

Plus, you can knock out those 10 night landings in your log book :)
 
The tricks discussed in this website helped me. I had a bad case of the "bounces"! It got much better after I started moving my eyes to the side of the runway and a few hundred feet ahead during the transition.

https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/landing.html
 
FastEddieB said:
Let me add that the sooner you can be at idle, the better.

I like to be at idle at least by 100’, if not sooner.
Click to expand...

Depends on the airplane and how you like to fly. The Cherokee I fly likes a bit of power left on until transition, then gently to idle - a bit fast is ok, but definitely not slow (no energy for the transition). Cessna's tend to float with excess airspeed.
 
Thanks everyone for all the tips. These seem super useful and will definitely try them out on my next lesson
 
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