Landing at VFR Minimums

I'm not sure I could handle airspeed being alive AND ailerons active at the same time. That's yugeee!
 
James331 said:
How does that effect porpoising?

That's a completely different problem and has nothing to do with airspeed.
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"Porpoising can also be caused by improper airspeed control."
Airplane Flying Handbook
 
dmspilot said:
"Porpoising can also be caused by improper airspeed control."
Airplane Flying Handbook
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That is incorrect.

I can try to land at vNE, zero porpoising, now I'll just fly all the way down the runway and not land, but no porpoise. Vise versa, you can porpoise at a low airspeed.

Airspeed has zero to do with porpoising

That's caused by fundamentally poor flying skills and yanking forward and back on the stick like a mindless monkey.

F01LA said:
I always thought it was a factor. No? Below is an extreme example, but I'm thinking it's hard to porpoise like this when you cross the fence with minimal excess energy:

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It's impossible to porpoise if you pretend there is a ratchet on the yoke
 
dembro said:
Hi Everyone!
Glad to finally be a part of this forum - @mjburian has been telling me I should check it out for awhile.
Really appreciate all of the feedback that you've put together here and appreciate you all taking a look. Looks like my friend has answered a lot of the questions you have but I'll chime in here on the plane. And appreciate the piloting feedback - one of the whole reasons I'm excited to do this is to continue to learn (license to learn anyone?).
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Nice video, and looked like good experience. Sorry for the thread sidetrack about speed, just something I noticed.
 
dmspilot said:
Please send your corrections to AFS630comments@faa.gov.



That's actually not what porpoising is. You are describing PIO.
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Sent.


So if the pilot never puts the stick forward, does the ratchet thing, it will still porpoise if you cross the numbers at like 100kts in a 172??

If so, sounds like the issue now is a MAJOR rigging problem or a flight control failure somewhere on the plane.
 
James331 said:
How does that effect porpoising?

That's a completely different problem and has nothing to do with airspeed.
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One if the common bad reactions to floating due to too much airspeed is forcing the airplane down by lowering the nose, producing a nosewheel first touchdown and all its related consequences, including porpoising and wheelbarrow is. It's a classic Mooney error but works just as "well" with other types.
 
midlifeflyer said:
One if the common bad reactions to floating due to too much airspeed is forcing the airplane down by lowering the nose, producing a nosewheel first touchdown and all its related consequences, including porpoising and wheelbarrow is. It's a classic Mooney error but works just as "well" with other types.
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Bingo, not a speed issue, and crap reaction issue.

Just like stalls don't cause spins, crap reactions to stalls cause spins.
 
James331 said:
Bingo, not a speed issue, and crap reaction issue.
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That's going to be a matter of perspective. Some would say a very common albeit incorrect pilot reaction to too much airspeed in the landing flare has"nothing to do with airspeed." Others would say it has at least "something" to do with airspeed.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's going to be a matter of perspective. Some would say a very common albeit incorrect pilot reaction to too much airspeed in the landing flare has"nothing to do with airspeed." Others would say it has at least "something" to do with airspeed.
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Fact is it's a result of having a really bad foundation, getting trained by really bad CFIs and possibly having a few CFIs let some stuff slip on BFRs that they shouldn't.
 
James331 said:
Bingo, not a speed issue, and crap reaction issue.

Just like stalls don't cause spins, crap reactions to stalls cause spins.
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That doesn't mean stalls "having nothing to do with spins". Bad analogy.

If A causes B, and B causes C, could it not be said that A causes C, at least in part?
 
James331 said:
Fact is it's a result of having a really bad foundation, getting trained by really bad CFIs and possibly having a few CFIs let some stuff slip on BFRs that they shouldn't.
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Would a really bad CFI include someone who gets a porpoise and a pilot-induced oscillation mixed up, like you just did?
 
F01LA said:
Nice video, and looked like good experience. Sorry for the thread sidetrack about speed, just something I noticed.
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No worries! I can take it! I actually have a video in the can already where landing speed is a pretty significant plot point. How do you land on a spot? Good speed control!

Sounds like I should make a video about the centerline too, though I'm not sure YouTube's TOS will allow for any dry humping :rofl:
 
dmspilot said:
Would a really bad CFI include someone who gets a porpoise and a pilot-induced oscillation mixed up, like you just did?
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Sure I'm horrible, but funny thing I can cross the fence way over vref and NEVER have those problems, same with my students.

Probably just a fluke lol

Call it a tuna fish for all I care, it happens before or after the wheels touch, same chit, and the same fundamentals stop this from ever being a issue.

Again NOTHING to do with airspeed.
 
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James331 said:
Fact is it's a result of having a really bad foundation, getting trained by really bad CFIs and possibly having a few CFIs let some stuff slip on BFRs that they shouldn't.
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Perhaps. You won't get any argument from me that 100 kts in the flare will not produce a porpoise in a 172 if there is enough runway and the pilot continues to hold it off until the mains touchdown first (BTDT with a throttle priblem). And being at the perfect airspeed but putting the nose down will. But most accidents are the result of a chain of errors. In this case it's a bad approach with too much energy being compounded by forcing the airplane down. In your spin example, it the error of an unintentional stall being compounded by improper correction.

Good CFIs attempt to correct the chain at all of its links.

I guess we disagree on the definition of the word "something."
 
midlifeflyer said:
Perhaps. You won't get any argument from me that 100 kts in the flare will not produce a porpoise in a 172 if there is enough runway and the pilot continues to hold it off until the mains touchdown first (BTDT with a throttle priblem). And being at the perfect airspeed but putting the nose down will. But most accidents are the result of a chain of errors. In this case it's a bad approach with too much energy being compounded by forcing the airplane down. In your spin example, it the error of an unintentional stall being compounded by improper correction.

Good CFIs attempt to correct the chain at all of its links.

I guess we disagree on the definition of the word "something."
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Just saying both are problems, both need to be addressed, just they are different problems.
 
James331 said:
I can cross the fence way over vref and NEVER have those problems, same with my students.
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I'm sure you can, and I'm sure you can stall without spinning too. As can most (hopefully all) of us. I explained how that's a bad analogy.
 
dembro, enjoyed the vid. Was it cold out?? ;) How many hours do you have logged? Like you, I have flown with an experienced pilot in some really poor viz. Yours was invaluable experience so when you're VFR and not instrument rated and the WX takes a dump, you will have been there before. Last summer flying to Iowa the WX was CAVU until the last 60 nauticals or so, and then it dropped to about 6 miles very quickly. It was quite startling. But I had all sorts of outs behind me just like you and completed the flight without issues. My strategy is to be spring loaded to turn back and land. I've done it a few times and did not regret it one iota...except the one time at Joliet when I was forced to sit in a bar for a few hours and watch Geraldo!
 
iflyvfr said:
dembro, enjoyed the vid. Was it cold out?? ;) How many hours do you have logged? Like you, I have flown with an experienced pilot in some really poor viz. Yours was invaluable experience so when you're VFR and not instrument rated and the WX takes a dump, you will have been there before. Last summer flying to Iowa the WX was CAVU until the last 60 nauticals or so, and then it dropped to about 6 miles very quickly. It was quite startling. But I had all sorts of outs behind me just like you and completed the flight without issues. My strategy is to be spring loaded to turn back and land. I've done it a few times and did not regret it one iota...except the one time at Joliet when I was forced to sit in a bar for a few hours and watch Geraldo!
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Hey @iflyvfr - haha it WAS cold out, lol. 7F. Coldest I've ever flown was a few years back about -7F. That hurt a bit more, but luckily the plane's cabin heat can keep up. I have about 185 hours - about 1/3 of which is in J3s. I'm kind of surprised it took me this long to get to visibility this low, but agree that the experience was invaluable. Thanks for watching! Sorry about the Geraldo!
 
midlifeflyer said:
LOL. It's very common. It's actually from trying to put the nose on the centerline. Parallax skews our vision from the left seat resulting in landing left of centerline. It works the other way too. New CFI students are notorious for landing righ of the centerline for the same reason.

Most eventually figure out the answer is to put your nose*, not the airplane's, on the centerline.

BTW, I really enjoyed the video.

(*It doesn't actually have to be your nose, just something centered with you)
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Ok so this have bothered me for a while and it does every now and then.... it seems if I keep the nose of the plane aligned with the centerline, the aircraft nose wheel will be on the centerline, but that's not the fact....why?? My CFI taught me in centerline with ur mid torso, and it works

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
mjburian said:
No icing capability, but plenty of ceiling to work with for MVA and the like. I think we guesstimated the overcast layer to be about 7000' AGL. Also, as stated in the video, his "outs" were airports along the way that were still legal VFR. I just figured if things got too bad for him, we probably had an additional out by using SVFR or local IFR.

As for the active snow, I've never had snow stick and am told it's a VERY rare case that it will. Snow is not known icing, so that aspect would have been unlikely to cause any legal or operational issues.
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That's what I have been told too, snow is already crystallized form, unless there is most, or moisture in the air judged from temp, dew point spear, just snow is not going to stick

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
midlifeflyer said:
Welcome to our happy, although somewhat dysfunctional, family.
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We’re like Anna Karenina*, but with more airplanes!

* “All happy families are alike. All unhappy families are unhappy in their own way.”
 
OP, loved the vid, will subscribe. I am a cold flyer as well, venturing out tomorrow with a prediction -7 high . Welcome to POA, get an AOA, so that we don't have to argue about PIO and porpoise and airspeed

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Let's just say that excessive airspeed can be a contributing factor.
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Nope

Like I said, I can cross the fence at VNE in your place and never have a PIO or porpoising situation.
 
dembro said:
Hi Everyone!
Glad to finally be a part of this forum - @mjburian has been telling me I should check it out for awhile.
Really appreciate all of the feedback that you've put together here and appreciate you all taking a look. Looks like my friend has answered a lot of the questions you have but I'll chime in here on the plane. And appreciate the piloting feedback - one of the whole reasons I'm excited to do this is to continue to learn (license to learn anyone?).



It's a 172R with SP Mods - basically everything except the gross weight increase. I'm a part of a 14 person flying club that co-owns it - most of the group uses it as an IFR training platform and economical cross country platform. The plane has been as far as the Bahamas from Wisconsin. The IFR dudes dropped in a TON of glass panel stuff before I joined. Aspen PFD with a Garmin 750 plus a Sandia backup attitude indicator (our vacuum system was failing and it was cheaper to drop in the Sandia than replace all of the tubes and pipes). I will be the first to admit that I have no idea how to work all of the glass panel stuff to it's full potential yet. I ''grew up" as a pilot flying J-3 cubs so the massive amount of instrumentation was a bit of a shock when I got started in the club a few years ago.

In terms of pre-heating etc due to the cold temps, we do have a plugin heater that is basically always on this time of year and a nice blanket for the engine. We also throw on the oil restrictor and the cowl covers - once she's warmed up (gently) she's really great in the winter. No problem with heat in the aircraft at all.

Anyways - I'll answer more questions if you have them, really appreciate everyones feedback!
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Welcome aboard. I really enjoyed the video! Keep them coming. I'm close to my PPL and learning as much as I can. Youre a tail wheel pilot, that should get you far around here!

I'm learning in our 182, the heater rocks at these temps. That's why I asked about the jacket on the way back. My coldest flight was +4F this winter. The worst is the preflight and pumping gas!

I've been using the Halos lately and think they're awesome. Hopefully you figure out the glitch.

And sweet plane. With 14 in the club is it hard to get time?
 
Nice video. From a safety perspective, my only recommendation would be to find a better place to mount the cockpit facing GoPro camera. It seems to take a fair amount of space right in the middle and could block view of other traffic.
 
WannFly said:
OP, loved the vid, will subscribe. I am a cold flyer as well, venturing out tomorrow with a prediction -7 high . Welcome to POA, get an AOA, so that we don't have to argue about PIO and porpoise and airspeed
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Thanks for subscribing! Funny you should mention the AOA, that's the ONE thing my partners aren't interesting in spending money on for the plane. I even tried to explain about how fighter jets use it but....

Sinistar said:
Welcome aboard. I really enjoyed the video! Keep them coming. I'm close to my PPL and learning as much as I can. Youre a tail wheel pilot, that should get you far around here!

I'm learning in our 182, the heater rocks at these temps. That's why I asked about the jacket on the way back. My coldest flight was +4F this winter. The worst is the preflight and pumping gas!

I've been using the Halos lately and think they're awesome. Hopefully you figure out the glitch.

And sweet plane. With 14 in the club is it hard to get time?
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Thanks for having me! Jacket on the way back was mostly due to an extremely frigid and exposed preflight at KGRB. Gotta figure out what's up with the Claritys, I love the comfort. With 14 in the club it's surprisingly easy to find time (especially in the winter) - the only time it's been hard is when the plane leaves for a few weeks on a longer adventure.

Brad Z said:
Nice video. From a safety perspective, my only recommendation would be to find a better place to mount the cockpit facing GoPro camera. It seems to take a fair amount of space right in the middle and could block view of other traffic.
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Thanks! The front facing camera doesn't seem to block too much from the pilot's seat but you are correct that it could get in the way. Maybe it's all my J3 time where you can't see anything half the time that has me feeling more comfortable with it. That camera also really ruins the shot from the back of the plane. Some other folks have mounted there's up high, might try that next.
 
denverpilot said:
Half of my ratchets don't work right because they were cheap crap.
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this brand? :)
black_2_50.jpg
 
WannFly said:
Ok so this have bothered me for a while and it does every now and then.... it seems if I keep the nose of the plane aligned with the centerline, the aircraft nose wheel will be on the centerline, but that's not the fact....why?? My CFI taught me in centerline with ur mid torso, and it works

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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Why? For exactly the reason I said. Parallax. When we try to center the airplane, we look to close and the angle from our eyes to the nose of the airplane skews the view. On the other hand when we look further out and center ourselves, our eyes and brain work together to center the airplane. It's exactly the same way as we center our cars in the lane of traffic.
 
James331 said:
Nope

Like I said, I can cross the fence at VNE in your place and never have a PIO or porpoising situation.
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Yep.

Maybe you can, but a student is a whole 'nuther ball o' wax. As you know, there are many benefits to reducing airspeed to nearly a stall when you're two feet off the deck.
 
I just got around to watching the video. Well done! Great back-and-forth over the decision to divert, comfort levels, etc. Music wasn't terrible...certainly better than no music at all. And that tower controller at the end, she's great...superb enunciation and she didn't talk too fast.
 
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